What's with all the trade Smoove discussions

[Diesel]

Smith hurt his ankle in the beginning of the year. It wasn't a yearlong injury. Smith averaged 7 rebounds per game in April and 7.5 rebounds per game in March.

His best rebounding month was actually january. Do you think his ankle was less of a problem in january than it was at the end of the season?

The ankle sprain didn't stop him from shooting a career best 49% from the field, did it? If Smith could shoot significantly better from the field then why couldn't he score more points?

What you don't seem to grasp is that it is much easier to put up numbers on a bad team than on a good team.

Have you ever had a high ankle sprain?

You did notice that Smoove was not the ferocious dunker or shot blocker or rebounder we have come to know this year didn't you?

[exodus]

Have you ever had a high ankle sprain?

You did notice that Smoove was not the ferocious dunker or shot blocker or rebounder we have come to know this year didn't you?

Smith hasn't been a ferocious dunker since his rookie year and he has never been a ferocious rebounder.

His high ankle sprain shouldn't have affected his decision making. It shouldn't have prevented him from boxing out.

If his ankle was such a big problem this year how did he shoot a career best 49% from the field?

[NineOhTheRino]

I don't like Josh. He has a ugly game and has the basketball IQ of a rock. I'm not trading him though. He was the best player out there too many times this year. Even with all the silly jumpers, ball handling issues, and pissing contests with Woody he's still in that cannot trade category unless the Hawks can get future #1 option in return.

[Sothron]

Ah we're getting to some good questions at last. Why is Smoove considered such a great rebounder when, if you look at the numbers, he's actually one of the worst rebounding PFs in the NBA? He needs to badly work on his rebounding techniques, I blame at least some of this on coaching but Smoove himself has to take criticism as well.

[NineOhTheRino]

Ah we're getting to some good questions at last. Why is Smoove considered such a great rebounder when, if you look at the numbers, he's actually one of the worst rebounding PFs in the NBA? He needs to badly work on his rebounding techniques, I blame at least some of this on coaching but Smoove himself has to take criticism as well.

I think some research should be done on that. My guess is that Josh's rebounding numbers are going down do due the fact that his teammates rebounding numbers are going up. Horford, Zaza and Marvin are all good rebounders so it could be that there's not as many potential rebounds as in years past. Makes sense?

[frosgrim]

I think some research should be done on that. My guess is that Josh's rebounding numbers are going down do due the fact that his teammates rebounding numbers are going up. Horford, Zaza and Marvin are all good rebounders so it could be that there's not as many potential rebounds as in years past. Makes sense?

The answer to that is that the Hawks are a bad rebounding team. They routinely loose the battle of the boards. From what I see, its because Smith doesn't understand how to box out his man. Horford is only slightly better at boxing out. Marvin actually is good at controlling his man.

Smith could be a terrrific rebounder. But, he has to commit to it. I know a lot people say Smith should be working on his shot. I say the hell with that, dude has to work on his rebounding. More over, Smith just needs to toughen up mentally. He needs to get in the game from tip off and stay in the game. I agree with the notion that Smith has some potential left, but that potential is his understanding of the game, but that learning is blocked by his ego. Once/If he starts listening to coaching and understanding his role, he will become a better team player.

[Sothron]

I think some research should be done on that. My guess is that Josh's rebounding numbers are going down do due the fact that his teammates rebounding numbers are going up. Horford, Zaza and Marvin are all good rebounders so it could be that there's not as many potential rebounds as in years past. Makes sense?

Sorry, I can see where you would get that from and in some cases its true (Amare's rebounds this year dropped because Shaq gobbled up more than what any other Suns center was doing while Amare was there) but I agree with frosgrim's post. The Hawks quite frankly are a bad rebounding team. I again put at least some of this on coaching. We don't have many guys who position well, box out well or actually fight for a board.

[Brotha2ThaNite]

I don't like Josh. He has a ugly game and has the basketball IQ of a rock. I'm not trading him though. He was the best player out there too many times this year. Even with all the silly jumpers, ball handling issues, and pissing contests with Woody he's still in that cannot trade category unless the Hawks can get future #1 option in return.

That is a good way to put it.

I know a lot of ppl get sick of him trying to take the ball up court, jump shot and whatever but like Kenny and Chuck said, "He is our best value."

We have yet to see his level. This kid still have a lot of growing. He was our best in the playoffs. IF JOE would have atleast brought his "B+" Game and if Marvin/AL (with Chillz on our team :headphones: ) was not hurting I think we would be much happier today

[Diesel]

More over, Smith just needs to toughen up mentally. He needs to get in the game from tip off and stay in the game. .

Exactly...

Smith is soft. Mentally. Too many times (and I have said this before), you see Smith would have a dominant quarter taking the ball inside. Scoring on those driving hooks... then all the sudden the other team would hit him or knock him on his tail and Smoove would drive no more.

Exodus acts as if a High ankle sprain has no effect on how a guy plays? Exodus has never been hurt playing sports before. It's obvious. A high ankle sprain is probably one of the worst injuries that an athletic player can have. It makes you doubt your ability to land correctly. Smoove's inside play did suffer because he's already mentally soft and add to that an injury that sidelined him for 13 games and it should have been at least 24.

I think more than anything, our bigs (Smoove and Horf and Zaza) needs a big man's camp and a big man's coach that know what he's doing. Names that come to mind are Clifford Ray. Gar Heard. Even Bill Cartwright or Tree Rollins. If Horace Grant could come in and help? If Larry Nance was not busy. OUr guys lack technique and you're right, it effects their rebounding and their offense.

Can we borrow Charles Barkley for the Summer? Or Moses Malone?

Edited May 22, 2009 by Diesel

[exodus]

Exactly...

Smith is soft. Mentally. Too many times (and I have said this before), you see Smith would have a dominant quarter taking the ball inside. Scoring on those driving hooks... then all the sudden the other team would hit him or knock him on his tail and Smoove would drive no more.

Exodus acts as if a High ankle sprain has no effect on how a guy plays?

Please point out where i said that. :thumbsdownsmileyanim:

Exodus acts as if a High ankle sprain has no effect on how a guy plays? Exodus has never been hurt playing sports before.

Actually i have a bball injury right now. I was playing 1 on 1 with my cousin who is the leading scorer on his hs team ( I was abusing him of course) when my feet went out from under me. I landed square on my wrist two weeks ago and still can't do an open handed pushup.

Smoove's inside play did suffer because he's already mentally soft and add to that an injury that sidelined him for 13 games and it should have been at least 24.

Smith's improved inside scoring is the reason he shot 49% on the season, a career best.

[Diesel]

Please point out where i said that. :thumbsdownsmileyanim:

Back at Post #82 of this thread... You said that" his ankle sprain shouldn't have effected his decision making". I disagree.

[Diesel]

Smith's improved inside scoring is the reason he shot 49% on the season, a career best.

Actually, it was Smoove's improved shot selection. Yeah we complain loudly about Smoove shooting the three... and Smoove still has the taste for the outside shot, but this year, he didn't shoot it as much as previous years.

87 three pointers attempted...

vs.

99, 152, and 110 in previous years. Moreover, not only did he calm down the 3 pt shot but he also calm down shooting those long range ty Corbin toe on the line shots too. He did improve his ability to drive to the hole and score inside. He even brought in some twisting turning hook shot.

BUT

When Smoove is hit inside... he reverts to his Sf like play and he stands on the perimeter and he shuts down the drive. That's the mentally soft that I'm talking about. It happens to the best of players. Pippen for example. The Pistons knew that Physical play tormented Pippen. People say that Jordan had to become a great player before they could beat the Pistons. Really Jordan had all the tools all along. Jordan had to wait for Pippen to be Mentally tougher before they could beat the Pistons.

The same is true of Smoove. He has to get mentally tougher. I say let him work out with Karl Malone this summer... Run up those mountains in Utah and let Karl Malone beat him up in the post awhile and knocks some of that mama's boy out of him. If I'm Woody, I'm asking Malone how much would he charge to do that.

[exodus]

Back at Post #82 of this thread... You said that" his ankle sprain shouldn't have effected his decision making". I disagree.

So it was his ankle sprain that compelled him to lead the fast break and shoot 3s? OK

Actually, it was Smoove's improved shot selection. Yeah we complain loudly about Smoove shooting the three... and Smoove still has the taste for the outside shot, but this year, he didn't shoot it as much as previous years.

87 three pointers attempted...

vs.

99, 152, and 110 in previous years.

You really should never make a post that has any math in it. Smith played only 69 games this year, the fewest of his career.

Last season Smith took 1.2 threes a game. This year he took 1.3.

[coachx]

Actually, it was Smoove's improved shot selection. Yeah we complain loudly about Smoove shooting the three... and Smoove still has the taste for the outside shot, but this year, he didn't shoot it as much as previous years.

87 three pointers attempted...

vs.

99, 152, and 110 in previous years.

But he played in 12 fewer games this year. He actually shot more 3's per game then in the previous season.

In 07-08 he played in 81 games and shot 99 3's or 1.22 3pt attempts a game.

In 08-09 he played in 69 games and shot 87 3's or 1.26 3pt attempts per game.

It was not shot selection that improved his percentages. He actually did improve his post scoring.

[AHF]

Don't get me wrong. I think it's a great difference of playing on Kobe's team right after the Shaq trade than playing with JJ. JJ is a ball hog but not on the level of that Kobe. That Kobe shot 20.1 FGA per game. Joe has yet to reach that. Also, Caron is an agressive player. Marvin is not. That's the main difference. A non-aggressive Marvin passes too much. That Caron Butler shot 12.8 FG per game. Marvin has yet to pass 11.5. In fact, this year.. with the Sf spot being all his.. he regressed in FGA per game. Marvin doesn't have it in him to be a scorer. There's nothing blinding here. If Marvin played like Caron, maybe you'd have something. But Marvin plays nothing like Caron, AHF is just trying to make them fit because their stats (when Caron was a ROOKIE and Marvin a 4TH YEAR PLAYER) are similar.

Had I done something that preposterous and tried to sell it here, I would have been flamed to eternity.

If I compared Al Horford's stats to KG's rookie Year stats and said that Al is going to be the next KG, I would get flamed to eternity. It's funny that AHF has immunity on this kind of foolishness and that I get flamed for calling him out on it?

D - If you notice, the point I was making was not comparing Marvin to Caron and saying that Marvin is the next Caron. The point I was making was that there was no reason to expect that Marvin was done developing at age 22.

Use Rashard Lewis as an example if you want to go experience over age but the bottomline is the same:

Butler and Lewis improved significantly from their age 22 seasons. Both are similar impact SFs to Marvin. Given Marvin's development his first 4 years, there is no reason not to expect him to continue developing as many others have done before him.

Want another swingman? Look at Joe Johnson at age 22 or age 23 (when he had the same experience as Marvin). At ages 22 and 23, Joe had a lower PER and lower TS% than Marvin. He continued developing.

Does that mean Marvin is the next Lewis, JJ or next Butler? No. We'll see what he'll end up being. But the point is that there is no reason to see him as a finished product.

Same goes for Josh Smith.

Both have room to grow.

[Diesel]

D - If you notice, the point I was making was not comparing Marvin to Caron and saying that Marvin is the next Caron. The point I was making was that there was no reason to expect that Marvin was done developing at age 22.

But you leave out the most important part. Desire. Butler and Lewis didn't improve by Osmosis. They worked on their game.

You know I was just a kid. I was just 18 years old, excited about being drafted to the NBA. I felt like all of Houston was watching me. My high school was watching me. I think they had a draft party at my coach's house. I'll never forget that day, being in the green room with my family and my agent.

"As my name was getting passed, I couldn't even take it no more and I had to leave and go to the restroom because I didn't want nobody to see how hurt I was. So I started crying in the restroom while nobody was around."

He cried a lot that year. He sobbed on the phone while lamenting to family members about a rookie season in which he felt isolated from his veteran teammates and rarely rose from the bench.

You should read the whole story. It's one that tells you of his motivation. However, Marvin's path and Lewis' path are totally different. Lewis was a 2nd round pick who was benched and then passed up for Patterson. Lewis had to work hard for everything he has.

When Has Marvin had to work hard?

He was drafted 2nd not 32nd. We moved out Al so that Marvin could occupy the Sf position. We allowed Chillz to leave so that Marvin could shine. Marvin didn't have to play behind Schrempf or Rueben Patterson. Marvin's spot on the team was never in doubt.

And how about Caron?

The Draft , another hard day in Butler's life. Predicted to be a definite top 5 pick, Butler watched as player after player was taken and finally the Heat called his name with the 10th overall pick. All the time Butler was crying, not only because he lost millions of dollars in the drop down, but he again saw the cruelty of life. Apparently, agents mad at Caron for not choosing them spread rumors he had been shot in his knee in the past, dropping his stock.

Caron played the season as if he had something to prove to all the teams that passed him up. However, when it came time for Rookie of the Year, Caron Butler wasn't even really mentioned as he finished third to high schooler Amare Stoudemire and foreigner Yao Ming despite having more than 2 ppg than each of them.

We are finally back where we started. Caron is staring at the court as the Heat lose their ninth game of the season while he played just 11 minutes. Miami fans, always weary are already losing faith in the guy that averaged over 15 ppg. as a rookie, and Butler is feeling the heat once again.

But don't worry, he's faced worse.

In all honest, Marvin has been spoiled. Everything has been handed to him. Even Kobe and KG had to wait to be showcased. However, we have moved people to play Marvin and we wonder why Marvin is not at an allstar level. He doesn't have the motivation to be. When you get everything handed to you and you're slightly above mediocre, what's the motivation to be at an allstar level. Marvin wasn't passed over in the draft. Marvin wasn't sent to the end of the bench, playing 10 mpg as a rook. Marvin was given every opportunity to succeed and he's still a little above average. Let's stop the Marvin defense. His age doesn't matter. He's been a full time player in the league for 4 years. A starter for 3. He is what he is.

[00Blink]

No, it causes confusion. I didn't even know that you were responsing at all at first. I thought you just quoted my post without responding.

Then i looked through and realized you added lines inside the quote. I was able to tell what you wrote because i remembered what i posted. Somebody else reading it would have no idea who was saying what.

All of those guys were far better shooters than Smith after a few years in the league. There is no comparison. Smith has been in the league for 5 years and you would be hard pressed to find many guys who shoot as many jumpers as Smith and shoot them worse.

Okay, okay, point taken on the quoting and responding...sorry for the confusion my man. Will correct them from here on...they were better shooters, arguably but the point is they still had to CONTINUE to work on their jumper to be at the level they were at...just as the same that Smith will CONTINUE to work on his jumper to get to the level they are at...this kid got at least 10 more years in the league if he can stay 'fairly' healthy...10 years is a lot of time bruh

[00Blink]

Actually I never knew you posted anything in the post your referencing. I thought you quoted a person and forgot to add in your repsonse.

Its alwayse good to quote / post in a format that is reader friendly if you want your stuff to be read.

You say your not taking offense and then you take offense by saying don't tell me how to post....blah, blah, blah. LOL !

Dude is just trying to help you out !

Sooo, by me saying I can post how I like means that I took offense to him telling me how to post...nah...it doesn't and I'm sorry if you feel like I took offense...never

He stated his claim, I stated my claim...how is that me taking offense to it? I'm good man...and if you feel like I'm taking offense to your post...I'm not, just responding to your post :conversation:

[MaceCase]

In all honest, Marvin has been spoiled. Everything has been handed to him. Even Kobe and KG had to wait to be showcased. However, we have moved people to play Marvin and we wonder why Marvin is not at an allstar level. He doesn't have the motivation to be. When you get everything handed to you and you're slightly above mediocre, what's the motivation to be at an allstar level. Marvin wasn't passed over in the draft. Marvin wasn't sent to the end of the bench, playing 10 mpg as a rook. Marvin was given every opportunity to succeed and he's still a little above average. Let's stop the Marvin defense. His age doesn't matter. He's been a full time player in the league for 4 years. A starter for 3. He is what he is.

I have a question or better yet questions for you, I'm detecting personal bias here because you seem to be stating that you know the mental make up of a player as though it's a fact. I can read a fluff piece on practically every player in the league, they are all extraordinary people that come from extraordinary circumstances. What I want to know is how you can say Marvin is spoiled, has he ever at anytime in his career been given the ball and told you're the man go play and we'll sink or swim with you? How does a guy who's practically been designated as the 4th option on his team considered spoiled? Was Caron Butler spoiled when he started almost EVERY game of his rookie season? Did the Hawks add Dwayne Wade, Lamar Odom and had Eddie Jones in his psuedo prime and say to Marvin you're going to start ahead of these guys? Has Marvin not been amongst the top five best players on the Hawks since he's been here? So why not start him? You drafted him to help, how does he help you on the bench? Has he not thrived in his designated role as an efficient 4th option and exploded in production whenever options 1-3 have gone down? These are all question I have to ask you because unless you are Marvin's room mate or personal therapist I don't see how you can give such "accurate" measure of the man's character.

[AHF]

But you leave out the most important part. Desire. Butler and Lewis didn't improve by Osmosis. They worked on their game.

You should read the whole story. It's one that tells you of his motivation. However, Marvin's path and Lewis' path are totally different. Lewis was a 2nd round pick who was benched and then passed up for Patterson. Lewis had to work hard for everything he has.

When Has Marvin had to work hard?

He was drafted 2nd not 32nd. We moved out Al so that Marvin could occupy the Sf position. We allowed Chillz to leave so that Marvin could shine. Marvin didn't have to play behind Schrempf or Rueben Patterson. Marvin's spot on the team was never in doubt.

And how about Caron?

In all honest, Marvin has been spoiled. Everything has been handed to him. Even Kobe and KG had to wait to be showcased. However, we have moved people to play Marvin and we wonder why Marvin is not at an allstar level. He doesn't have the motivation to be. When you get everything handed to you and you're slightly above mediocre, what's the motivation to be at an allstar level. Marvin wasn't passed over in the draft. Marvin wasn't sent to the end of the bench, playing 10 mpg as a rook. Marvin was given every opportunity to succeed and he's still a little above average. Let's stop the Marvin defense. His age doesn't matter. He's been a full time player in the league for 4 years. A starter for 3. He is what he is.

I can't speak to what is in Marvin William's head or heart. I can only see that he has developed his game while in Atlanta and it has paid tangible results in increasing his efficiency and defense every year in the league. Given his age - which is definitely not irrelevant at age 22 - there is no reason to think that his improvement is done.

Marvin Williams is not "what he is" for the rest of his career at age 22. Josh Smith is not simply "what he is" for the remainder of his career. Both of these guys have room to grow.

It is like saying that Ryan Zimmerman or Randy Johnson couldn't move past mediocrity since they had years in the majors as a starter without showing that ability. Johnson had not had a WHIP below a 1.34 his first 4 full seasons in MLB. He then went the next 15 years without ever having a WHIP that high. Kids are not done developing in their early 20s regardless of when they start getting playing time at the highest level.

It is up to Marvin and Josh to make that happen and that will take commitment and desire on their part but they have shown improvement and development in the past so I don't see why we would assume it won't happen in the future.