Smooves trade kicker

[Diesel]

No, and I've explained this already so I am getting a little annoyed. There is no $5 million in the context of the trade, that money is paid upfront but for cap purposes it is spread throughout the life of the contract. Like I explained earlier you take the trade bonus and divide it by the number of years remaining and spread it evenly throughout the contract. I have no idea where you get this idea of $15 million.

D all the trade kicker does is increase the salary of Smoove. Originally Smoove would have a salary of $10.8 mil in the offseason. That means we can take back within 125% +$100,000 of $10,800,000(*) if Smoove does not have a trade kicker. Now because Smoove does have a trade kicker that means if we wanted to trade him this offseason we actually are bound to the rules of 125% + $100,000 of a salary of $12,600,000 instead of $10,800,000.

What it appears is that people are confusing a trade kicker with a BYC. These are not the same thing, a trade kicker is like an additional signing bonus given in the middle of the contract and treated like a signing bonus. BYC has to do with the first year of a contract where a player receives a substantial raise. Smoove's BYC status will wear off at the beginning of this offseason.

*Edit on second paragraph.

It increases Smoove's salary, but it doesn't increase his cap hit for us. i.e. Smoove is still a 10.8 Million dollar player for us... so we have up to 13.6 Million to take back for him. BUT depending on when Smoove is traded, his 15% is applied to the amount remaining on his contract (according to Coon).

For trades, trade bonuses can be a nuisance. When a team trades for a player with a trade bonus, it must count the portion of the bonus that applies to team salary in that season as incoming salary. Let's say a team wants to trade their $800,000 player for the player used in the example above, in the fifth season of that player's contract. Assuming there is no Early Termination Option or non-guaranteed season, the bonus counts $150,000 in the current season, so the trade cannot be made. The team trading the $800,000 player can accept $1,100,000 in return (see question number 68), but the player with the trade bonus counts as $1,150,000 in incoming salary.

[Guest]

It increases Smoove's salary, but it doesn't increase his cap hit for us. i.e. Smoove is still a 10.8 Million dollar player for us... so we have up to 13.6 Million to take back for him. BUT depending on when Smoove is traded, his 15% is applied to the amount remaining on his contract (according to Coon).

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but I am going to tentatively say no to you.

Smoove's caphit right now is what I first posted as a list in this thread. So this offseason it is $10,800,000. In the event that we trade him, the trade is treated as if we are trading away Smoove at a salary of $12,600,000. So we can take back up to 125% +$100,000 (=$15,850,000). However because Smoove has yet to be traded his caphit to us is still $10,800,000; the only time it changes is if Smoove were traded. Hence the name, "trade kicker".

We have more than $13.6 million to take back for Smoove, that is the number you came up with by taking $10,800,000*1.25+$100,000. But this is not the case because if you trade him his salary jumps.

[Diesel]

I'm saying...

The trade Kicker has no effect on our cap or what Smoove is worth to us. It only has an effect on the team that is getting him and their cap.

i.e.

Smoove leaves us at 10.8.

He cost the new team 10.8+15% of the reminder of the amount of his contract.

For Us...

Smoove = 10.8 * 125% + .1 = 13.6 Million (is the most we can take back for Smoove).

Smoove's trade kicker becomes a problem earlier and less of a problem later is what I understand from COON. So I don't think we have any designs on trading Smoove because of that complication.

That's why I say, a team accepting Smoove should either have capspace or an exemption or we need to have capspace. If we're both over the limit, trading Smoove becomes difficult because of the kicker.

[Guest]

I'm saying...

The trade Kicker has no effect on our cap or what Smoove is worth to us. It only has an effect on the team that is getting him and their cap.

i.e.

Smoove leaves us at 10.8.

He cost the new team 10.8+15% of the reminder of the amount of his contract.

For Us...

Smoove = 10.8 * 125% + .1 = 13.6 Million (is the most we can take back for Smoove).

Smoove's trade kicker becomes a problem earlier and less of a problem later is what I understand from COON. So I don't think we have any designs on trading Smoove because of that complication.

That's why I say, a team accepting Smoove should either have capspace or an exemption or we need to have capspace. If we're both over the limit, trading Smoove becomes difficult because of the kicker.

No, we are counting $12,600,000 as our outgoing salary in any trade involving Smoove and not $10,800,000. If you want a Coon description as opposed to taking my word for it, here you go:

84. How do trade bonuses affect the salary cap and trades?

For the salary cap, the value of a trade bonus is applied to the team salary among the remaining years of the contract (excluding non-guaranteed years -- see question number 91, and years following an Option or ETO -- see question number 50), in proportion to the percentage of salary in each of those seasons that is guaranteed. For example, suppose the player from question number 83 is traded at the start of the fifth season of his contract. Per the chart in that question, the actual value of his trade bonus that season is $300,000. If every season of the contract is guaranteed, and there is no Early Termination Option, then $150,000 is charged to each of the final two seasons of the player's contract, so a total of $1,150,000 is included in the team salary in each of those seasons. (Note that the allocation is not proportionate to the salary, but rather to how much of the salary is guaranteed. If the player from question number 83 had a higher salary in the sixth season than in the fifth season, his bonus would still be allocated equally to those seasons. However, if the sixth season was only 50% guaranteed, then two-thirds of the bonus would be allocated to the fifth seasons, and one-third to the sixth season.)

Suppose the player has an Early Termination Option following the fifth season of his contract. In this event, the entire trade bonus will be allocated to the fifth season of the contract. The player will therefore count $1,300,000 against the team salary during that season.

For trades, trade bonuses can be a nuisance. When a team trades for a player with a trade bonus, it must count the portion of the bonus that applies to team salary in that season as incoming salary. Let's say a team wants to trade their $800,000 player for the player used in the example above, in the fifth season of that player's contract. Assuming there is no Early Termination Option or non-guaranteed season, the bonus counts $150,000 in the current season, so the trade cannot be made. The team trading the $800,000 player can accept $1,100,000 in return (see question number 68), but the player with the trade bonus counts as $1,150,000 in incoming salary.

The CBA allows the player to waive part of his trade bonus, if necessary to allow a trade to fit within the 125% plus $100,000 margin. To make the above trade work, the player would need to waive $100,000 of his $300,000 trade bonus. The bonus would then be worth $200,000, and $100,000 of that would be allocated to the current season. The player would therefore count $1,100,000 as incoming salary, which exactly matches the maximum the other team can accept in return for their $800,000 player. The player is not allowed to waive more than the amount necessary to make the trade legal.

Another potential difficulty is that a team trading a player with a trade bonus uses the player's pre-trade salary (without the bonus), when comparing salaries for trade. Here is another example, using the same player as before. This time, let's assume our player has an Early Termination Option following the fifth season of his contract, so if he is traded during the fifth season, the entire bonus is allocated to that season. This means that following a trade, $1,300,000 is included in his new team's team salary. Suppose a team wants to trade their $1,400,000 player for this player. The other team can accept $1,850,000 for their player, and since our player counts $1,300,000 as incoming salary, there's no problem on their end. But our player counts $1 million as outgoing salary, so the most we can accept in return is $1,350,000. This means the trade doesn't work from our end. And in this case, waiving a portion of the trade bonus will not help.

For contracts and extensions signed after the current CBA went into effect, the player's salary added to his trade bonus cannot exceed the maximum salary for that year (based on years of service). For example, in 2005-06 the maximum salary for a player with 7-9 years of service is $14,400,000. If such a player has a $14 million salary and a $1 million trade bonus, then his trade bonus is pared down to $400,000 when he is traded. This happens automatically -- the player has no say in the matter. For contracts and extensions signed before the current CBA went into effect, the player receives his entire trade bonus, even if it causes the player's salary to exceed the maximum.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q84

So I retract "tentatively" from my last post and say "definitely" no.

[mrhonline]

From Sham (of "www.shamsports.com" fame):

He does indeed have a 15% trade kicker. He also has some performance incentives, which are currently listed as unlikely.

I must say, Sekou knows his stuff.

Waddaya think the incentives are? Must take less than three 20. ft jumpers per game?

:helpsmilie:

Edited May 28, 2009 by mrhonline

[mrhonline]

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but I am going to tentatively say no to you.

This site has been hilarious the past few days. Pure.comic.gold.

[exodus]

This site has been hilarious the past few days. Pure.comic.gold.

I got a laugh out of that too.

I don't see how hawksfanatic can explain this any more clearly.

[Guest]

From Sham (of "www.shamsports.com" fame):

I must say, Sekou knows his stuff.

Waddaya think the incentives are? Must take less than three 20. ft jumpers per game?

:helpsmilie:

Incentives complicates his deal a lot now. Damn Grizzlies, I wish we had an "in" on contract information on this site. Oh well.

[DJlaysitup]

Did Smoove's agent have enough sense to get an option out at 3 years? If he didn't Smoove should shoot him. :write a letter:

Well just wound him.

Edited May 28, 2009 by DJlaysitup

[NJHAWK]

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but I am going to tentatively say no to you.

Smoove's caphit right now is what I first posted as a list in this thread. So this offseason it is $10,800,000. In the event that we trade him, the trade is treated as if we are trading away Smoove at a salary of $12,600,000. So we can take back up to 125% +$100,000 (=$15,850,000). However because Smoove has yet to be traded his caphit to us is still $10,800,000; the only time it changes is if Smoove were traded. Hence the name, "trade kicker".

We have more than $13.6 million to take back for Smoove, that is the number you came up with by taking $10,800,000*1.25+$100,000. But this is not the case because if you trade him his salary jumps.

So if those #'s of $12,600,000 trading for $15,850,000 ( I thought you said 15 mill wasnt a valid # but whatever) are right then Smoove can be traded straight up for Bosh. Even though Toronto has to pay the kicker money they still save $3,000,000 next year and even more in the future because Bosh is going to make more than Smoove then unless he has a catastrophic injury. They also dont have to take on a useless filler like Claxton. So what the hell is all the fuss about we can get Bosh after all if he tells Toronto he wont sign there long term. Smoove plus pick 19 or a future 1st for Bosh. Toronto gets a young player with loads of potential and a draft pick, they save a bunch of money, they have Smoove locked up for 4 years before he can bolt and they dont let Bosh walk for nothing.

Edited May 28, 2009 by NJHAWK

[NJHAWK]

On a side note if Smoove actually had a trade kicker put in his deal that made it harder for him to be traded he must LOVE WOODY AFTERALL. LMFAO Either that or he is taking all those jumpers so we get fed up and trade his ayss so he gets more money.

[Guest]

So if those #'s of $12,600,000 trading for $15,850,000 ( I thought you said 15 mill wasnt a valid # but whatever) are right then Smoove can be traded straight up for Bosh

The numbers you had were incorrect because of how you calculated it and your complete misunderstanding of the trade kicker. You just guessed that the trade bonus wouldn't be the full 15% and be $5 million adding on to his $10 million salary (which was last season as opposed to this season). Then poof you said we can take back a $15 million player. That is what I was referring to you, a completely incorrect way of calculating something that we can know. You just happened to have an incorrect number that fit into the correct range that we could take back, which is what people call lucky.

[mrhonline]

On a side note if Smoove actually had a trade kicker put in his deal that made it harder for him to be traded he must LOVE WOODY AFTERALL. LMFAO Either that or he is taking all those jumpers so we get fed up and trade his ayss so he gets more money.

Oooh...Maybe the incentives are <2 arguments with Woodson per game. Or maybe <5 complaints to officials per game.

J/K

[coachx]

Oooh...Maybe the incentives are <2 arguments with Woodson per game. Or maybe <5 complaints to officials per game.

J/K

mrhonline,

Did you see the response you got on RealGM ?

Seems the guy who runs ShamSports.com answered your question. I found the pop up link on his website to get contract details he referenced when answering your question on Smith's trade kicker.

15% trade kicker ofr Smith per "sham."

Also found it interesting, that in his pop up box, the Kings / Bibby had a similar trade kicker, when we traded with them for Bibby.

[mrhonline]

Yeah, I remember hearing about Bibby's. It's one of the reasons his salary is so high this year. (Well like 10% of the reason, but still).

Sham is the one who responded to me on RealGM, so I'm not surprised to see that he updated his site...I know it wasn't there before. I checked before I posted.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=908659

My deliciously blue website of sex carries that kind of information, when known, via the "additional info pop-up" things below the salary charts. I've been trying to think of a way to make that a more practical application, since no one really uses it, but it's there all right.

^^^Sham is hilarious.

Edited May 28, 2009 by mrhonline

[NJHAWK]

Prolly why we were able to get him for a mere 2nd round pick and also rans.

Edited May 28, 2009 by NJHAWK

[AHF]

If Atlanta wanted to ease the burden of the trade kicker, it could include up to $3,000,000 to the team "receiving" Josh Smith, right? In future years of the contract, that might make a trade a lot more palatable.

[Guest]

If Atlanta wanted to ease the burden of the trade kicker, it could include up to $3,000,000 to the team "receiving" Josh Smith, right? In future years of the contract, that might make a trade a lot more palatable.

Yes, but that is treated as $0 in terms of matching salaries for a trade. The ASG would physically give whatever team they are trading to $3 million, but you can't use that to increase the amount the Hawks can take back.

I don't think the ASG would ever do that. For one, they are cheap. And two, in a trade involving Smoove's trade kicker they are already increasing their payroll just by trading him to a team that is also over the cap. So the trade kicker is very expensive for the Hawks.

[AHF]

Yes, but that is treated as $0 in terms of matching salaries for a trade. The ASG would physically give whatever team they are trading to $3 million, but you can't use that to increase the amount the Hawks can take back.

I don't think the ASG would ever do that. For one, they are cheap. And two, in a trade involving Smoove's trade kicker they are already increasing their payroll just by trading him to a team that is also over the cap. So the trade kicker is very expensive for the Hawks.

I wasn't suggesting that the $3M would increase the amount in terms of matching salaries. My thought was more along the lines of trading for someone like Bosh that the ASG would need to commit to pay a higher salary than Josh and helping to get the deal done with some money to offset the cost of the trade kicker to the other team. I agree that it is not likely given the cheapness of the current regime, but if they are willing to commit to investing in someone like Bosh or Amare then perhaps it would be a possibility (since in that scenario the fact that we are taking back more salary is an intended consequence of the trade and not merely an undesirable product of the trade kicker).