Marvin Williams...current worth

[DJlaysitup]

This is not a "flame Marvin" post nor is it a "Marvin has upside post"...it's simply a question. I posted this in this forum because there is a chance that Marvin will be moved or have a rough resigning.

Is the guy respected enough around the league to be a real trade chip? Most on HS know what they think of him - but do other teams see him as a solid part (starting 3) on a challenging team?...or would they see him as a 6-7th man who can score against the 2nd team.

Do the Hawks see Marvin as their top 3?...meaning SF. In this post I'm trying to look at Marvin (a F/A) as an asset. How much is that asset worth - as a Hawks player or as a trader. We all know we didn't get spit for our 5th pick (Shelden) - he was a throw in on the Bibby trade. I don't want to be negative on Marvin but I wonder how much other teams would really want him.

Personally - I see Marvin as an excellent backup SF who can hit shots and drive to the hoop against the other team's backups.

We need to TOTALLY forget about where Marvin was drafted and understand what his real worth is.

[NJHAWK]

If I have to place my bet on what will happen I am almost 100% sure Marvin will play here next year for the qualifying offer. Why? Unlike some I think Marv is a very good starting sf who can drive and get fouled and shoot very well. He showed signs of adding 3 point range and showed signs of being able to take over games in spurts. He is also a well above average defender. His drawbacks are #1.Injuries, Injuries, Injuries. #2. Consistant Aggresiveness. The injuries and in particular his back injury I feel will keep a team from giving him a Smoove like offer. The thing is I feel Marv is going to want a Smoove like long term deal, maybe a little less but not much less. For Marv to get an offer like that he is going to have to prove he can stay healthy and his back is ok. Teams are going to want to sign a player with a TMac like back problem long term. Translation: Like I said I would be shocked if anything but Marv playing for the Qualifying offer next season happens. Unless Chills needs a roomate, lol.

Edited May 28, 2009 by NJHAWK

[MaceCase]

Teams are going to see a young 22 year old forward with great quickness for his position, a jumpshot and willingness to drive to the paint that was able to put up efficient statistics despite being the 4th option on a poor offensive club. Coaches and GMs salivate on that, the prospect of having a talented yet under utilized guy come play in their system where they feel they can fix all their old flaws and unlock their potential. Guys like Diaw and Gerald Wallace come to mind but for every one of them you also have a Kwame Brown. With that said Marvin is easily worth 7-8 mil on the open market shading closer to 7, it may bother him like the 6 mill bothered Chillz but teams are looking more to get a steal out of him than pay him what they think he'd be worth. Because he's not seen as that great of an asset by US teams would temper any excitement they may have about him and lowball any trade offers they make to us, probably ask for an expiring and picks to go along with him. Make it seem like he's just a throw in when actuality he's prized.

[DJlaysitup]

Teams are going to see a young 22 year old forward with great quickness for his position, a jumpshot and willingness to drive to the paint that was able to put up efficient statistics despite being the 4th option on a poor offensive club. Coaches and GMs salivate on that,...

I understand that MaC....but we are talking about Marvin. Great quickness is a hoot...he can shoot an open jumper (btw open - setup WIDE OPEN)...He can drive to the paint against 6-6 guys....occasionally.

That's no offense against Marvin...he is a lard arsed 6-8 guy who is normally outplayed by an athletic 6-6 SF. But he can shoot - if wide open.

[thescout5]

I understand that MaC....but we are talking about Marvin. Great quickness is a hoot...he can shoot an open jumper (btw open - setup WIDE OPEN)...He can drive to the paint against 6-6 guys....occasionally.

That's no offense against Marvin...he is a lard arsed 6-8 guy who is normally outplayed by an athletic 6-6 SF. But he can shoot - if wide open.

Marv will probably back next year, whopee. :cant believe: He'll never be a go to player that teams need especially in the playoffs to win. Seems like he gets injured alot and disappears in games when you need production out of the small forward spot. Before long he'll want a JSmith contract and no way do I pay him but rather deal him for another piece of the puzzle. If I could move up in the draft this year to get a shot at a quality player I would do it. Some players have the smarts to play the game others don't and this seems to be lacking on the Hawks squad overall. There have been to many times where the ball seems to dribble off his foot or make a bone headed play for me to think Marvin will overcome being uncoordinated. I would love a player like Stephen Curry or someone else who seems to be in the middle of making big plays for the team.

Maybe some other coach sees potential in Marvin that's are hope to moving him to get someone that can produce during the clutch when we need it.

[MaceCase]

I understand that MaC....but we are talking about Marvin. Great quickness is a hoot...he can shoot an open jumper (btw open - setup WIDE OPEN)...He can drive to the paint against 6-6 guys....occasionally.

That's no offense against Marvin...he is a lard arsed 6-8 guy who is normally outplayed by an athletic 6-6 SF. But he can shoot - if wide open.

The point I'm making is that we don't value his talents and give him a larger role to work with. You look at a guy like Raja Bell who was just used as a defender early in his career, he gets with Pheonix and they expand his role to be an offensive threat. You look at Roger Mason Jr. this season with SAS, he was just another run of the mill wing that could play some PG spot duty for the Wizards and he goes over to the Spurs and is a counted upon as a clutch shooter nearly replacing Ginobili's production. It's not the players talents IMO it's the system. We can't levy blame on one guy for not being more than he is when we look at a overall scheme that has Josh Smith shooting threes, Joe Johnson dominating the ball like Wade, Horford gets three possesions in the post, Acie doesn't even recieve back up minutes and Flip Murray is looked upon as an efficient scorer. So yea coaches and GMs salivate at opportunities like this, they see one team's trash as their treasure. Of course knowing that we value him as trash they are not going to give us a shiny nickle for him, they're going to make an offer as if they're doing us a favor taking him off our hands. As you stated in your OP we're determining this without consideration for where he was drafted and better yet WHO WAS IN HIS DRAFT CLASS, the dude can play like it or not but he can also exist as a glue guy which seems to be the prerequisite of any SF in the LB/Woody "system"

[Brotha2ThaNite]

I can see Marvin being someone's rich Mickael Pietrus, but I hope he get that back problem together and be more. He has all the tools to do more.

A good defender, who can knock down the 3, drive to get to the FT

[DJlaysitup]

Maybe some other coach sees potential in Marvin that's are hope to moving him to get someone that can produce during the clutch when we need it.

Yep - JMHO - I hope they see him as a Diaw.....but I doubt it......sometimes you just have to take your medicine (like with Speedy).

[ATLBob]

The point I'm making is that we don't value his talents and give him a larger role to work with.

We can't levy blame on one guy for not being more than he is when we look at a overall scheme

Marvin is simply playing the role that he's been allowed to.

If you want him to score more, take it up with Woody, Joe, & Josh.

When healthy he played very well defensively and has been able to impact games without the ball in his hands.

8-9 million sounds reasonable all the way around.

If we have to include him to get a legitimate younger post presence, we do it.

younger rather than older ...

not younger than Marvin

[mrhonline]

This is not a "flame Marvin" post nor is it a "Marvin has upside post"...it's simply a question.

That's no offense against Marvin...he is a lard arsed 6-8 guy who is normally outplayed by an athletic 6-6 SF. But he can shoot - if wide open.

Lame.

[coachx]

If I have to place my bet on what will happen I am almost 100% sure Marvin will play here next year for the qualifying offer. Why? Unlike some I think Marv is a very good starting sf who can drive and get fouled and shoot very well. He showed signs of adding 3 point range and showed signs of being able to take over games in spurts. He is also a well above average defender. His drawbacks are #1.Injuries, Injuries, Injuries. #2. Consistant Aggresiveness. The injuries and in particular his back injury I feel will keep a team from giving him a Smoove like offer. The thing is I feel Marv is going to want a Smoove like long term deal, maybe a little less but not much less. For Marv to get an offer like that he is going to have to prove he can stay healthy and his back is ok. Teams are going to want to sign a player with a TMac like back problem long term. Translation: Like I said I would be shocked if anything but Marv playing for the Qualifying offer next season happens. Unless Chills needs a roomate, lol.

Well said !

[Kimsey]

Hmmm, as to MWs current worth? He should not get as much as Ariza, Hedo, or Artest and maybe Shawn Marion. I think the 09-10 pay scale for small forwards should go:

1. Artest

2. Hedo

3. Ariza

4. Matrix

5a. MW

5b. Linas Klieza

6. Matt Barnes

7. Wally Z

8. Steve Novak(6'10" 41% 3pt.)

9. Rodney Carney

10. Desmond Mason

Others: Quinton Ross, Jamario Moon,

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The think I think people keep forgetting about Marvin, is that he's one of the few SFs that can also play the 4. Marvin is just a solid player all-around, and I think people take that for granted.

Amongst small forwards this year who played in at least 60 games, he was . . .

- 16th in scoring ( 13.9 )

- 14th in FG% ( .458 )

- 5th in rebounding ( 6.3 )

Plus he's a good FT shooter at over 80% and a decent, but not great 3-point shooter at 35.5%. And he's a decent, but not great on-the-ball defender. He's not a star, but he's a solid SF in this league.

I just think people have short memories, because of the playoffs.

Ariza better than Marvin? Nah. Ariza just gets a lot more coverage, because he plays with the Lakers. Ariza is a very nice defensive player, but offensively, Marvin is much more dangerous. Ariza barely shot over 30% from 3-point range during the regular season. As limited as people think Marvin is offensively, Ariza is even more limited. Ariza has been fantastic in the playoffs though, I'll give him that.

Put Marvin on the Cavs, and Marvin INSTANTLY becomes a 17 - 18 ppg scorer. No doubt in my mind about that. He'd be the guy that LeBron could throw the ball to on the perimeter, for him to knock down the shot. And he'd be the guy who can get out on the break, and finish a fast break. Most important, he'd be the 3rd, sometimes the 2nd scoring option . . a position he doesn't have at times with the Hawks.

On the Cavs, and with LeBron's unselfishness, Marvin could get his 13 - 14 shots a game, while getting to the line about 4 - 6 times a game.

Marvin is worth somewhere between an 8.5 - 9.5 mill a year deal. And somebody will give him that too.

[pimp]

Marvin is worth somewhere between an 8.5 - 9.5 mill a year deal. And somebody will give him that too.

Do you think he is worth that much to the Hawks?

I think 9.5 mil would be too high of a price to match.That would seem like a bad investment, when you look at the Hawks record in the games Marvin missed, due to injury the last two years.I would prefer to do a sign and trade and receive two solid bench players for that price.

Edited May 31, 2009 by pimp

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Do you think he is worth that much to the Hawks?

I think 9.5 mil would be too high of a price to match.That would seem like a bad investment, when you look at the Hawks record in the games Marvin missed, due to injury the last two years.I would prefer to do a sign and trade and receive two solid bench players for that price.

I look at that 2 ways. And you're right about the injury situation. The Hawks will probably use that against Marvin, in negotiations.

If we keep this team as is . . with JJ, Smith, Horford in the mix, then 9.5 million may be too high for the Hawks to match. I still say the run we make last year during March, still happens with Marvin, because almost all of the games we won, were at home.

To me, the playoffs proved how much we need Marvin here, not the other way around. A healthy Marvin would've been a major asset, even when Horford went down. His shooting plus having another body to bang on the boards, may have made the Miami series a lot easier, while making the Cleveland series more competitive.

But we also have to consider the JJ situation after 2010. I think someone mentioned this in another thread, but there is a possibility that JJ simply opts not to re-sign with Atlanta, and wants to go somewhere else. If that happens, Marvin's worth here would rise dramatically, because we're going to need as many scoreres as possible to replace JJ.

If we lose JJ, I truly don't believe that we're going to be able to sign a major unrestricted free agent. So we may have to sign Marvin . . just in case. It may be better to overpay a little for Marvin, like we did with Smoove, than to risk losing him and not being able to sign a good UFA in 2010 ( if JJ bounces out ).

We might have to overpay for Marvin . . then overpay for JJ . . just to make sure we stay at playoff level. It'll be interesting to see what the Hawks would do, if someone offered Marvin a 5/50 mill deal or a 4/39 mill deal. Very interesting.

[thescout5]

I look at that 2 ways. And you're right about the injury situation. The Hawks will probably use that against Marvin, in negotiations.

If we keep this team as is . . with JJ, Smith, Horford in the mix, then 9.5 million may be too high for the Hawks to match. I still say the run we make last year during March, still happens with Marvin, because almost all of the games we won, were at home.

To me, the playoffs proved how much we need Marvin here, not the other way around. A healthy Marvin would've been a major asset, even when Horford went down. His shooting plus having another body to bang on the boards, may have made the Miami series a lot easier, while making the Cleveland series more competitive.

But we also have to consider the JJ situation after 2010. I think someone mentioned this in another thread, but there is a possibility that JJ simply opts not to re-sign with Atlanta, and wants to go somewhere else. If that happens, Marvin's worth here would rise dramatically, because we're going to need as many scoreres as possible to replace JJ.

If we lose JJ, I truly don't believe that we're going to be able to sign a major unrestricted free agent. So we may have to sign Marvin . . just in case. It may be better to overpay a little for Marvin, like we did with Smoove, than to risk losing him and not being able to sign a good UFA in 2010 ( if JJ bounces out ).

We might have to overpay for Marvin . . then overpay for JJ . . just to make sure we stay at playoff level. It'll be interesting to see what the Hawks would do, if someone offered Marvin a 5/50 mill deal or a 4/39 mill deal. Very interesting.

I think were overvaluing Marvin's ability especially in the playoffs. This year he was mostly injured last year he had one good game.No way do I overpay on Marvin until he shows he can be a factor in a playoff series. He'll end up staying next year so he has one year to prove he can be a factor when it matters in the playoffs.

[Wurider05]

People keep talking about the record after he got hurt, The record after he got hurt and stop playing major minutes was 16-14 including the playoff!! two games above .500. Somebody is going to pay this kid.

[bumpyphish1]

Without having read this thread I will say we are nuts not to sign Marvin, especially in this economy. I would consider a sign-and-trade but it would have to be a GREAT one.

I'll go back and read and probably have some more thoughts....

[bumpyphish1]

I'll just add that to me, best case scenario, he signs an offer with another team, we match it, and lock up Marvin for a relative bargain (ala Smoove last year). THAT is the way to deal with guys coming off rookie contracts...

[Diesel]

Teams are going to see a young 22 year old forward with great quickness for his position, a jumpshot and willingness to drive to the paint that was able to put up efficient statistics despite being the 4th option on a poor offensive club. Coaches and GMs salivate on that, the prospect of having a talented yet under utilized guy come play in their system where they feel they can fix all their old flaws and unlock their potential. Guys like Diaw and Gerald Wallace come to mind but for every one of them you also have a Kwame Brown. With that said Marvin is easily worth 7-8 mil on the open market shading closer to 7, it may bother him like the 6 mill bothered Chillz but teams are looking more to get a steal out of him than pay him what they think he'd be worth. Because he's not seen as that great of an asset by US teams would temper any excitement they may have about him and lowball any trade offers they make to us, probably ask for an expiring and picks to go along with him. Make it seem like he's just a throw in when actuality he's prized.

This is some of that Marvin fiction that goes around on this board. Marvin is not that quick. "great quickness"? ""great quickness"?? Fiction.

"A willingness to drive to the paint"?? What does that mean? I have the desire to drive to the paint, but I may or may not do it? Did Marvin all the sudden become Sothron? Fiction.

Here's the truth....

We're over a barrel. Unless your name is Paul Pierce or Caron Butler, teams won't go out their way to trade for a regular sized, regular skilled SF. SF is the easiest position to learn on the court. It's the easiest position to develop. That's why guys like James Jones and Wally Z could be starters in this league.

Here's a nice thing for you to watch.

I'm sure that Marvin will get less interest as a free agent than Wally Z.

And remember Marvin has "great quickness" and "a willingness to drive to the lane".

:newspaper: