Marvin Williams...current worth

[mrhonline]

Really?

You don't think that the better (perceived) players in FAcy gets signed quicker... or at least promised quicker?

So in other words, you're a GM with lots of Money... and Lebron, Wade, Bosh, and Kobe are FAs who are interested in good deals... and the first item on your agenda will be to sign Collison??

Seriously?

Of course not. Teams often sign unrestricted FA's first. It happens all the time.

[ngc7]

wally z better then marvin lol ..... marvin isnt the best sf in the lg but wally cant guard anyone lol

[MaceCase]

wally z better then marvin lol ..... marvin isnt the best sf in the lg but wally cant guard anyone lol

What are you talking about? The explosion Wally showed when he drove by an elite defender in Mo Evans and posterized him in the Cleveland series earned him an extra 3 mill alone in contract negotiations.

:rolleyes:

[Diesel]

In terms of what value the timing of offers says, then looks at Chillz. He didn't get a single offer from another team last offseason. Does that mean he is considered less valuable than James Jones? No.

Emeka Okafor didn't get an offer from another club, either. Both are a ton more valuable than James Jones. Guess who signed first? It wasn't the more valuable players. It was James Jones - because he was a low $$ perimeter shooting unrestricted free agent.

Bidding on restricted free agents is typically much slower. The speed at which they get offers is not a measure of value, it is a reflection of their contract status.

For starters, Chillz was in the same cap situation that Smoove was in. Part of the reason that Chillz left. He realized that we were not going over the luxury tax this past summer and that Philly was going to press us by offering a large contract to Smoove. When Sund held up the deal that Chillz was willing to make with the Hawks.... instead of waiting on Sund to wait until Smoove was made an offer (to match), Chillz just took the best offer he could. BUt Marvin won't be in a situ where we will be up against the luxury tax. We will have plenty of money to sign FAs with.

Again, you ignore the factors that I included. Okafor plays for a team that had more salary structure problems than we did. Their real only option was to negoitiate an offer with him because he turned down their original offer and made it known that he was willing to sign a 1 year QO....

[exodus]

When Dwight Howard or Chris Paul or Deron WIlliams were RFAs, how long did they have to wait before given an offer?

When were any one of these guys ever RFA's?

[AHF]

For starters, Chillz was in the same cap situation that Smoove was in. Part of the reason that Chillz left. He realized that we were not going over the luxury tax this past summer and that Philly was going to press us by offering a large contract to Smoove. When Sund held up the deal that Chillz was willing to make with the Hawks.... instead of waiting on Sund to wait until Smoove was made an offer (to match), Chillz just took the best offer he could. BUt Marvin won't be in a situ where we will be up against the luxury tax. We will have plenty of money to sign FAs with.

Again, you ignore the factors that I included. Okafor plays for a team that had more salary structure problems than we did. Their real only option was to negoitiate an offer with him because he turned down their original offer and made it known that he was willing to sign a 1 year QO....

Here are some of the many people who signed after James Jones last offseason. According to your "speed of signing equals value" theory, Jones should be more valuable than all of these:

JR Smith

Andre Iguodala

Ron Artest

Josh Smith

Emeka Okafor

Luol Deng

Gilbert Arenas

Corey Maggette

Baron Davis

Notice on this list (top of the list last to sign) that all UFA were signed before any of the RFA.

[NJHAWK]

Marvin will get more interest than Wally but you wont here about it because teams will be making trade offers or feel out Rick Sund to see what it would take to get him. Considering it was Aug 11th before Smoove was signed to an offer sheet I think Wally has alot better chance to be signed 1st. We know from last season how Sund handles RFA. He will simply tell Marv to go out and find an offer.

Edited June 2, 2009 by NJHAWK

[buckeye242424]

Marvin will get more interest than Wally but you wont here about it because teams will be making trade offers or feel out Rick Sund to see what it would take to get him. Considering it was Aug 11th before Smoove was signed to an offer sheet I think Wally has alot better chance to be signed 1st. We know from last season how Sund handles RFA. He will simply tell Marv to go out and find an offer.

Which isn't a bad course of action, IMO. Wait and see what offers he's getting, get a look at what other teams think he's worth, and go from there, we can always match. Who knows, maybe Marvin get's low-balled due to circumstances, economy/the giant class of 2010 - and we can sign him for much less than expected???

[Diesel]

When were any one of these guys ever RFA's?

That's my point exactly. Thanks Ex.

[Diesel]

Marvin will get more interest than Wally but you wont here about it because teams will be making trade offers or feel out Rick Sund to see what it would take to get him. Considering it was Aug 11th before Smoove was signed to an offer sheet I think Wally has alot better chance to be signed 1st. We know from last season how Sund handles RFA. He will simply tell Marv to go out and find an offer.

I still contend that with money to spend on FAs (something that we and a lot of the teams that AHF has mentioned didn't have), it's much easier to sign a RFA. For instance, for us, we have to sign Marvin or trade Marvin before we can sign any outside UFA. The reason being is that Marvin's caphold is keeping our spending at bay. However, if Marvin, Bibby, Zaza, and Chillz are "renounced" we have more Money for free agents than any other team in the league. SO there's definitely the impetus to sign Marvin or to make a deal with him quickly. Our team is in a place where we are in an important offseason. Unlike last year, we really don't have the time to dealy dally around because we have free agents that we can sign. All that said, I think that Wally Z gets a deal before Marvin. And if Marvin were an UFA, I would say that Wally Z still gets a deal before Marvin. Unfortunately, we can't run that experiment.

[AHF]

All that said, I think that Wally Z gets a deal before Marvin. And if Marvin were an UFA, I would say that Wally Z still gets a deal before Marvin. Unfortunately, we can't run that experiment.

If Marvin were an UFA, he would get a lot more $$ on that deal than Wally Z. That is more meaningful to me in measuring which player is more desired. Wally is going to get a pretty low dollar deal which means that teams will scramble to sign him on quickly because every other team in the league can afford him. Marvin would need to wheel and deal with teams because his figure could vary and teams might bid eachother up a bit. Much more complicated negotiations for Marvin's agent than for Wally's, IMO.

To me the amount you are willing to pay someone is more meaningful than how quickly you sign them. It is the guys who are getting 9M+ deals where the players know that this represents peak economic value for them and the guys who are getting low $$ deals that tend to sign the most quickly. That isn't going to be Marvin - he isn't good enough to be in the high dollar group (ala Brand, B. Davis, J. Calderon, etc.) or bad enough to be in the role player group (ala Brent Barry, James Jones, Jose Barea, etc.), but Wally should be in that role playing group. He can sign the next Roger Mason-esque contract and leave Marvin to negotiate to push as high above the MLE as he can get.

[exodus]

That's my point exactly. Thanks Ex.

Your only point is on top of your hat. Comparing a RFA to guys who were never free agents makes no sense at all. Comparing a role player to franchise players makes no sense either.

[Diesel]

Your only point is on top of your hat. Comparing a RFA to guys who were never free agents makes no sense at all. Comparing a role player to franchise players makes no sense either.

Those guys all had the ability to become RFAs. Funny thing.. is that they didn't. Their teams made sure that they signed them before anyone else could make them an offer. Marvin on the other hand may be told to go out and find a deal if he's not traded.... or renounced.

[Diesel]

If Marvin were an UFA, he would get a lot more $$ on that deal than Wally Z. That is more meaningful to me in measuring which player is more desired. Wally is going to get a pretty low dollar deal which means that teams will scramble to sign him on quickly because every other team in the league can afford him. Marvin would need to wheel and deal with teams because his figure could vary and teams might bid eachother up a bit. Much more complicated negotiations for Marvin's agent than for Wally's, IMO.

To me the amount you are willing to pay someone is more meaningful than how quickly you sign them. It is the guys who are getting 9M+ deals where the players know that this represents peak economic value for them and the guys who are getting low $$ deals that tend to sign the most quickly. That isn't going to be Marvin - he isn't good enough to be in the high dollar group (ala Brand, B. Davis, J. Calderon, etc.) or bad enough to be in the role player group (ala Brent Barry, James Jones, Jose Barea, etc.), but Wally should be in that role playing group. He can sign the next Roger Mason-esque contract and leave Marvin to negotiate to push as high above the MLE as he can get.

Without the confines of a guaranteed Rookie contract, who's to say that Marvin would get more than Wally. Remember, Wally Z was Marvin. Wally's 2nd contract was huge. Now Wally is a lot older, has been a bench player and he probably won't generate what Marvin will generate, but by that same token, at the SF position, Marvin is not much more talented than Wally Z. That's why timing is important.

It's like when you go to the store and you see two brands of window cleaner. One is $1.27 and the other is $3.50. Sure, there will be somebody that wil go with the $3.50 name brand cleaner because of it's name... but I betcha bottom dollar that the $1.27 window Cleaner will get pulled off the shelf first... and probably over and over again before the sucker comes in an pay $3.50 for the same stuff.

My point is... Marvin is a Sf. He's not a great or legendary Sf, he's a SF. Wally Z is going to be a cheaper Sf. There will be more interest in getting a cheaper Wally Z than spending a lot of money on Marvin. Because at the end of the day, Wally is probably going to match Marvin's production at a cheaper price.

[exodus]

Those guys all had the ability to become RFAs. Funny thing.. is that they didn't. Their teams made sure that they signed them before anyone else could make them an offer. Marvin on the other hand may be told to go out and find a deal if he's not traded.... or renounced.

In their case there was no reason to negotiate because they were max players.

Comparing Marvin to a max player is just dumb. Might as well compare him to Lebron or Wade.

Given the fact that both Smith and Childress were told to go out and find a deal it is likely the same thing will happen with Marvin.

[Diesel]

Given the fact that both Smith and Childress were told to go out and find a deal it is likely the same thing will happen with Marvin.

Smith and CHillz were told to go find a deal in a time when we were OVER the Cap and facing the LT. Sund has never been a frugal GM (Check his record). Marvin is a FA in a time when we will have Bibby's 15 Million off the books. Zaza's 4 Million off the books. ANd Marvin's own ~7 Million off the books. In a time when we need financial clarity in order to go after free agents, if we tell Marvin to go find a deal, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. Hence, I think Marvin will either be lowballed or traded.

[exodus]

Smith and CHillz were told to go find a deal in a time when we were OVER the Cap and facing the LT.

Wrong. Sund did it because that is what he does. He did the exact same thing with Ray Allen and Rashard. He did the same thing with Wilcox. Sund's pattern has been very clear and it has nothing to do with the cap.

So who are the high profile free agents that Sund has signed early?

In a time when we need financial clarity in order to go after free agents

We don't need any clarity at all. With all the cap holds the hawks have they are effectively over the cap in terms of signing free agents.

[Diesel]

We don't need any clarity at all. With all the cap holds the hawks have they are effectively over the cap in terms of signing free agents.

That's exactly what I meant by financial clarity to go after free agents. We have to CLEAR these cap holds. For us to hold our sack while RFA Marvin seeks out a team that will pay him what he's not worth is us shooting ourselves in the foot. We have to either low ball him or trade him. We can't overpay him and we can't allow him to Neander around looking for an impossible deal. We're up against 2010. Who do you think will empty their coffers for an average Sf. I say Sund just jumps out with a 5 year 33 Million dollar deal and leave it at that or trade Marvin.

We have the potential to go after guys like Sessions or Kidd and we have the ability to go after bigs like Wilcox or possibly Boozer. We can't waste that opp.

BTW, you know nobody expected Lewis to sign the 7 year extension that he signed when Sund was the GM? You know that most felt that the Sonics reached?

[Diesel]

We don't need any clarity at all. With all the cap holds the hawks have they are effectively over the cap in terms of signing free agents.

That's exactly what I meant by financial clarity to go after free agents. We have to CLEAR these cap holds. For us to hold our sack while RFA Marvin seeks out a team that will pay him what he's not worth is us shooting ourselves in the foot. We have to either low ball him or trade him. We can't overpay him and we can't allow him to Neander around looking for an impossible deal. We're up against 2010. Who do you think will empty their coffers for an average Sf. I say Sund just jumps out with a 5 year 33 Million dollar deal and leave it at that or trade Marvin.

We have the potential to go after guys like Sessions or Kidd and we have the ability to go after bigs like Wilcox or possibly Boozer. We can't waste that opp.

BTW, you know nobody expected Lewis to sign the 7 year extension that he signed when Sund was the GM? You know that most felt that the Sonics reached?

[AHF]

Without the confines of a guaranteed Rookie contract, who's to say that Marvin would get more than Wally. Remember, Wally Z was Marvin. Wally's 2nd contract was huge. Now Wally is a lot older, has been a bench player and he probably won't generate what Marvin will generate, but by that same token, at the SF position, Marvin is not much more talented than Wally Z. That's why timing is important.

It's like when you go to the store and you see two brands of window cleaner. One is $1.27 and the other is $3.50. Sure, there will be somebody that wil go with the $3.50 name brand cleaner because of it's name... but I betcha bottom dollar that the $1.27 window Cleaner will get pulled off the shelf first... and probably over and over again before the sucker comes in an pay $3.50 for the same stuff.

My point is... Marvin is a Sf. He's not a great or legendary Sf, he's a SF. Wally Z is going to be a cheaper Sf. There will be more interest in getting a cheaper Wally Z than spending a lot of money on Marvin. Because at the end of the day, Wally is probably going to match Marvin's production at a cheaper price.

This is an easy question to answer.

Marvin will get a lot more than Wally because:

First, Marvin is a vastly superior defender relative to Wally's porous game.

Second, Marvin is a better player and is improving every year while Wally's game is in decline every year as he advances in his 30's.

2006-07 Marvin Age 20, PER 12.2; Wally Age 29, PER 14.2

2007-08 Marvin Age 21, PER 14.5; Wally Age 30, PER 13.9

2008-09 Marvin Age 22, PER 16.0; Wally Age 31, PER 12.1

* * *

This is an absolute no-brainer that Marvin makes more than Wally next season as an UFA.