Reconstructing Hawks frontcourt is only way to win championship

[HAWKS1986]

Orlando isn't in the NBA Finals by accident. The Magic has the right formula to be a perennial powerhouse with their style of play, and they were able to overcome defensive-minded Philly, the resilient world-champ Celtics and the one-man show Cavs.

Hedo and Rashard Lewis along with Mikael Pietrus made life hard for the Cavs and denied Lebron his moment. Dwight Howard was a target by refs, but the Magic balance and versatility from its forwards helped them down the stretch in support of Howard.

The way Rashard Lewis made timely threes is what the Hawks needed from Marvin Williams. Marvin is capable of doing what Rashard and Hedo, but Marvin doesn't want to take on that leadership mantle. Hedu plays more like a point forward at 6'10 and has better ball handling skills than Josh Smith and shoots the better than Josh.

Al Horford plays a lot of minutes, but his lack of an offensive skillset further puts the Hawks at a disadvantage against better teams--especially in a playoff series. I hope Horford works on his jumper during the summer, because it has to improve to the point that he shouldn't shy away from open 15 ft. jumpers--ever...

Denver has a more talented team than the Hawks, but Kenyon Martin, Chris Anderson and Nene aren't foing to step out and be a three-point threat unlike Lamar Odom and Trevor Ariza for the Lakers, plus Gasol...

When Chauncey won his championship with the Pistons, he had Rasheed Wallace and Tayshun Prince shooting timely threes, this was a dynamic that Billups' Denver team didn't have and it gave the Lakers the edge.

Cleveland don't have a point forward like the Magic or Lakers or the old Pistons teams..Ben Wallace? Varejo? Big Z? It does make a difference...

Al Horford is tradeable, so is Josh Smith. This Hawks team need to find forwards who are offensively versatile like a charlie Villneuva. He may not be a shot blocking threat, but Villneuva can influence a game offensively and provide support for Joe Johnson and stretch the floor with shooters..

Edited May 31, 2009 by HAWKS1986

[DJlaysitup]

Orlando isn't in the NBA Finals by accident. The Magic has the right formula to be a perennial powerhouse with their style of play, and they were able to overcome defensive-minded Philly, the resilient world-champ Celtics and the one-man show Cavs.

Hedo and Rashard Lewis along with Mikael Pietrus made life hard for the Cavs and denied Lebron his moment. Dwight Howard was a target by refs, but the Magic balance and versatility from its forwards helped them down the stretch in support of Howard.

The way Rashard Lewis made timely threes is what the Hawks needed from Marvin Williams. Marvin is capable of doing what Rashard and Hedo, but Marvin doesn't want to take on that leadership mantle. Hedu plays more like a point forward at 6'10 and has better ball handling skills than Josh Smith and shoots the better than Josh.

Al Horford plays a lot of minutes, but his lack of an offensive skillset further puts the Hawks at a disadvantage against better teams--especially in a playoff series. I hope Horford works on his jumper during the summer, because it has to improve to the point that he shouldn't shy away from open 15 ft. jumpers--ever...

Denver has a more talented team than the Hawks, but Kenyon Martin, Chris Anderson and Nene aren't foing to step out and be a three-point threat unlike Lamar Odom and Trevor Ariza for the Lakers, plus Gasol...

When Chauncey won his championship with the Pistons, he had Rasheed Wallace and Tayshun Prince shooting timely threes, this was a dynamic that Billups' Denver team didn't have and it gave the Lakers the edge.

Cleveland don't have a point forward like the Magic or Lakers or the old Pistons teams..Ben Wallace? Varejo? Big Z? It does make a difference...

Al Horford is tradeable, so is Josh Smith. This Hawks team need to find forwards who are offensively versatile like a charlie Villneuva. He may not be a shot blocking threat, but Villneuva can influence a game offensively and provide support for Joe Johnson and stretch the floor with shooters..

This isn't the NFL....it's a five player game....usually the best player wins...and power players like Superman seem to dominate.

Edited May 31, 2009 by DJlaysitup

[MaceCase]

Wait im confused.......we hate that our forwards play on the perimeter so your answer is to get forwards that play on the perimeter?

[HAWKS1986]

Wait im confused.......we hate that our forwards play on the perimeter so your answer is to get forwards that play on the perimeter?

Not exactly. Josh Smith generally plays on the perimeter (anyway), but can't shoot consistently. Marvin plays on the perimeter (generally) and WON'T SHOOT. In comparison Miami's Michael Beasley has a more mature offensive skillset as he had showed in the Miami series and can rebound as well. The Hawks should look at how other teams have won and the type of players they had on the roster.

We need better players who can shoot the ball! Beasley, Rashad Lewis, Kevin Durant, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber, Rasheed Wallace, Teyshaun Prince,Hedu are examples of forwards who already had a complete offensive skillset as forwards (coming into the NBA) and provided a dynamic that help their teams stretch the floor...

[HAWKS1986]

This isn't the NFL....it's a five player game....usually the best player wins...and power players like Superman seem to dominate.

Lebron was the 'best' player, but you saw what happened... Lebron's smallish, inconsistent supporting cast (Mo Williams 6', West 6'3) were the only ones really getting things done from the perimeter for the Cavs, but Hedu, a 6'10 forward was having double digit assist games and providing a consistent three-point threat and Rashard Lewis at 6'10 was winning his matchup and constantly getting open, uncontested jumpers...plus Michael Pietrus at 6'7, hit impact jumpers and was defending Lebron... When Cleveland faced the Hawks, Joe Johnson at 6'8 was the only player the Cavs really worried about... and he had to guard Lebron and be the primary scoring threat...

The Cavs were daring Josh Smith to shoot...and he couldn't give the Hawks that threat.. and Marvin already had the 'injury-excuse', but he has always been a RELUCTANT SCORER outside the three-point circle... The Cavs were able to turn it on and the Hawks just didn't have enough talent to overcome... Plus, against Boston, we would have had problems.... Lebron got the benefit of calls and tried to do the same thing to the Magic, but the Magic's verstatility of talent didn't allow that strategy to work...

The refs had Dwight in foul trouble and were calling technical in an effort to limit him and make him tenative, but Dwight's supporting cast (who are really 'point forwards') who can hit those impact three point shots was the equalizer.

Outside of Joe Johnson, the Hawks have a smallest backcourt led by Bibby who is not athletic, doesn't drive to the basket and struggles with his shot and a frontcourt that already lacks size, but collectively have a lacking offensive skillset... (Josh, Al, Zaza, Solo, Marvin) Our frontcourt is smallish and offers no offensive threat outside of dunks and stick-backs...

The Hawks' frontcourt has to be reconstructed...if that means Horford is relegated to being a bench player playing 20 minutes, or if Marvin is traded and if Josh is used as possible trade bait then so be it..however, we are not going to win a championship or even compete for a conference championship with this frontcourt...

The Pistons had Prince/Rasheed Wallace (6'10) during their championship run... The Lakers have Odom (6'10) /Ariza (6'9)/Walton..The Magic has Hedu (6'10) /Pietrus(6'7)/Lewis (6'10)....The Spurs had Bruce Bowen (6'7)/Robert Horry(6'9) hitting impact three-point jumpers..

Instead of that franchise center which won't come anytime soon, the HAwks need to diversify their draft/free agent strategy and find more versatile players who can play the forward spot...

Edited May 31, 2009 by HAWKS1986

[TheDude]

Orlando's offensive style is unique. Well not unique but not very common. They have a big man who dominates the paint. So on offense they don't have to have their power forward down there helping to rebound. Since their power forward can shoot 3's, they simply put 4 men on the perimeter and when Dwight is double-teamed, he kicks it out to whoever is open and they may swing it or shoot it. If he's not double-teamed, he dominates his man. Very easy and effective plan but they have the folks to do it.

HOwever what gets lost in that, is that they play good defense. Otherwise they'd be trying to outscore folks. It's the defense that allows that offense scheme to work (depending on the 3's to be there). Those same shooters can play defense also and Howard in the paint provides that catalyst or focal point of the defense. Every easy shot (ones closer to the basket) are contested.

If you have someone like Villenueava, you aren't going to get that and the defensive part will suffer. HOnestly we cannot imitate Orlando's offense anyway because we don't have a dwight howard. That's not Horfords fault, theres not many dwight howards out there. Not many teams could imitate Orlando's offense due to the lack of dwight howards out there. This is why having a dominating center makes life so easy.

Now that's not to say Horford can't improve to the point where he requires a double team at least some of the time, and then the kickouts become more effective.

Honestly I think if the following things happened, we would be a much better team. Good enough to beat ORlando or Cleveland? who knows we are far away from them right now.

- get a point guard that can play defense and also shoot enough not to be a liability...the fact that Bibby got driven on so many times caused our big men to get put out of position. countless times i heard the announcer say the other team thought they could take advantage of bibby on defense. if this is nipped in the bud, our defense becomes that much better. if that point guard can set up others, BONUS.

- josh smith must be able to hit that midrange jumpshot at a high percentage clip...forget the 3's, focus right now on the midrange...you can move it out later..but if he can hit that midrange, teams cant' sag on him and his drive on opposing big men (a big advantage he has) becomes dangerously effective...

-horford has to get more post moves and a consistent midrange jumper...he can't be the lost soul on offense that nobody watches....all players on the court must for the most part be a weapon on offense..

- joe has to get a big better at passing out of the double-team...we need to have an automatic few plays to go to that a soon as he gets double-teamed, we get an advantage because we are prepared for it. make people cover him one-on-one...think about it in the playoffs for the most part you see kobe and lebron getting single teamed by their best defender and only get double-teamed if they get close to the basket...joe on the other hand would be double-teamed on the perimeter...we need to learn how to deal with that much much better...if you stop people from doing that, joe 1) doesnt get as tired and 2) doesnt fade in big games (when opposing teams focus on the double-team).

- a better or additional offensive system needs to be implemented in the offseason so we aren't so easy to defend...

[HAWKS1986]

DocHawk,

You make some very good points...

Dwight Howard is a special talent, and he is dominant--defensively. However, he isn't Shaq dominant (in his prime) or has the versatility of a Tim Duncan (right now). Howard is unique player who is still growing...there was an interview this morning with ESPN's Rachel Nichols and Patrick Ewing said Dwight has only reached 30% of his full potential...

The Hawks need a more defensive minded center (at least 7ft) who can anchor the middle who can stay healthy-- and someone who can come off the bench and provide a defensive presence as well (Randolph Morris isn't the answer). It's difficult to find that player, but if we can't find the complete package, then there are good substitutes... In the 1980's, we had Tree Rollins, he hit the majority of his free throws when fouled and was mainly a dominant defensive force and had an impact on the game.

In regards to our forwards, we need a Kevin Durant, Michael Beasley-type player who has an existing, mature offensive skillset coming into the NBA...Josh Smith is still raw, undisciplined after four years and still is an erratic perimeter shooter and Marvin Williams is more talented, but he is reluctant to fully utilize his skillset in game situations on a consistent basis and has to be forced to shoot beyond the three-point arc byt he coaching staff.

The way the Hawks are currently constructed, we have no real chance to beat Boston, Cleveland or Orlando for 2010...Garnett will be back next year, Glen Davis is getting better, Kendrick Perkins has matured along with the triple double threat Rondo...so beating Boston will difficult for 2009-2010... Lebron will push management this offseason to find a 'point forward' and they will be tougher to beat ...

And Miami has the versatile 6'10 Beasley right now with Wade, but if they try to get Chris Bosh or a Charlie Villeneuva in the offseason, then the Hawks chances of beating Miami will shrink especially as Mario Chalmers gain more confidence/experience...and don't forget Washington with Arenas coming back...

** Michael Jordan didn't have a dominant center or a Dwight Howard-type talent...they had Bill Cartwright and the pesky Dennis Rodman, but during part of that Bulls' run of championship, Jordan's Bulls had the 6'8 point forward Scottie Pippen and the 6'10 point forward Toni Kukoc..both were bigger players with guard skills and strong offensive skillset and provided mismatches (in addition to Jordan)... The Hawks' Joe Johnson is really the only mismatch we have, and that's a problem..

** Detroit's 6'11 Rasheed Wallace wasn't a dominant front court player, but he blocked shots, rebounded and shot threes (especially late in games)... and 6'9 Teyshaun Prince did the exact same thing as a forward...

Dwight Howard deserves props, but the Magic did a better job of finding the right type of versatile players to help get them over the top...

With the Hawks, it always come down to Joe Johnson or Bibby taking the last shot in a contested game...but with Orlando look at the versatility from their point forwards and confidence they have in the 6'10 Rashard Lewis taking a last second shot to take Game 4 into overtime vs. the Cavs or the 6'11 Hedu taking a shot to seal a win and occasionally Dwight is able to beat his man for a few dunks..or even 6'8 Michael Peitrus making an impact three point shot ...

[MaceCase]

Generally speaking don't we already have the pieces to play with and better yet defend against these squads? Aside from defense at the point and an extra two inches in the middle we have players athletic enough, strong enough and long enough to go against these guys. We're overlooking a major part is that our guys are still early in their maturation, Hedo, Rashard, Wallace, Odom are all in their 30s before they achieved what they have. Durant and Beasley are excellent scorers but are deficient in defense whereas our guys have a better mix of both. We have the players in our core and they are only going to get better but of course we lack that depth on the bench that these finals teams have and the scheme to make us competitive with them. Bring in a competent pg that can stop penetration, slash and dish some, bring back Chills to be that point forward, add two more NBA skilled bigs for depth and who's to say we won't be as good as those guys next year?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

To me, the frontline just has to get tougher. Horford is tough, but still needs a lot of polish offensively. If he can start knocking down that 15 foot jumper at a 43% - 45% clip, he'll become a more viable offensive threat. When you talk about jumpshooting PFs and Cs, these were what some of the decent guys shot on their jumpers last year ( eFG percentage wise ).

I'm going to exclude the guys that take a lot of 3s, like a Dirk, Charlie V, and Rasheed, because the 3-ball raises their percentages on their eFG jumpers.

- Pau Gasol: 46.1%

- Garnett: 45.1%

- Yao Ming: 45.1%

- Amare: 44.5%

- Ilgauskas: 44.2%

- Bosh: 43.6%

- Duncan: 43.4%

- Haslem:42.8%

- D. West: 41.6%

- Aldridge: 41.6% ( surprising . . I thought he would be higher )

- Brand - 41.5%

- Horford: 40.8%

So Horford is actually close to getting to that 41% - 43% level. The only thing about Horford, is that he's not going to have a lot of shots to do his thing from mid-range, with all of the gunners we have on the squad. Of the 9 shots a game he gets, he may only get 4 - 5 jumpers. So his misses will be magnified when he does miss, because he's not looked to score a ton of points.

Smith plays soft at times. That's my major criticism of him, even outside of the jumpshots. If he starts becoming a player that doesn't mind banging, you'll see his game immeadiately go to that next level. I still say that from an energy standpoint, he should be doing what Shawn Marion did in his prime, where he was scoring and dominating on the boards. He has the athleticism to do just that, but he doesn't like to bang. What the playoffs ( hopefully ) will show him, is that he can make a living driving the basketball, and getting to the FT line to score his points. But he should also be a 10 rpg guy. He needs to change his mindset ( and become more fundamentally sound in boxing out for rebounds ), to get to that level.

If we trade Horford or Smith, I definitely don't want to trade them for a lazy defensive dude like Charlie V. If you trade Horford or Smith, you do it for an Amare or a Bosh, if you really want to remake this team.

Howeva . .

Probably the easiest thing to do, is to keep both Horford and Smith, and just add to the depth of the frontline. That's why I would dangle a carrot to the Clippers, and go get Marcus Camby . . even if I have to use the Hawks 1st round pick to do it. If they don't do a deal like Mo Evans + Speedy to give us Camby . . I'd go Speedy + #19 pick, to get Camby. Camby would be much more of an immeadiate asset to add to the mix, than to bring in a potential PG that Woody might not play anyway ( especially if we bring Bibby and/or Flip back ).

Adding a Camby would at least give us a guy who is active on the defensive end, and is a good rebounder. Actually, he's a borderline great rebounder in today's NBA. Plus he's an added shotblocker, something we always lose when we insert Zaza into a game.

As far as Marvin goes, he was much more effective this year, than he's ever been in a Hawks uniform. He added the 3 pointer to his game, while still showing the ability to drive the basketball. As a complimentary player, he's doing exactly what he needs to do. He just needs to start shooting a higher percentage, especially on some of those wide open jumpers he gets.

People want to use the playoffs as a barometer to what we need to do. But it's hard to do that, when we KNOW that both Horford and Marvin were hurt significantly. Those aren't "excuses". Those are FACTS.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Orlando's offensive style is unique. Well not unique but not very common. They have a big man who dominates the paint. So on offense they don't have to have their power forward down there helping to rebound. Since their power forward can shoot 3's, they simply put 4 men on the perimeter and when Dwight is double-teamed, he kicks it out to whoever is open and they may swing it or shoot it. If he's not double-teamed, he dominates his man. Very easy and effective plan but they have the folks to do it.

HOwever what gets lost in that, is that they play good defense. Otherwise they'd be trying to outscore folks. It's the defense that allows that offense scheme to work (depending on the 3's to be there). Those same shooters can play defense also and Howard in the paint provides that catalyst or focal point of the defense. Every easy shot (ones closer to the basket) are contested.

If you have someone like Villenueava, you aren't going to get that and the defensive part will suffer. HOnestly we cannot imitate Orlando's offense anyway because we don't have a dwight howard. That's not Horfords fault, theres not many dwight howards out there. Not many teams could imitate Orlando's offense due to the lack of dwight howards out there. This is why having a dominating center makes life so easy.

Now that's not to say Horford can't improve to the point where he requires a double team at least some of the time, and then the kickouts become more effective.

Honestly I think if the following things happened, we would be a much better team. Good enough to beat ORlando or Cleveland? who knows we are far away from them right now.

- get a point guard that can play defense and also shoot enough not to be a liability...the fact that Bibby got driven on so many times caused our big men to get put out of position. countless times i heard the announcer say the other team thought they could take advantage of bibby on defense. if this is nipped in the bud, our defense becomes that much better. if that point guard can set up others, BONUS.

- josh smith must be able to hit that midrange jumpshot at a high percentage clip...forget the 3's, focus right now on the midrange...you can move it out later..but if he can hit that midrange, teams cant' sag on him and his drive on opposing big men (a big advantage he has) becomes dangerously effective...

-horford has to get more post moves and a consistent midrange jumper...he can't be the lost soul on offense that nobody watches....all players on the court must for the most part be a weapon on offense..

- joe has to get a big better at passing out of the double-team...we need to have an automatic few plays to go to that a soon as he gets double-teamed, we get an advantage because we are prepared for it. make people cover him one-on-one...think about it in the playoffs for the most part you see kobe and lebron getting single teamed by their best defender and only get double-teamed if they get close to the basket...joe on the other hand would be double-teamed on the perimeter...we need to learn how to deal with that much much better...if you stop people from doing that, joe 1) doesnt get as tired and 2) doesnt fade in big games (when opposing teams focus on the double-team).

- a better or additional offensive system needs to be implemented in the offseason so we aren't so easy to defend...

Great post.

Although he can't shoot, a guy like Andre Miller would be an upgrade at the PG spot, because he can defend a little better than Bibby, and he loves to drive the ball and get to the rim. That's an element on this team that we're missing from the guard spot. JJ gets into the paint, but he'd rather shoot the floater than go all the way to the hole.

I don't mind Smoove at all taking the 15 foot jumper, although I'd rather for him to go to the hole as much as possible as well. For Smoove, all I would want him to do is shoot around the 38% range on his jumpers. I'm not expecting more than that from him. But he needs to know that the strength of his offensive game is scoring around the rim. Like you said, he should completely ABANDON the 3 point shot . . even if he's wide open. Take a dribble and get 3 - 5 feet closer, then shot.

My problem with JJ on the double teams, is that he sometimes make lazy passes out of it that get stolen. His passes need to be a lot crisper with zip on them. Lebron does that very well.

To me, the perfect offseason would be:

- let Bibby go, and use just about all of the available FA money under the cap to sign Andre Miller. If he wants a deal that averages 9 - 10 mill a year, you give it to him for 4 years.

- re-sign Marvin at 5 yrs / 44 million . . or 4 yrs / 35 million ( w/player option after year 3 )

- Do a trade with the Clippers that brings Marcus Camby to the Hawks. I was saying do Mo Evans + Speedy for Camby . . but I think the Clippers would bite more, if that deal was Speedy + the #19 pick for Camby.

- use the MLE money to re-sign Flip.

For us, it would give us a one year evauation of Camby to see if he is a good fit. If he is, we have a chance to re-sign him after 2010 ( if we own his bird rights . . which I'm not sure if we would ). If he doesn't work out, he falls off the books anyway.

To me, this year's draft pick isn't going to be an impact pick, because the best player available will probably be a PG.

Lineup:

G - Miller

G - JJ

F - Marvin

F - Smoove

C - Horford

Bench:

G - Flip

C - Camby

G/F - Evans

G - Acie

( if possible . . bring back Chill at a price lower than what we offered him back in the summer . . or you bring back Zaza to the mix, for more size )

Give us that lineup, and I think we could win 50+ games. Will that lineup be enough to overtake Orlando, Cleveland, and Boston? I don't know. Actually, I doubt it. But it will make us more competitive in a playoff series against them.

Edited May 31, 2009 by northcyde

[HAWKS1986]

To me, the frontline just has to get tougher. Horford is tough, but still needs a lot of polish offensively. If he can start knocking down that 15 foot jumper at a 43% - 45% clip, he'll become a more viable offensive threat. When you talk about jumpshooting PFs and Cs, these were what some of the decent guys shot on their jumpers last year ( eFG percentage wise ).

I'm going to exclude the guys that take a lot of 3s, like a Dirk, Charlie V, and Rasheed, because the 3-ball raises their percentages on their eFG jumpers.

- Pau Gasol: 46.1%

- Garnett: 45.1%

- Yao Ming: 45.1%

- Amare: 44.5%

- Ilgauskas: 44.2%

- Bosh: 43.6%

- Duncan: 43.4%

- Haslem:42.8%

- D. West: 41.6%

- Aldridge: 41.6% ( surprising . . I thought he would be higher )

- Brand - 41.5%

- Horford: 40.8%

So Horford is actually close to getting to that 41% - 43% level. The only thing about Horford, is that he's not going to have a lot of shots to do his thing from mid-range, with all of the gunners we have on the squad. Of the 9 shots a game he gets, he may only get 4 - 5 jumpers. So his misses will be magnified when he does miss, because he's not looked to score a ton of points.

Smith plays soft at times. That's my major criticism of him, even outside of the jumpshots. If he starts becoming a player that doesn't mind banging, you'll see his game immeadiately go to that next level. I still say that from an energy standpoint, he should be doing what Shawn Marion did in his prime, where he was scoring and dominating on the boards. He has the athleticism to do just that, but he doesn't like to bang. What the playoffs ( hopefully ) will show him, is that he can make a living driving the basketball, and getting to the FT line to score his points. But he should also be a 10 rpg guy. He needs to change his mindset ( and become more fundamentally sound in boxing out for rebounds ), to get to that level.

If we trade Horford or Smith, I definitely don't want to trade them for a lazy defensive dude like Charlie V. If you trade Horford or Smith, you do it for an Amare or a Bosh, if you really want to remake this team.

Howeva . .

Probably the easiest thing to do, is to keep both Horford and Smith, and just add to the depth of the frontline. That's why I would dangle a carrot to the Clippers, and go get Marcus Camby . . even if I have to use the Hawks 1st round pick to do it. If they don't do a deal like Mo Evans + Speedy to give us Camby . . I'd go Speedy + #19 pick, to get Camby. Camby would be much more of an immeadiate asset to add to the mix, than to bring in a potential PG that Woody might not play anyway ( especially if we bring Bibby and/or Flip back ).

Adding a Camby would at least give us a guy who is active on the defensive end, and is a good rebounder. Actually, he's a borderline great rebounder in today's NBA. Plus he's an added shotblocker, something we always lose when we insert Zaza into a game.

As far as Marvin goes, he was much more effective this year, than he's ever been in a Hawks uniform. He added the 3 pointer to his game, while still showing the ability to drive the basketball. As a complimentary player, he's doing exactly what he needs to do. He just needs to start shooting a higher percentage, especially on some of those wide open jumpers he gets.

People want to use the playoffs as a barometer to what we need to do. But it's hard to do that, when we KNOW that both Horford and Marvin were hurt significantly. Those aren't "excuses". Those are FACTS.

When Horford is healthy he still has a tendency to disappear from games and the same thing applies to Marvin.

Horford is undersized, and almost like a player without a position..Is he a C or PF...It is not likely that Horford will ever be on the same level as a Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan or even Michael Beasley...

The Hawks did spend a high first round pick(#3) on the 6'9 Horford, but thus he is still seen as someone who has a 'long ways to go'....Kevin Durant was NBA ready with a mature offensive skillset, but just needs to gain 15 to 20 lbs and gain experience.. same thing with Garnett, Boozer, Mourning and Beasley when they first came into the league..for Horford is more of a project than near-finish product..

The Hawks do lack a degree of toughness...in the 1980's we had Antione Carr, Cliff Livingston and Tree Rollins..and yes Jon Koncak... in the 1990's under Wilkins we had a guy like Grant Long who provided interior scoring, veteran presence and toughness..

Many have predicted the Hawks drafting a PG, but I wouldn't be mad to see the Hawks draft someone such as Dajuan Blair from Pittsburgh..

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Many have predicted the Hawks drafting a PG, but I wouldn't be mad to see the Hawks draft someone such as Dajuan Blair from Pittsburgh..

Now I'm with you on that. I'd love to have Blair here. It's sad to say, but if we got Blair, he may instantly become our best low post player. Maybe not better all around than Horford and Smoove, but better on the low block as a scorer, than they are.

[Diesel]

I think you missed it.

What made Orlando so dominant was not it's forward play exactly. It was the fact that they have a dominant big. Everything else works off of that.

Without that being the model, you have to have the next best thing... A strong defense and enough superstars to carry the day... ALA Boston. I think we're trying for that Boston Celtics look. A strong defense team, but we bring athleticism into the equation. Becuase of that, we are a bad matchup for Orlando if everything is healthy.. however, we're a terrible matchup for Cleveland because their forwards can just clog the middle and force us to beat them from outside..

We have to get personnel who can fulfill the Boston model. That means guys who can take it inside.

[Diesel]

Orlando's offensive style is unique. Well not unique but not very common. They have a big man who dominates the paint. So on offense they don't have to have their power forward down there helping to rebound. Since their power forward can shoot 3's, they simply put 4 men on the perimeter and when Dwight is double-teamed, he kicks it out to whoever is open and they may swing it or shoot it. If he's not double-teamed, he dominates his man. Very easy and effective plan but they have the folks to do it.

HOwever what gets lost in that, is that they play good defense. Otherwise they'd be trying to outscore folks. It's the defense that allows that offense scheme to work (depending on the 3's to be there). Those same shooters can play defense also and Howard in the paint provides that catalyst or focal point of the defense. Every easy shot (ones closer to the basket) are contested.

One more thing Doc. Orlando plays a very good screen and roll with Hedo and Howard. This is the thing that killed Cleveland. They finally played a team with shooters and a bread and butter offensive set. Cleveland's problem during the whole series was that they couldn't defend the pick and screen. When they would go to defend it, Howard swings it out to Lewis or Hedo who were open on the perimeter. Boom baby. The offense however, was started by their big. In the last game, Cleveland decided to guard the perimeter and go one on one vs. Howard. That was stupid. Howard scored 40 for a reason. Because one on one, nobody on that team can stop him. I guess Cleveland thought if they run at howard on the offensive end, Stern would give them the call. They were down by 20 and Komakazing Howard. West and Lebron running and jumping into Howard. Well, this time, their refs turned their backs on them. Throughout OH, there was a collective "Uh-Oh".

[buckeye242424]

I think you missed it.

What made Orlando so dominant was not it's forward play exactly. It was the fact that they have a dominant big. Everything else works off of that.

Without that being the model, you have to have the next best thing... A strong defense and enough superstars to carry the day... ALA Boston. I think we're trying for that Boston Celtics look. A strong defense team, but we bring athleticism into the equation. Becuase of that, we are a bad matchup for Orlando if everything is healthy.. however, we're a terrible matchup for Cleveland because their forwards can just clog the middle and force us to beat them from outside..

We have to get personnel who can fulfill the Boston model. That means guys who can take it inside.

This fact can't be overlooked, or stressed enough. People can look at Orlando's three point shooting as the reason they beat Cleveland, but this is only because of Howard. They double, he kicks it out, they find the open man. Wide open man. They don't double him, Howard can and did have his way with anyone one-on-one.

Either one of those options don't work, they go to option three...someone drive it in and throw it off the board and let Howard get it. It's the most effective play. It's ugly, sloppy, and slightly cheap...but it works.

[AHF]

This fact can't be overlooked, or stressed enough. People can look at Orlando's three point shooting as the reason they beat Cleveland, but this is only because of Howard. They double, he kicks it out, they find the open man. Wide open man. They don't double him, Howard can and did have his way with anyone one-on-one.

Either one of those options don't work, they go to option three...someone drive it in and throw it off the board and let Howard get it. It's the most effective play. It's ugly, sloppy, and slightly cheap...but it works.

There are some real similarities to the Houston championship teams that were built around surrounding Hakeem with good perimeter shooters. The same premise works in both cases - that you can't handle the big man one on one and devoting extra defenders will open up great perimeter shots. Nothing cheap about that, IMO. Cheap is running into a defender to generate contact. Punishing an opponent for doubling is just smart play.

[Plainview1981]

Orlando isn't in the NBA Finals by accident. The Magic has the right formula to be a perennial powerhouse with their style of play, and they were able to overcome defensive-minded Philly, the resilient world-champ Celtics and the one-man show Cavs.

Hedo and Rashard Lewis along with Mikael Pietrus made life hard for the Cavs and denied Lebron his moment. Dwight Howard was a target by refs, but the Magic balance and versatility from its forwards helped them down the stretch in support of Howard.

The way Rashard Lewis made timely threes is what the Hawks needed from Marvin Williams. Marvin is capable of doing what Rashard and Hedo, but Marvin doesn't want to take on that leadership mantle. Hedu plays more like a point forward at 6'10 and has better ball handling skills than Josh Smith and shoots the better than Josh.

Al Horford plays a lot of minutes, but his lack of an offensive skillset further puts the Hawks at a disadvantage against better teams--especially in a playoff series. I hope Horford works on his jumper during the summer, because it has to improve to the point that he shouldn't shy away from open 15 ft. jumpers--ever...

Denver has a more talented team than the Hawks, but Kenyon Martin, Chris Anderson and Nene aren't foing to step out and be a three-point threat unlike Lamar Odom and Trevor Ariza for the Lakers, plus Gasol...

When Chauncey won his championship with the Pistons, he had Rasheed Wallace and Tayshun Prince shooting timely threes, this was a dynamic that Billups' Denver team didn't have and it gave the Lakers the edge.

Cleveland don't have a point forward like the Magic or Lakers or the old Pistons teams..Ben Wallace? Varejo? Big Z? It does make a difference...

Al Horford is tradeable, so is Josh Smith. This Hawks team need to find forwards who are offensively versatile like a charlie Villneuva. He may not be a shot blocking threat, but Villneuva can influence a game offensively and provide support for Joe Johnson and stretch the floor with shooters..

If Boston was healthy they would likely be repeating as champs. People are acting like Detroit won lots of titles. They didn't even play that great in the playoffs the year that they won the title. They were the right team at the right time. The best team they played was a team with little chemistry. Not trying to totally take credit away Detroit, but they is a reason they fell off basically every year after that one. As for this year: The best PF in the east wasn't available for the playoffs and that opened up things. All this proves is that the team with quality bigs get to the big game. Orlando has a star big man and Cleveland don't. That was the difference.

The two finalist have two of the top big men in the NBA. In large part, that is why they're there.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[tonegully]

We need Smoove to play the paint to the point where teams try to double which leaves Marv, Bibby, JJ open for jumpers or HOrf for a chip shot jumper.

Thats what Orlando does. Then you saw when they didnt double D12 killed them. If Smoove plays the paint and develops some post moves and we learned how to play man on man defense instead of switching all the time we would improve big time.

[Diesel]

There are some real similarities to the Houston championship teams that were built around surrounding Hakeem with good perimeter shooters. The same premise works in both cases - that you can't handle the big man one on one and devoting extra defenders will open up great perimeter shots. Nothing cheap about that, IMO. Cheap is running into a defender to generate contact. Punishing an opponent for doubling is just smart play.

That's true, but Hakeem was definitely a fineese Center. He had an up and under move and of course the "dream shake"... But in comparison, Howard is a BEAST. The similarity is with the dominant big and the shooters, but it's just a different type of dominant big.

[AHF]

That's true, but Hakeem was definitely a fineese Center. He had an up and under move and of course the "dream shake"... But in comparison, Howard is a BEAST. The similarity is with the dominant big and the shooters, but it's just a different type of dominant big.

Agreed, 100%. Hakeem was much more skilled and had a very different game but the resulting doubling down on the big man creating space for shooters just amounts to two different ways up that same mountain.

The other difference is that some guys can single cover Howard without being abused like Hakeem would abuse someone single covering him. I will never forget that series against David Robinson when Robinson won the MVP and tried to man up against the Dream. (Insert requisite "nightmare" comment here).