Marvin-Smoove-Horf

[Wurider05]

JJ made 578 out of 1325 shots for the season in 79 games. (17 shots a game)

MB made 437 out of 1007 shots for the season in 79 games (13 shots a game)

MW made 285 out of 622 for the season in 61 games. (10 shots a game)

JS made 418 out of 849 for the season in 69 games. (12 shots a game)

AH made 312 out of 594 for the season in 67 games. (9 shots a game)

JJ/Bibby are our worst shooters but they take most of the shots. JJ took nearly as many shots as Smoove and Marv combined.

We need to feed out front court more. Every guy is easily shooting the ball well. Too much chucking by Bibby and JJ. That is why we are so easy to stop on offense.

Marvin-Smoove-Horford

42 ppg

22 rpg

4-bpg

6 apg

3 spg

49.3 fg%

Marvin (81% ft), Smoove (59%) Horf (73%) 71% collectively but Smoove brings it down considerably

Marvin (49% on 2 pt fg) (36% 3pt)

Smoove (51% on 2pt fg) (29% 3pt)

Our front court appears to be solid right now and maybe in the top ten overall.

Atlanta Hawks Frontcourt Rankings 2008-2009

Frontcourt Rankings

6th in Field-goals percentage With .475 or higher Field-goals percentage, Atlanta Hawks are 30 - 17

6th in Turnovers With 7 or more Turnovers, Atlanta Hawks are 25 - 14

8th in 3-point percentage With .354 or higher 3-point percentage, Atlanta Hawks are 25 - 23

12nd in Defense With 57 or more Points allowed, Atlanta Hawks are 20 - 21

14th in Free-throws attempts With 16 or more Free-throws attempts, Atlanta Hawks are 29 - 19

15th in Steals With 4 or more Steals, Atlanta Hawks are 28 - 17

16th in Offensive Rebounds With 9 or more Offensive Rebounds, Atlanta Hawks are 25 - 22

20th in Free-throws made With 11 or more Free-throws made, Atlanta Hawks are 30 - 16

20th in Blocks With 4 or more Blocks, Atlanta Hawks are 29 - 23

20th in 3-point made With 3 or more 3-point made, Atlanta Hawks are 24 - 17

20th in Assists --With 8 or more Assists, Atlanta Hawks are 28 - 10

21st in 3-point attempts --With 7 or more 3-point attempts, Atlanta Hawks are 26 - 21

23rd in Fouls-- With 14 or more Fouls, Atlanta Hawks are 22 - 19

24th in Free-throws percentage---With .690 or higher Free-throws percentage, Atlanta Hawks are 33 - 19

25th in Rebounds--With 29 or more rebounds, Atlanta Hawks are 33 - 21

26th in Efficiency recap--With 64 or more Efficiency recap, Atlanta Hawks are 31 - 9

26th in Offense --With 51 or more Points, Atlanta Hawks are 30 - 11

27th in Defensive Rebounds --With 21 or more Defensive rebounds, Atlanta Hawks are 30 -

16

29th in Field-goals made --With 19 or more Field-goals made, Atlanta Hawks are 28 - 16

30th in Field-goals attempts --With 39 or more Field-goals attempts, Atlanta Hawks are 26 - 21

Improvements I would like to see see about 8-10 assists a game from out front court. These guys are still young but they are already solid.

It seems that a good pg can fix alot of our problems!! We need to build around our front court trio. JJ dominating the ball is obviously holding them back.

I will be doing two other post for our back court and our starters as a whole.

[Diesel]

Wu, there are a couple of obvious things in this post that you may miss.

First and foremost, your better players (regardless of FG%) will shoot the ball more than anybody else. There's an aggressiveness to better players that you don't see in others. For instance, you say Joe shot the ball 17 times per game, well, Kobe shot the ball 20 times per game. Just like Joe, Kobe is not his team's most efficient scorer (Bynum is). Moreover, that efficiency is easily explained by the fact that Guards and three point shooters will normally shoot a lower percentage than your bigs. That's because Bigs normally score their baskets in close as compared to Guards and three point shooters. Back to the Lakers, their FG% goes from Gasol to Bynum to Odom then to Kobe. You add in MBenga before Kobe too.

Now if you want the measure of efficiency as players go, you can use PER. "Player Efficiency Rating (available since the 1951-52 season); PER is a rating developed by ESPN.com columnist John Hollinger. In John's words, "The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance."

It's supposed to be one of the best measures of efficiency.

When you consider PER...

1. Joe Johnson

2. Josh Smith

3. Al Horford

4. Mike Bibby

5. Marvin Williams

And Last year PER....

1. Josh Smith

2. Josh Childress

3. Joe Johnson

4. Mike Bibby

5. Al Horford

6. Marvin Williams

So, if you want to make recommendations on what the team should do or should have done based on efficiency, then last year, we would have been better off putting the ball into Smoove's hand and letting Josh Childress start and Marvin come off the bench. However, I guarantee you that the more Josh Smith shoots, the lower his PER would get. That's not to dis Josh but when you become a primary option, the defense focuses on you more.

Now a more meaningful discussion would be:

Josh Smith 2007-2008 PER = 19.

Josh Smith 2008-2009 PER = 17.2

If Smoove is improving on offense, why is his PER dropping?

[Wurider05]

Wu, there are a couple of obvious things in this post that you may miss.

Josh Smith 2007-2008 PER = 19.

Josh Smith 2008-2009 PER = 17.2

If Smoove is improving on offense, why is his PER dropping?

You are right Diesel and I considered that. Could Smoove's PER be dropping because he is getting less rebounds, blocks, and is a horrible free throw shooter.

My point would be simply spreading the ball around a little more especially in the assist department. If you check my other post you would see the we are a way better team when we have alot of assists. That may mean that we run more or it may mean that JJ/Bibby are passing more but ball movement seems to make us stronger.

[AHF]

FG% is irrelevant look at TS% for who should not be shooting as much or should be exercising better shot selection because this incorporates the ability to hit 3's and draw fouls:

Zaza .571

Marvin .569

Horford .565

Bibby .544

Flip .543

JJ .534

Josh .533

[Diesel]

FG% is irrelevant look at TS% for who should not be shooting as much or should be exercising better shot selection because this incorporates the ability to hit 3's and draw fouls:

Zaza .571

Marvin .569

Horford .565

Bibby .544

Flip .543

JJ .534

Josh .533

TS% may be all that you say it is... but for the Lakers it says:

1 Shannon Brown

2 Pau Gasol

3 Vladimir Radmanovic

4 Andrew Bynum

5 Kobe Bryant

6 Derek Fisher

7 Trevor Ariza

8 Lamar Odom

I looks like it is heavily basis against ball handlers.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Hmmmm .. so we've explored the Frontcourt stats . . then the PER . . then the TS%. So why don't I add what I think is a key reason why our frontcourt don't get as many touches as people think they should . .

Percentage of Field Goals Made that came via an Assist

When you look at that, this is how it looks:

JJ - 39% of made shots came via an assist
Flip - 41%
Bibby - 62%
Smith - 65%
Horford - 66%
Williams - 68%

Since Diesel has been bringing the Lakers up, let's look at their main guys, with this stat as the focus.

Kobe- 37% of made shots came via an assist
Gasol - 57%
Fisher - 59%
Odom - 60%
Ariza - 64%
Bynum - 64%

With the Hawks, you could surmise that our frontcourt is HIGHLY DEPENDENT on having others set up makeable shots for them already. That's because they have trouble creating shots for themselves, that they can make. Now they can get to the FT line, and score that way. But as far as taking a shot with somebody D'ing them up? Nah, that's not their strength. If they can't get a foul call, going to the basket, our frontcourt is relatively ineffective in creating their own shot.

This is part of the reason why JJ holds he ball so long, and draw double teams . . so that others can get easier shots.

To be honest, the better solution may be to get JJ better looks on the perimeter. But to do that, our frontcourt has to show the ability to be able to score on people one on one, when down on the block. Until that day comes, the Hawk guards are still going to be looked upon to jack up a lot of shots, and score.

[Diesel]

With the Hawks, you could surmise that our frontcourt is HIGHLY DEPENDENT on having others set up makeable shots for them already. That's because they have trouble creating shots for themselves, that they can make. Now they can get to the FT line, and score that way. But as far as taking a shot with somebody D'ing them up? Nah, that's not their strength. If they can't get a foul call, going to the basket, our frontcourt is relatively ineffective in creating their own shot.

This is part of the reason why JJ holds he ball so long, and draw double teams . . so that others can get easier shots.

To be honest, the better solution may be to get JJ better looks on the perimeter. But to do that, our frontcourt has to show the ability to be able to score on people one on one, when down on the block. Until that day comes, the Hawk guards are still going to be looked upon to jack up a lot of shots, and score.

I think part of the answer is finding a better distributor than Bibby in our offense. That is to say that we have not tried a Bibby like offense. I would prefer to see him in some pick and roll. The second is just as you say, our bigs have to develop a goto move. Weather it is finishing in the pick and roll or developing an up and under move, our guys have to do more than just be finishers on the break. Josh Smith has started down this road, but Horf is the one who really needs to show great improvement. Horf gets a lot of respect but when you watch him play, he doesn't have the moves yet. Some of it is Woody, but the other part is that he doesn't have a move.

[Cwell]

Josh did show a few good post moves in those playoff games

[Wurider05]

I think that that is one of the things I wanted to point out and that is the we need a better distributor than Bibby. I don't agree that JJ dribbles so much to free up other people. He dribbles so much because he is looking for his shot. That is why our guys (Marv, Smoove, Horf) are always in the exact same spot on offense so JJ can find them when he can't get his shot off even if he has been dribbling for 20 seconds. This is the very essence of ISO Joe--dribble then throw it to a guy with 5 or 6 seconds left to shoot.

[crimedog]

FG% is irrelevant look at TS% for who should not be shooting as much or should be exercising better shot selection because this incorporates the ability to hit 3's and draw fouls:

Zaza .571

Marvin .569

Horford .565

Bibby .544

Flip .543

JJ .534

Josh .533

I'd rephrase that slightly - Smith actually draws fouls at a higher rate than anyone but Zaza (using fouls drawn as a pct% of FGA, from 82games), he just hits them worse than anyone on our team and this season, worse than most players in the league.

[Packfill]

Hmmmm .. so we've explored the Frontcourt stats . . then the PER . . then the TS%. So why don't I add what I think is a key reason why our frontcourt don't get as many touches as people think they should . .

Percentage of Field Goals Made that came via an Assist

When you look at that, this is how it looks:

JJ - 39% of made shots came via an assist
Flip - 41%
Bibby - 62%
Smith - 65%
Horford - 66%
Williams - 68%

Since Diesel has been bringing the Lakers up, let's look at their main guys, with this stat as the focus.

Kobe- 37% of made shots came via an assist
Gasol - 57%
Fisher - 59%
Odom - 60%
Ariza - 64%
Bynum - 64%

With the Hawks, you could surmise that our frontcourt is HIGHLY DEPENDENT on having others set up makeable shots for them already. That's because they have trouble creating shots for themselves, that they can make. Now they can get to the FT line, and score that way. But as far as taking a shot with somebody D'ing them up? Nah, that's not their strength. If they can't get a foul call, going to the basket, our frontcourt is relatively ineffective in creating their own shot.

This is part of the reason why JJ holds he ball so long, and draw double teams . . so that others can get easier shots.

To be honest, the better solution may be to get JJ better looks on the perimeter. But to do that, our frontcourt has to show the ability to be able to score on people one on one, when down on the block. Until that day comes, the Hawk guards are still going to be looked upon to jack up a lot of shots, and score.

I agree with your analysis. The only thing I would add is the potential a true drive and dish point guard could have on the team. With the Hawks undersized but athletic frontcourt it would seem a point guard that can really get to the hole - and that has the passing accumen to hit the open man while in traffic - could lead to a huge increase in frontcourt productivity.

Of course, we all know who that guy should be. :angel19: