Hawks reportedly shopping Smoove

[NJHAWK]

Im not sure it was an assumption that we could have signed him earlier. I mean from everything we heard Sund told he and Chills to go out and find an offer. Well they did, Chills in Greece and Smoove with a 7.2 mil dollar trade kicker.

[exodus]

We don't really know what Woodson has told him to do. You watch the games. All Horford is asked to do is stand around in the high post on offense and set a token screen or pass the ball back out of the high post. Its fairly obvious he's never asked to do anything besides that.

I know what Woody hasn't told him to do. I know he hasn't told him he can't shoot open 15 footers. He hasn't told him he can't drive.

You act like Woody's offense has some sort of structure. It doesn't. He just lets guys go one on one. If he isn't going to stop Smith from shooting 3s he isn't going to stop Horford from shooting from 15 feet.

[Dsinner]

The huge assumption you are making is that we could have signed him much earlier. And the only way it's biting them in the *ss is if you believe these rumors that we're trying to trade him and if you assume that we're having difficult moving him. I doubt that either is the case.

How is that a huge assumption? You doubt we could have signed him for a little more earlier even though Smith ended up taking something, that by your logic, was cheaper? That doesn't even make sense. Of course he would have signed for a little more money earlier with his home town AND with a contract that would have been a little more favorable towards the Hawks (ie no large trade kicker). How could you think otherwise?

I doubt the Hawks are shopping him just to shop him but I don't doubt they are listening to offers that involve a legit center. Probably even making the calls.

[Sothron]

I know what Woody hasn't told him to do. I know he hasn't told him he can't shoot open 15 footers. He hasn't told him he can't drive.

You act like Woody's offense has some sort of structure. It doesn't. He just lets guys go one on one. If he isn't going to stop Smith from shooting 3s he isn't going to stop Horford from shooting from 15 feet.

Of course it has no structure but its fairly obvious he tells them what he wants: Iso Joe to get off the most shots, hold the ball the longest and every now and then call for a screener (Horford) to try and get Iso or Bibby a shot. I said this before in other threads but I have never seen any team run less low post plays than Woodson's Hawks. I mean we don't run ANY low post plays. We don't involve our big men at all on offense except as a screener and a passer out of the high post. You can't expect Horford to be told to do one thing and then on his own go out and disobey the coach. The biggest friction Smoove has with Woodson is exactly that.

[exodus]

Of course it has no structure but its fairly obvious he tells them what he wants: Iso Joe to get off the most shots, hold the ball the longest and every now and then call for a screener (Horford) to try and get Iso or Bibby a shot. I said this before in other threads but I have never seen any team run less low post plays than Woodson's Hawks. I mean we don't run ANY low post plays. We don't involve our big men at all on offense except as a screener and a passer out of the high post. You can't expect Horford to be told to do one thing and then on his own go out and disobey the coach. The biggest friction Smoove has with Woodson is exactly that.

No i know you have no clue what you are talking about. Saying the Hawks don't run any post plays is straight BS. Horford gets touches in the post he just can't do anything with them. He will try to back a guy down which he can't do and then shoot an off balance jump hook or fadeaway which regularly misses. Of course this is assuming he doesn't turn it over. He has a penchant for traveling when posting up. He isn't a post player now and never will be. I can't blame Woody for not calling more post ups for Horford.

Smith has improved a lot in the post and that is why he shot 49% on the season in spite of his frequent and errant jump shooting. He is able to get closer to the basket than Horford because he knows it is better to go around a bigger player. Horford can't seem to figure that out.

Even Marvin gets touches in the post. In fact he has the best jump hook on the team. Saying the Hawks never run post plays is just ridiculous.

I wonder how much longer the Horford excuse festival will go on.

[Admin]

No i know you have no clue what you are talking about. Saying the Hawks don't run any post plays is straight BS. Horford gets touches in the post he just can't do anything with them. He will try to back a guy down which he can't do and then shoot an off balance jump hook or fadeaway which regularly misses. Of course this is assuming he doesn't turn it over. He has a penchant for traveling when posting up. He isn't a post player now and never will be. I can't blame Woody for not calling more post ups for Horford.

Smith has improved a lot in the post and that is why he shot 49% on the season in spite of his frequent and errant jump shooting. He is able to get closer to the basket than Horford because he knows it is better to go around a bigger player. Horford can't seem to figure that out.

Even Marvin gets touches in the post. In fact he has the best jump hook on the team. Saying the Hawks never run post plays is just ridiculous.

I wonder how much longer the Horford excuse festival will go on.

I wonder why you appear to hate Horford as much as Diesel does Marvin. :doh:

And is it fair to say that we rarely run post plays in our offense? That's the way that I see it. And just because we score on a post move doesn't mean we ran a post play either, it can very well mean that one of our numerous ISO players decided to try and score in the post.

[Admin]

How is that a huge assumption? You doubt we could have signed him for a little more earlier even though Smith ended up taking something, that by your logic, was cheaper? That doesn't even make sense. Of course he would have signed for a little more money earlier with his home town AND with a contract that would have been a little more favorable towards the Hawks (ie no large trade kicker). How could you think otherwise?

I doubt the Hawks are shopping him just to shop him but I don't doubt they are listening to offers that involve a legit center. Probably even making the calls.

No I really don't think that we could have signed him earlier for anywhere near what he ended up signing for. I think it would have taken 6 years and 70+ million and while on average it's not a huge difference that extra year that it likely would have cost us could end up being huge for us in the future.

[coachx]

This arguement of the Hawks should have signed Smith quicker and just given him 1 or 2 mill more per year is crazy ! You guys obviously are not business people.

Paying Smith $1.5 mill more per year would have cost us Flip Murray last year, who only made $1.4 mill last season. We would have struggled to be in the playoffs without Flip on last years team.

Sund did an excellent job with Smith by not paying over market value for him.

[exodus]

I wonder why you appear to hate Horford as much as Diesel does Marvin. :doh:

And is it fair to say that we rarely run post plays in our offense? That's the way that I see it. And just because we score on a post move doesn't mean we ran a post play either, it can very well mean that one of our numerous ISO players decided to try and score in the post.

Pull your head out of your butt please. I am not creating thread after thread after thread bashing Horford and proposing to trade him like Diesel does with Marvin. I just get tired of all the nonsense excuses people make for Horford.

He gets the ball on post ups enough for anyone to see he isn't a post up player. What post up moves does he have? His jump hook and fadeaway jumper are lame. He never and i mean never does an up and under. He might throw up a fake about once a month.

If a guy posts up his man and gets the ball that is a post up whether it is a called play or not. JJ, Smith, Horford, Marvin and even Flip get the ball in the post. Of those players Horford is easily the least effective.

[Admin]

Pull your head out of your butt please. I am not creating thread after thread after thread bashing Horford and proposing to trade him like Diesel does with Marvin. I just get tired of all the nonsense excuses people make for Horford.

He gets the ball on post ups enough for anyone to see he isn't a post up player. What post up moves does he have? His jump hook and fadeaway jumper are lame. He never and i mean never does an up and under. He might throw up a fake about once a month.

If a guy posts up his man and gets the ball that is a post up whether it is a called play or not. JJ, Smith, Horford, Marvin and even Flip get the ball in the post. Of those players Horford is easily the least effective.

I realize that he doesn't have much of a post up game but what I want to know is why you never talk about the positive things he brings to the game like you do for Marvin. You know that Marvin has major deficiencies and sometimes you mention them but more often than not you're defending him and it's the exact opposite with Horford who has at least as many positives as Marvin does. And while you're not creating threads bashing Horford or trying to trade him as soon as someone mentions him you start going off on him calling him a pansy and this and that. I just don't get it.

[Admin]

This arguement of the Hawks should have signed Smith quicker and just given him 1 or 2 mill more per year is crazy ! You guys obviously are not business people.

Paying Smith $1.5 mill more per year would have cost us Flip Murray last year, who only made $1.4 mill last season. We would have struggled to be in the playoffs without Flip on last years team.

Sund did an excellent job with Smith by not paying over market value for him.

That's a good point coach and one that shouldn't be understated. Although on the "Flip" side if we don't sign Flip we probably don't make the playoffs and Woody is fired and I no longer have to read post after post bashing him LOL.

[exodus]

I realize that he doesn't have much of a post up game but what I want to know is why you never talk about the positive things he brings to the game like you do for Marvin. You know that Marvin has major deficiencies and sometimes you mention them but more often than not you're defending him and it's the exact opposite with Horford who has at least as many positives as Marvin does. And while you're not creating threads bashing Horford or trying to trade him as soon as someone mentions him you start going off on him calling him a pansy and this and that. I just don't get it.

I criticize Horford far less often then i criticize Smith for his 3s and overall dumb play. The problem is that Horford somehow has sacred cow status here and is somehow excempt from criticism for some reason.

As far as Marvin goes he has improved on his deficiencies quite a bit. He improved his 3 pointer greatly and improved at finishing inside. He really doesn't have major weaknesses now. He just doesn't have the talent to be a star.

If a guy is too timid to shoot wide open 15 footers or try to drive against a big slow stiff like Big Z then he is a pansy as far as I am concerned. Grow a pair and DO SOMETHING WITH THE BALL. You can't blame Woody if Horford doesn't try to take advantage of obvious scoring opportunities.

[exodus]

Paying Smith $1.5 mill more per year would have cost us Flip Murray last year, who only made $1.4 mill last season. We would have struggled to be in the playoffs without Flip on last years team.

Sorry but it doesn't work like that. Murray was paid from the MLE. Smiths contract had no relevance to the MLE.

The hawks didn't negotiate with Smith. they told him to go find an offer and he did. I don't think it is unreasonable to think that the Hawks could have signed him to a similar deal without the trade kicker if they had actually tried.

Edited June 17, 2009 by exodus

[Diesel]

Pull your head out of your butt please. I am not creating thread after thread after thread bashing Horford and proposing to trade him like Diesel does with Marvin. I just get tired of all the nonsense excuses people make for Horford.

No.. You just bash Horf everytime his name comes up.

You're the Horf bashing first responder.

[Diesel]

I realize that he doesn't have much of a post up game but what I want to know is why you never talk about the positive things he brings to the game like you do for Marvin. You know that Marvin has major deficiencies and sometimes you mention them but more often than not you're defending him and it's the exact opposite with Horford who has at least as many positives as Marvin does. And while you're not creating threads bashing Horford or trying to trade him as soon as someone mentions him you start going off on him calling him a pansy and this and that. I just don't get it.

Well, he's the "Horf bashing first responder"...

and he is one of "those people who talk about Marvin as if he were a star" also...

Those are the two things that Ex does here.

[Diesel]

I criticize Horford far less often then i criticize Smith for his 3s and overall dumb play.

No you don't. From the day we drafted Horf, you have been very critical of him. Citing that he's too short to play Center. Even when he was 2nd in ROY voting, you were critical. Don't lie to yourself now, you have been the most critical horf basher here. It's automatic that when Horf name comes up, you show up to bring up something negative. Most Hawks fans like Horf. Horf has his shortcomings. However, as a second year player, you have bashed Horf since day one and it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[exodus]

Well, he's the "Horf bashing first responder"...

and he is one of "those people who talk about Marvin as if he were a star" also...

Those are the two things that Ex does here.

I see the resident LIAR is up to his usual nonsense.

Diesel obviously needs to learn how to read. Not only have I never talked about Marvin as if he were a star i just posted this in this thread...

As far as Marvin goes he has improved on his deficiencies quite a bit. He improved his 3 pointer greatly and improved at finishing inside. He really doesn't have major weaknesses now. He just doesn't have the talent to be a star.

R I F

Edited June 17, 2009 by exodus

[AtLaS]

I know what Woody hasn't told him to do. I know he hasn't told him he can't shoot open 15 footers. He hasn't told him he can't drive.

This is true. However, he also hasn't told him TO look for his shot, or TO drive past his man. That's a coaches job. He should realize that Horford is a solid midrange shooter and tell him to start taking the open jumper EVERY time. That's not exactly a hard adjustment to make. Same with dribble driving.

I remember when I played if I passed up an open shot I'd get yanked out of the game.

[exodus]

No you don't. From the day we drafted Horf, you have been very critical of him. Citing that he's too short to play Center. Even when he was 2nd in ROY voting, you were critical. Don't lie to yourself now, you have been the most critical horf basher here. It's automatic that when Horf name comes up, you show up to bring up something negative. Most Hawks fans like Horf. Horf has his shortcomings. However, as a second year player, you have bashed Horf since day one and it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

LOL Do you want me to pull up your quotes about Horford not having a post game, which is what i just said?

I was dogging Smith all year about his 3s, leading the break and lack of boxing out. Horford is basically just a decent role player. I didn't bash him nearly as much as Smith.

Of course being Diesel you love to just make stuff up with nothing to back it up.

[exodus]

This is true. However, he also hasn't told him TO look for his shot, or TO drive past his man.

First of all how exactly do you know this?

Secondly at some point it is up to a player to actually use his brain. Just like Smith should have enough sense not to shoot 3s and lead the break Horford should have enough sense to shoot open midrange shots and drive against slow players.