Hawks reportedly shopping Smoove

[AtLaS]

First of all how exactly do you know this?

If you can make the assumption that he hasn't told him to not shoot those shots, then I can make the assumption that he hasn't told him to shoot those shots.

Secondly at some point it is up to a player to actually use his brain. Just like Smith should have enough sense not to shoot 3s and lead the break Horford should have enough sense to shoot open midrange shots and drive against slow players.

Regardless, the point is that a coach should recognize these things and TELL the player what to do. Horford seems like a bright guy and would listen if told IMO. Woodson should flat out tell him to take the open jumper every time. That's not a hard adjustment to make.

Edited June 17, 2009 by AtLaS

[exodus]

If you can make the assumption that he hasn't told him to not shoot those shots, then I can make the assumption that he hasn't told him to shoot those shots.

I actually have something to base my assumption on. You don't.

Woody was quoted as saying he isn't telling Smith not to shoot 3s. Since Smith is a horrible jump shooter it would be a pretty big reach to think that Woody would let Smith shoot 3s but tell Horford not to shoot 15 footers since Horford is a better shooter than Smith.

[AtLaS]

I actually have something to base my assumption on. You don't.

Woody was quoted as saying he isn't telling Smith not to shoot 3s. Since Smith is a horrible jump shooter it would be a pretty big reach to think that Woody would let Smith shoot 3s but tell Horford not to shoot 15 footers since Horford is a better shooter than Smith.

This is just a petty disagreement at this point. It's an obvious coaching problem, whether or not Horford/Smith should realize to do or not do what their deficiencies are. The coach should be held responsible.

[exodus]

This is just a petty disagreement at this point. It's an obvious coaching problem, whether or not Horford/Smith should realize to do or not do what their deficiencies are. The coach should be held responsible.

Woody blows but he can't be held responsible for everything. Horford and Smith are pros and they have to be held accountable as well.

what i don't get is why it is ok to criticize Smith for his faults but it isn't ok to criticize Horford.

[AtLaS]

Woody blows but he can't be held responsible for everything. Horford and Smith are pros and they have to be held accountable as well.

This is not "everything." These are two simple adjustments that should easily be made. Anyone who has watched this team realizes the problems and they should be fixed. It's a coaching issue. It's not like these problems are so advanced that you can't blame the coach for not completely fixing them. They are very simple problems that have a HUGE impact on a game to game basis. They could be easily corrected.

what i don't get is why it is ok to criticize Smith for his faults but it isn't ok to criticize Horford.

I have criticized both so you must be talking about someone else.

[exodus]

This is not "everything." These are two simple adjustments that should easily be made. Anyone who has watched this team realizes the problems and they should be fixed. It's a coaching issue. It's not like these problems are so advanced that you can't blame the coach for not completely fixing them. They are very simple problems that have a HUGE impact on a game to game basis. They could be easily corrected.

I have criticized both so you must be talking about someone else.

I am talking about the board in general. I don't get the sacred cow status that Horford seems to have with so many here.

And while Woody has certainly done a poor job these guys are getting paid a lot of money to play basketball and it isn't that complex. The film doesn't lie. If we can see these obvious problems then the players should see them as well.

I have long since given up on Woody addressing the key issues regarding this team.

[AtLaS]

I am talking about the board in general. I don't get the sacred cow status that Horford seems to have with so many here.

And while Woody has certainly done a poor job these guys are getting paid a lot of money to play basketball and it isn't that complex. The film doesn't lie. If we can see these obvious problems then the players should see them as well.

I have long since given up on Woody addressing the key issues regarding this team.

That doesn't mean that Woody isn't still the biggest one at fault. Obviously Smith/Horford should recognize certain things to improve about themselves, but it's not that easy.

Horford has played his entire career as a back down guy. He probably dominated in high school and never had to worry about face up jumpers and dribble driving. He probably just posted up every time and scored at will. In college, he played beside Noah and was bigger than 95% of the opponents he faced. He never had to learn a driving game. Plus, he was about the 3rd/4th option on that team so he wasn't just constantly looking for his shot. But, like I said, if the coach told him to than I'm sure he would. Now, he's moved to the NBA and playing a position where he's undersized against pretty much every team he faces. He has to completely learn a new style which is the exact opposite of what he's always done. What he needs is someone to show/tell him how to approach offense, which would actually be pretty simple to do IMO.

As far as Smith, yeah I get pissed when he keeps jacking up jumpers but I still put the majority of the blame on the coach because he's the one who could put a stop to it. Obviously Smith deserves blame as well, but I still fault the coach the most.

[Antmillennium]

You'd have a point except I already posted in this thread you can't fairly judge any Hawks players including Smoove while Woody is still around.

OK. Both players are suffering from the same bad coaching. Smith has done better with that same bad coaching than Horford has. Yet, you say that you would take Horford way before Smith??? :eek: That just doesn't really make any sense.

[Sothron]

No i know you have no clue what you are talking about. Saying the Hawks don't run any post plays is straight BS. Horford gets touches in the post he just can't do anything with them. He will try to back a guy down which he can't do and then shoot an off balance jump hook or fadeaway which regularly misses. Of course this is assuming he doesn't turn it over. He has a penchant for traveling when posting up. He isn't a post player now and never will be. I can't blame Woody for not calling more post ups for Horford.

Smith has improved a lot in the post and that is why he shot 49% on the season in spite of his frequent and errant jump shooting. He is able to get closer to the basket than Horford because he knows it is better to go around a bigger player. Horford can't seem to figure that out.

Even Marvin gets touches in the post. In fact he has the best jump hook on the team. Saying the Hawks never run post plays is just ridiculous.

I wonder how much longer the Horford excuse festival will go on.

I stopped reading after this sentence because I honestly could not stop laughing. The Hawks have ZERO low post offense because they never run any low post plays. They don't even run enough for it to be called "token". I don't know what axe you have to grind against Horford but blaming him for Woodson's lack of any kind of structured offense is simply not fair. I have major problems with Smoove's offensive game but I also factor into those criticisms the complete lack of direction and structure Woodson has for this team on offense.

[exodus]

I stopped reading after this sentence because I honestly could not stop laughing. The Hawks have ZERO low post offense because they never run any low post plays. They don't even run enough for it to be called "token". I don't know what axe you have to grind against Horford but blaming him for Woodson's lack of any kind of structured offense is simply not fair. I have major problems with Smoove's offensive game but I also factor into those criticisms the complete lack of direction and structure Woodson has for this team on offense.

You obviously didn't watch the games. Smith probably gets at least two or three post ups a game just by himself. JJ, Horford, Flip and Marvin all get regular looks in the post. Just because they don't get as many post ups as Tim Duncan doesn't mean they aren't posting up.

Horford's post moves blow. If he is going to be a legit scorer he is going to have to do it facing up. he is quick enough to drive by guys he just refuses to do it. It is ironic that the play he got hurt on was when he spun and drove right by Dwayne Wade. If he can drive past Wade why can't he drive against a big 7 foot stiff?

[AtLaS]

I stopped reading after this sentence because I honestly could not stop laughing. The Hawks have ZERO low post offense because they never run any low post plays. They don't even run enough for it to be called "token". I don't know what axe you have to grind against Horford but blaming him for Woodson's lack of any kind of structured offense is simply not fair. I have major problems with Smoove's offensive game but I also factor into those criticisms the complete lack of direction and structure Woodson has for this team on offense.

The Hawks actually did run quite a few postups for Smith this season, and did it pretty often in the playoffs. Smith improved his post game a lot this year and we definitely received points from it. Smith has the turnaround hook, and also added a nice up and under move on the block. He also has the ability to face up and drive past his man when he catches it down there. He's good with pump fakes as well.

Horford has a lot of low post work to do. With his back to the basket, he has the hook and the turnaround fadeaway. Neither of which are consistent. He needs to work on his moves or start taking more midrange jumpers since he's a solid shooter from that distance. Playing against centers who are all bigger than him, he's also going to have to learn the face up game, and he doesn't do that now.

[blissful1153]

Hi, I'm new here but I just found a great article by Lang Whitaker posted just a few minutes ago telling us why Josh won't be traded.

link

[Admin]

Hi, I'm new here but I just found a great article by Lang Whitaker posted just a few minutes ago telling us why Josh won't be traded.

link

Hmm, so according to Lang his trade number would be $17 million this year? I don't think that's concrete since from what I've read the trade kicker can be spread out cap wise over the remainder of his deal would make his cap number around $12 but either way it would make dealing him pretty difficult.

6) In talking to people about this deal, an interesting question came up that nobody had a concrete answer for: Say Josh got traded today. He made $10 million last season — and from what I was told, it would still be last season’s salary that would be his trade number, at least until July 1, when free agency starts. So his value in a trade would be $10 million.

Or would it? Because even though it’s not his salary, with the trade kicker involved, the team he would be traded to would be responsible for paying him not $10 million, but $17 million. Right? So is his trade number, for lack of a better term, $10 million or $17 million? I think it’s $17 million, at least that’s what I was told by one exec. Which would make trading him now even tougher.

[Admin]

Hi, I'm new here but I just found a great article by Lang Whitaker posted just a few minutes ago telling us why Josh won't be traded.

link

Oh and welcome to Hawksquawk! I think you're the first person to ever post a link in their first post without it being spam.

[exodus]

Hmm, so according to Lang his trade number would be $17 million this year? I don't think that's concrete since from what I've read the trade kicker can be spread out cap wise over the remainder of his deal would make his cap number around $12 but either way it would make dealing him pretty difficult.

I don't think this guy knows what he is talking about. I am not sure of this but i doubt that Smith's BYC status lasts until august. I also think they are wrong saying he can't be traded until august without his consent. I think that he can't be traded to Memphis until August.

I think he can be traded anywhere in july without being BYC.

[AHF]

I don't think this guy knows what he is talking about. I am not sure of this but i doubt that Smith's BYC status lasts until august. I also think they are wrong saying he can't be traded until august without his consent. I think that he can't be traded to Memphis until August.

I think he can be traded anywhere in july without being BYC.

Whitaker is wrong about the cap implications of the trade kicker but he wasn't saying that Smith couldn't be traded without his consent.

* He was saying that $7M is probably practically more than anybody can afford in this economy;

* Josh can waive part of that $7M kicker to make it more reasonable;

* Because Josh chooses whether to waive part of the kicker or not that means he can effectively block trades to teams that aren't willing to pay the fully $7M kicker within 30 days of the trade.

[Diesel]

LOL Do you want me to pull up your quotes about Horford not having a post game, which is what i just said?

I was dogging Smith all year about his 3s, leading the break and lack of boxing out. Horford is basically just a decent role player. I didn't bash him nearly as much as Smith.

Of course being Diesel you love to just make stuff up with nothing to back it up.

Haha, I never said Ididn't bring up Horf's shortcomings. I said Horf should develop a goto move this summer. I stand by that. He doesn't have a goto move and it's killing him at C or Pf. However, I'm not going to sit here and act as if I didn't say it First responder...

Back to you though...

You're in the change the subject phase already...

Predictable.

[exodus]

Whitaker is wrong about the cap implications of the trade kicker but he wasn't saying that Smith couldn't be traded without his consent.

2) Because the Hawks matched an offer sheet from Memphis to retain Josh, they can’t trade him for one year unless they get the consent of the player. So discussing trades and all that stuff right now would be a moot point unless Josh was the one who wanted to be traded. And I don’t believe that’s the case.

But because Josh was a restricted free agent last summer and the Hawks matched his deal, he is a Base Year Compensation player. Because he signed last year in the middle of August, the Hawks could not trade him until the middle of August

I think he is wrong on both counts.

[exodus]

Haha, I never said Ididn't bring up Horf's shortcomings. I said Horf should develop a goto move this summer. I stand by that. He doesn't have a goto move and it's killing him at C or Pf.

And what did i have to say in that thread? After all since Horford's name was brought up i had to be the first responder, right?

[Diesel]

And what did i have to say in that thread? After all since Horford's name was brought up i had to be the first responder, right?

Horf bashing First responder said....

Horford isn't a scorer, period. He gets to the line like the Eddie House of centers. He has no 1 on 1 game to speak off. He can be left wide open from 15 feet and not even look at the basket. He is a liability on offense much moreso than Smith even with Smiths obvious flaws.

This is your first post in the thread.

Predictably, you only posted to run a big bash on Horf. Saying that Horf needs a goto move and saying that he is the Eddie House of Centers having NO 1 on 1 game to speak of (not off) is two different things First responder.