Mark Bradley: Trade Marv for Caron Butler have Flip start at point

[Atlantaholic]

When was the last time Marvin drew a double team??

Caron Butler is an obvious upgrade and he would take a ton of pressure off of JJ... No way Washington does this trade though.

[Frenzy]

wow,are you guys saying that Marvin and Butler are essentially even? thats crazy.Butler is definately better and would be an upgrade.

Edited June 17, 2009 by falconfrenzy

[DrReality]

I don't see why the Wiz do this either. Seems they get the short end.

But one thing JJ has said for years is that he wants more vet help on the team and Butler would be that and would make us better. Also would like to see Crit develop.

[DeacKillsaDevil]

Maybe we throw in a future 1st or this year's first since the draft really isn't that deep.

[Joker]

Marvin haters are annoying

[AtLaS]

I'd do this trade in a heartbeat. But why would the Wizards?

[MVP23]

just another moron on this forum I see. Yes! Have Flip play 35 mins a game so he can be tired by game 78 of the Regular season!.....Marvin Williams will be a nice player. don't trade him. And wnats the point of signing him, just to trade him?

[DeacKillsaDevil]

just another moron on this forum I see. Yes! Have Flip play 35 mins a game so he can be tired by game 78 of the Regular season!.....Marvin Williams will be a nice player. don't trade him. And wnats the point of signing him, just to trade him?

Sign N trade? I would think you'd need to do this in order to get the salaries to work.

[ATLBob]

He's really not that much better (outside of passing ability). He's just more aggressive.

If Marvin took four more shots per game, he'd have better numbers than guys like Caron Butler and Richard Jefferson. If I were GM, I'd rather keep Marvin and ask Woodson to do a better job of integrating Marvin (and Horford) into the offense.

Exactly.

[ATLBob]

When was the last time Marvin drew a double team??

Caron Butler is an obvious upgrade and he would take a ton of pressure off of JJ... No way Washington does this trade though.

Butler is a short-term upgrade. He's also 29. Has only two years left on his contract (albeit a very reasonable one).

2011 will be his last opportunity to get paid.

This trade would not make the Hawks drastically better short term, I'm not sure it wouldn't hurt long term, and I too see no reason why the Wiz would play ball either.

Just lock Marvin up long-term and focus on our real problem positions.

[Diesel]

Just going to have to bite the bullet on this one Mr. H we can't fight the "aggresiveness" argument. Just going to have to accept that Caron can take more shots because he can create more one on one in Eddie Jordan's motion offense with two other credible offensive threats.

haha.

Two other "credible" offensive threats. I'm glad you didn't say more credible. I mean since you're showing all this humility and all. It would be foolish to think that Jamison and Nick Young are better threats than Bibby and Joe Johnson. Not to mention Smoove.

It just makes more sense to admit that the Allstar Caron Butler is just better than Marvin instead of continually trying to suggest that somehow if Marvin gets more time with more opportunities to shoot and if his wasn't clumsy and if he didn't have a problem with being aggressive that he could be better than Butler. That's like me saying if I ran a 4.2 40 and had great lateral quickness then I'd be a better linebacker than Ray Lewis.

[Packfill]

He's really not that much better (outside of passing ability). He's just more aggressive.

If Marvin took four more shots per game, he'd have better numbers than guys like Caron Butler and Richard Jefferson. If I were GM, I'd rather keep Marvin and ask Woodson to do a better job of integrating Marvin (and Horford) into the offense.

Agressiveness is a HUGE piece of the puzzle and the reason why Marvin is a complementary player, whereas Butler can be a leading man.

As bad as Woody's offense is I do not think the mediocre offensive outputs of Marvin and Horford are entirely attributable to the fact that they are not "integrated into the offense." Sure that is part of it, but the other part is the missing level of aggressiveness that top players have.

[Diesel]

I'd do this trade in a heartbeat. But why would the Wizards?

The only reason I can see Washington doing this trade is if they believed that Marvin was not that far off from Caron. They knew that they could sign Marvin for Cheaper than Caron and they had their eye on this year and 2010 with Speedy's contract. The Wizards are going into the luxury tax. This is not a good thing because they are not winning. IF they can't find somebody that will take #5 and Etan Thomas, they will go into the LT and will have to pay Double the amount that they are over. I doubt anybody goes for Etan Thomas. Even if it were Etan Thomas/#5 for Speedy/#19... I doubt that we'd even go for that. However, if they can get Speedy, they get 80% of what he makes back in cash as long as he doesn't play. That's 80% of 6+ Million. Nothing to sneeze at when you're looking to be over the LT. I figure they will be over the LT by 4 million without the pick and about 7-8 Million with the pick. That's 4 to 8 Million more that they would have to pay out of pocket. IF they can rid themselves of the pick... and get Speedy, they have dropped that all together.

Getting Marvin for Caron is the losing part of the trade, but Marvin is young and having him signed will bring some continuity for the next 5 years. The future planning part of this deal is that Caron will cost them 10.5 Million in 2010. It's very likely that they can get Marvin at about 6-7 Million in 2010. I don't think they get rid of Critt.. however, if they can get us to fork over more players (like Morris, Acie) they can send us another 2010 contract like Blatche.

Just imagine... If Sund could pull off:

Marvin, Speedy, Acie, future first for Butler, Blatche... I think we'd throw him a parade.

Washington is in huge financial problems.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Diesel

[MaceCase]

haha.

Two other "credible" offensive threats. I'm glad you didn't say more credible. I mean since you're showing all this humility and all. It would be foolish to think that Jamison and Nick Young are better threats than Bibby and Joe Johnson. Not to mention Smoove.

It just makes more sense to admit that the Allstar Caron Butler is just better than Marvin instead of continually trying to suggest that somehow if Marvin gets more time with more opportunities to shoot and if his wasn't clumsy and if he didn't have a problem with being aggressive that he could be better than Butler. That's like me saying if I ran a 4.2 40 and had great lateral quickness then I'd be a better linebacker than Ray Lewis.

But it's clear through all the stats that have been posted in this thread that Caron is only marginally better than Marv. He is not some entirely different player thanks to his "aggresiveness" I'd like to see a stat on that.

He is given too much credit aswell being able to take more shots and convert them. Washington's offense is nothing like ours and is similar to Orlando's in that there is constant motion to get everyone and any one open shots. Him and everyone else on that roster are not going 1 on 1 at the rate that we do with our offense thus why you can consistently have 3 starters average 20ppg in that offense. In any conventional offense despite the quality of the players there are not enough balls to maintain that production, look at the statistical dip the big 3 in Boston took playing together. Caron may be currently better than Marvin but he sure as hell is no All-Star in our offense, Joe who is a greater player is clearly only considered a marginal All-Star in our system. Trading for him doesn't improve our team, the same way that he didn't for Miami or LA and now Washington, especially when this plan calls for Flip Murray to be our starting PG.

[Joker]

But it's clear through all the stats that have been posted in this thread that Caron is only marginally better than Marv. He is not some entirely different player thanks to his "aggresiveness" I'd like to see a stat on that.

He is given too much credit aswell being able to take more shots and convert them. Washington's offense is nothing like ours and is similar to Orlando's in that there is constant motion to get everyone and any one open shots. Him and everyone else on that roster are not going 1 on 1 at the rate that we do with our offense thus why you can consistently have 3 starters average 20ppg in that offense. In any conventional offense despite the quality of the players there are not enough balls to maintain that production, look at the statistical dip the big 3 in Boston took playing together. Caron may be currently better than Marvin but he sure as hell is no All-Star in our offense, Joe who is a greater player is clearly only considered a marginal All-Star in our system. Trading for him doesn't improve our team, the same way that he didn't for Miami or LA and now Washington, especially when this plan calls for Flip Murray to be our starting PG.

Don't argue with Marvin haters, logic is the last resort for them. This trade was dumb as soon as it came out of the OP mouth.

[AtLaS]

However, if they can get Speedy, they get 80% of what he makes back in cash as long as he doesn't play. That's 80% of 6+ Million. Nothing to sneeze at when you're looking to be over the LT.

But, is Speedy still going to be paid by insurance considering he played in a few games (albeit limited minutes) in the playoffs?

[Diesel]

But it's clear through all the stats that have been posted in this thread that Caron is only marginally better than Marv. He is not some entirely different player thanks to his "aggresiveness" I'd like to see a stat on that.

Yeah. I don't ever think I have seen a stat go out and play a game? I've been waiting for that to happen. Like we people told me that Jim Jackson was statistically better than Smitty...I wanted to throw up. Especially after we traded for Jim "rubber band man" and immediately regreted it. You're right... Stats don't show "aggressiveness. Stats also don't show leadership. Stats don't show courage. All stats is is something that some guy made up for people who don't watch the game in person.

You can tell me that Chris Bosh is statistically superior to Bill Russell in his prime... but for my money, give me Russell in his prime. There's something that you can't capture by stats.

One important part of that is you can't capture the impact on the game. When you watch our games, Marvin has absolutely no impact. Sure, he gets good stats from time to time.. but impact wise, it's not the case of him making an impact. Butler is a more impactful player. He will take the final shot. He will shot with a hand in his face.

However, don't let me tell it...

I have others who will tell it much better....

I especially liked this one:

If the Wizards could make trades as lopsided as that in reverse:

Trade Arenas for Chris Paul

Trade Jamison for Stoudamire

Trade Butler for Joe Johnson

Trade Blatche for Ginobili

[coachx]

One important part of that is you can't capture the impact on the game. When you watch our games, Marvin has absolutely no impact. Sure, he gets good stats from time to time.. but impact wise, it's not the case of him making an impact.

I could not disagree more.

Marvin hit 3's for us in the last seconds of a few games for us this year. Normally JJ would control who the ball in crunch time and if JJ did not take the shot it was going to whoever was open out of Marvin, Bibby, and Flip.

Who was guarding the Paul Pierce and Lebron James of the world in crunch time......it was Marvin Williams. The Hawks really missed Marvin in the Cleveland series. A healthy Marvin would have made life more difficult on James compared to what the 6'5'' Mo Evans could do defensively vs. James.

Who gets aggressive and got to the free throw line when the offense bogs down ? Marvin Williams

Who gives us the ability to switch so much on defense ? A big part is Marvin Williams and his 6'9'' / 240 lb frame with tremendous reach. The Hawks defense was really exposed in the Cleveland series when Marvin was hurt. Mo Evans cannot switch up and play post defense vs. PFs like Marvin can.

Edited June 18, 2009 by coachx

[AtLaS]

Marvin for Caron I'd do in a second. The Wizards wouldn't.

But, the idea of Flip starting at PG is definitely one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard.

[MaceCase]

I especially liked this quote from the Wizard's boards,

marvin williams is a hands down better perimeter defender than Butler but this board doesn't value defense which is why we have close to the worst defensive starting four in the eastern conference and Haywood isn't all nba defensive either. just like management which is why we are close the worst defensive team for last few years.

I also like how your selective reading allows you to miss the part where they say they have made no intention of cutting payroll yet here we have you proposing trades to give them just that....

And all this BS about "aggresiveness" I guess a guy who makes his bones as our best perimeter defender, taking on all the tough assignments on defense so our AllStar can save his energy to hold the ball for 20seconds at a time shows zero impact on a game. I guess because Marvin isn't running ragged while still getting beat off the dribble like Mario so his defense gets overlooked, not to mention those clutch shots, rebounds, etc. etc.

Yea I look forward to getting Caron to replace Marvin even though he plays a position you constantly tout as "the easiest to play" while our real deficit at PG and C go untouched.

Yep getting Caron will definetly symbolize a great offseason for the team because he brings that "aggresiveness" that we have been missing *graaawl*