Mark Bradley: Trade Marv for Caron Butler have Flip start at point

[drzachary]

I don't think it's the stats that makes him a big upgrade I think that it's the intangibles and the fact that he wants to be the man and can take over a game. Marvin might be able to be that type of player but I haven't seen it out of him and I think that if Caron were put in Marvin's role it would make us a much better team.

I think saying that Marvin is as good as Caron doesn't pass the sniff test. Doesn't Caron face more doubleteams than Marvin, and take harder shots, on a routine basis? I'm asking here, not really sure.

[drzachary]

Marvin for Caron I'd do in a second. The Wizards wouldn't.

But, the idea of Flip starting at PG is definitely one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard.

If we're resigned to not having any sort of offense (in other words, if we're keeping Woody), the PG's role is that of a jump-shooter anyways, right? Might as well use what resources we have to improve elswhere (3, 5).

[Diesel]

I especially liked this quote from the Wizard's boards,

I also like how your selective reading allows you to miss the part where they say they have made no intention of cutting payroll yet here we have you proposing trades to give them just that....

And all this BS about "aggresiveness" I guess a guy who makes his bones as our best perimeter defender, taking on all the tough assignments on defense so our AllStar can save his energy to hold the ball for 20seconds at a time shows zero impact on a game. I guess because Marvin isn't running ragged while still getting beat off the dribble like Mario so his defense gets overlooked, not to mention those clutch shots, rebounds, etc. etc.

Yea I look forward to getting Caron to replace Marvin even though he plays a position you constantly tout as "the easiest to play" while our real deficit at PG and C go untouched.

Yep getting Caron will definetly symbolize a great offseason for the team because he brings that "aggresiveness" that we have been missing *graaawl*

HO hum..

Here's the bottom line. IF Marvin was an impact player, nobody would have criticism about him. What makes Marvin an easy target is that you can count on him to do his disappearing act. What makes him an easy target is that you can see guys like Flip coming in and being more aggressive then him and making you wonder... Dayuummm what are we paying Marvin all this money for? All of you Marvin protectors sit around and complain that Marvin don't get enough shots. It's not that he doesn't get the opportunity to shoot, Marvin just doesn't shoot unless he is wide open. That's the whole reason that Woody relies on ISO JOE in the first play. When Joe is isolated, guys like Marvin are wide open and they could take the shot if they didn't bungle or pass the ball away.

BTW... Marvin is not our best perimeter defender. Joe is. Marvin isn't that great of a defender. People just look for something to credit Marvin for. Marvin does nothing that impacts the game in a positive way.

[Diesel]

I could not disagree more.

Marvin hit 3's for us in the last seconds of a few games for us this year. Normally JJ would control who the ball in crunch time and if JJ did not take the shot it was going to whoever was open out of Marvin, Bibby, and Flip.

Coach you know what... This is so bad that I'm holding my nose.

Marvin did hit 3s for us in the last seconds of a few games.

Marvin hit 1 3 in the last second of the Boston Celtic game. The 6th game we played. Then Paul Pierce came back and hit another three that won the game for them.

In that same game, Mo Evans hit two clutch three pointers down the stretch. Once again, where was Marvin's impact? The worst part is that whenever a conversation about Marvin comes up here comes the Marvin Protection Force to call out "Marvin hit clutch threes"... give me a break... One three pointer... in the 6th game of the year. A game that we lost.

[Diesel]

I think saying that Marvin is as good as Caron doesn't pass the sniff test. Doesn't Caron face more doubleteams than Marvin, and take harder shots, on a routine basis? I'm asking here, not really sure.

You have silenced the Marvin WIlliams = Caron Butler fanbase with that inkling of truth.

[AHF]

My $.02:

Caron in 2009 is definitely a better player than Marvin 2009 (or Caron age 22 for that matter). He would be an instant upgrade for the immediate future. If our goal is to peak over the next few seasons and add another key scorer, he is the obvious choice.

Marvin's biggest problem is lack of aggressiveness. He is effective scoring the ball (most efficient starter) and rebounding (well above average for SF) but isn't aggressive enough in either area for my tastes.

I don't feel compelled to do this trade because I see Caron as having peaked, Marvin as still improving, and not much difference other than scoring but if we did the trade I would not feel bad about it at all.

Starting Flip at the point would be a huge mistake.

[exodus]

I dont' think Marvin can be a 20 ppg scorer and it isn't just because of a lack of aggressiveness. Most wing players who score 20 ppg are effective at shooting a pullup J off the dribble. I don't think Marvin really has that shot.

Every now and then you will see Marvin shoot a step back jumper but that isn't the same thing. When you take one or two hard dribbles to get the defender moving back and then pull up quickly for a J it is a very tough shot to defend. Marvin either doesn't have that shot or hasn't shown it yet.

[drzachary]

My $.02:

Caron in 2009 is definitely a better player than Marvin 2009 (or Caron age 22 for that matter). He would be an instant upgrade for the immediate future. If our goal is to peak over the next few seasons and add another key scorer, he is the obvious choice.

Marvin's biggest problem is lack of aggressiveness. He is effective scoring the ball (most efficient starter) and rebounding (well above average for SF) but isn't aggressive enough in either area for my tastes.

I don't feel compelled to do this trade because I see Caron as having peaked, Marvin as still improving, and not much difference other than scoring but if we did the trade I would not feel bad about it at all.

Starting Flip at the point would be a huge mistake.

I'm with you on all of this, except that I think it's a bit dishonest to simply say that Marvin is the most efficient starter.

This is a statistical truth, but leaves out some context. For example, when Joe and Marvin are both on the floor, Joe is seeing twice and sometimes triple the defensive attention. With equal defensive attention, my money would be on Joe being the most efficient.

This is not to say that Marvin is not an efficient scorer (or that he won't continue to improve.) I just think that elevating him above Joe Johnson in terms of efficiency, while statistically valid, may be largely a result of circumstance.

[MaceCase]

HO hum..

Here's the bottom line. IF Marvin was an impact player, nobody would have criticism about him. What makes Marvin an easy target is that you can count on him to do his disappearing act. What makes him an easy target is that you can see guys like Flip coming in and being more aggressive then him and making you wonder... Dayuummm what are we paying Marvin all this money for? All of you Marvin protectors sit around and complain that Marvin don't get enough shots. It's not that he doesn't get the opportunity to shoot, Marvin just doesn't shoot unless he is wide open. That's the whole reason that Woody relies on ISO JOE in the first play. When Joe is isolated, guys like Marvin are wide open and they could take the shot if they didn't bungle or pass the ball away.

BTW... Marvin is not our best perimeter defender. Joe is. Marvin isn't that great of a defender. People just look for something to credit Marvin for. Marvin does nothing that impacts the game in a positive way.

I seem to be confused here, so only Marvin gets criticism on this board? Because the rest of the team are all championship calibre but its Marvin that they are slinging around like dead weight thus why he gets the criticism? If so sir then I deeply apologize I was fully unaware of that I'll just go on to another thread to not see someone else get criticized.

[AHF]

I'm with you on all of this, except that I think it's a bit dishonest to simply say that Marvin is the most efficient starter.

This is a statistical truth, but leaves out some context. For example, when Joe and Marvin are both on the floor, Joe is seeing twice and sometimes triple the defensive attention. With equal defensive attention, my money would be on Joe being the most efficient.

This is not to say that Marvin is not an efficient scorer (or that he won't continue to improve.) I just think that elevating him above Joe Johnson in terms of efficiency, while statistically valid, may be largely a result of circumstance.

No arguments on that, but Marvin is a notably efficient scorer -- particularly with his efficiency drawing fouls and converting free throws. We can agree that Joe is a better and more efficient scorer, all things being equal, for sure. It is truly an apples to oranges comparison given the roles that Marvin and Joe play in our offense.

Edited June 19, 2009 by AHF

[Diesel]

I'm with you on all of this, except that I think it's a bit dishonest to simply say that Marvin is the most efficient starter.

This is a statistical truth, but leaves out some context. For example, when Joe and Marvin are both on the floor, Joe is seeing twice and sometimes triple the defensive attention. With equal defensive attention, my money would be on Joe being the most efficient.

This is not to say that Marvin is not an efficient scorer (or that he won't continue to improve.) I just think that elevating him above Joe Johnson in terms of efficiency, while statistically valid, may be largely a result of circumstance.

Dr. Zach.. there is so much truth in those paragraphs that even the staunches of Marvin Supporters should concede the point.

[Diesel]

I seem to be confused here, so only Marvin gets criticism on this board? Because the rest of the team are all championship calibre but its Marvin that they are slinging around like dead weight thus why he gets the criticism? If so sir then I deeply apologize I was fully unaware of that I'll just go on to another thread to not see someone else get criticized.

Nice try at a change of focus. It's indicative of the Marvin Protection Force. The bottom line is all players undergo scrutiny. It's only Marvin who needs his own protection force. Mainly because there are some still holding on to the idea that BK was right to pick him or that one day Marvin will turn out to be a good player. Marvin is what he is.. a role player who is a little above average as Sfs go. However, he's not worth the love he gets on this board. He's not worth the time devoted to wishing he would develop (while he plays the easiest position in SPORTS). Sf is even easier than First baseman. Defensive linemen have more duties than the Sf. Yet Marvin has taken 4 years to learn that and wants 7.355 Million more next year to continue his education of the easiest position. AHF would tell you that he's only 23 and he still needs time. When the truth is that He's played the position as a starter for the last 3 years. I could send the grocery boy from down the street to the Hawks facility and he could play Sf in Woody's system better than marvin with 2 weeks of work.

Let's end the excuse and realize the real situation. We shouldn't overspend like that for Marvin.

[AHF]

AHF would tell you that he's only 23 and he still needs time. When the truth is that He's played the position as a starter for the last 3 years. I could send the grocery boy from down the street to the Hawks facility and he could play Sf in Woody's system better than marvin with 2 weeks of work.

I'd tell you Marvin is a slightly above average starting SF who has improved every year and who is young enough that I expect continued improvement over the next several years. I also think Woody's system doesn't do much of anything to maximize the offensive potential of any of our forwards.

[drzachary]

I'd tell you Marvin is a slightly above average starting SF who has improved every year and who is young enough that I expect continued improvement over the next several years. I also think Woody's system doesn't do much of anything to maximize the offensive potential of any of our forwards.

Or guards... or centers...

[MaceCase]

Nice try at a change of focus. It's indicative of the Marvin Protection Force. The bottom line is all players undergo scrutiny. It's only Marvin who needs his own protection force. Mainly because there are some still holding on to the idea that BK was right to pick him or that one day Marvin will turn out to be a good player. Marvin is what he is.. a role player who is a little above average as Sfs go. However, he's not worth the love he gets on this board. He's not worth the time devoted to wishing he would develop (while he plays the easiest position in SPORTS). Sf is even easier than First baseman. Defensive linemen have more duties than the Sf. Yet Marvin has taken 4 years to learn that and wants 7.355 Million more next year to continue his education of the easiest position. AHF would tell you that he's only 23 and he still needs time. When the truth is that He's played the position as a starter for the last 3 years. I could send the grocery boy from down the street to the Hawks facility and he could play Sf in Woody's system better than marvin with 2 weeks of work.

Let's end the excuse and realize the real situation. We shouldn't overspend like that for Marvin.

And weak analogies and fabricated arguments are the lynchpin of the Marvin Attack Force. Marvin is already a good player and fits well in our "system", go on and on that he wasn't worth his draft position but he has atleast proven that he can be a contributor in this league while still improving. Teams are about chemistry and he and Al have fit well in our guard centric offense, niether are going to buck the system and freelance like Josh. Call that a lack of aggression or however you want it, I call that being team players no matter how flawed the gameplan is. You want to bring in another "Allstar" in Caron that won't maximize the talents of the other players on our team, go ahead. Just remember that Caron's time in Washington playing with two other AllStars hasn't once equated to the amount of wins we compiled last season. In fact his presence there hasn't once increased the teams win totals above what it was when Larry Hughes of all people was manning the third option next to Gil and Jamison. Stay on topic MAF'ers this thread is about having Caron come in and Flip be our new starting PG not lets get our shots in on ole Marv.

[Diesel]

I'd tell you Marvin is a slightly above average starting SF who has improved every year and who is young enough that I expect continued improvement over the next several years. I also think Woody's system doesn't do much of anything to maximize the offensive potential of any of our forwards.

I think you're overplaying this improvement card.

Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG% 3P% FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS

2006-07 20 34.0 mpg .433 FG% .244 3pt% .815 FT% 5.3 rebs 1.9 aassists 0.8 steals 0.5blocks 2.0 turnovers 13.1 points

2008-09 22 34.3 mpg .458 FG% .355 3pt% .806 FT% 6.3 rebs 1.3 assists 0.9 steals 0.6 blocks 1.1 turnovers 13.9 points

SO when you really look at the IMPROVEMENT... you're talk from 20 to 22 (first year starting to now)... a 2% jump in FG% which is probably because his outside shooting did improve (as you would hope for any young player)... Followed by a 1.0 rebounding jump (loss of Chillz should cause an increase in rebounds). And a minuscule 0.9 point increase.

Here's the bottom line. These are changes over two years starting. Nothing earth shaking. Not really that impressive. He has improved as you would expect a player to improve who is getting starter minutes over a period of time. However, the depth of his improvement doesn't suggest that he will all the sudden become much better than he is.

HE IS WHO WE THOUGHT HE WAS.

You guys just get all giddy about a guy because he gets 0.9 ppg and 1.0 rpg more than he did 2 years ago... and he's playing more minutes. That's sad.

Is this the only way you can begin to validate Marvin...

By saying that over the past 2 years, he has increased his scoring by 0.9 and his rebounds by 1.0?

Do you want to mention that his assists are down in that same period? OH.. I forgot, we're only pulling out the positive features.

I guess I will have to let you guys continue to try to make people believe that a house made of straw is just like a house made with bricks?

[Diesel]

Here's your final call Mace...

Would you pay Marvin 5 years 44.5 Million dollars for more of the same of what we've been getting. Through out potential. Potential never gets in the game and does anything, we're talking about what Marvin is doing now and has done over the last 4 years... Would you pay 44.5 Million over the next 5 years for that?

That's a yes or no question (by the way).

[MaceCase]

Here's your final call Mace...

Would you pay Marvin 5 years 44.5 Million dollars for more of the same of what we've been getting. Through out potential. Potential never gets in the game and does anything, we're talking about what Marvin is doing now and has done over the last 4 years... Would you pay 44.5 Million over the next 5 years for that?

That's a yes or no question (by the way).

Sorry buddy despite your inflated ego you don't get to dictate final calls here atleast not with me. Last I checked this thread wasn't about would you pay X Z amount of dollars so please pull back that salary card you enjoy overplaying. This thread is clearly would so and so option be better than our current option, my answer is no to that. How about your answer? No wait let me be more dramatic WILL A LINEUP OF FLIP, JOE, CARON, JOSH, AL BE BETTER THAN OUR CURRENT LINEUP? That is a yes or no question by the way that happens to be relevant to the thread

Edited June 19, 2009 by MaCeCase

[Diesel]

Sorry buddy despite your inflated ego you don't get to dictate final calls here atleast not with me. Last I checked this thread wasn't about would you pay X Z amount of dollars so please pull back that salary card you enjoy overplaying. This thread is clearly would so and so option be better than our current option, my answer is no to that. How about your answer? No wait let me be more dramatic WILL A LINEUP OF FLIP, JOE, CARON, JOSH, AL BE BETTER THAN OUR CURRENT LINEUP? That is a yes or no question by the way that happens to be relevant to the thread

This is Just the type of Flaccidity I thought I would see from your response?

Why is it that when pressed with the only question that matters, Marvin Fans won't answer?

I bottom lined it for you. I asked the only thing that matters for this upcoming free agency period... and what exactly do you do???

Try to change the subject?

At least with AHF, I can expect that he will give an excuse about Marvin's Age and then try to pump up a 0.9 ppg and 1.0 rpg increase as if it's something that means that Marvin's going to have a Rashard Lewis breakout season.

But Mace, you're just like Exodus. I should call you E Jr. because you have the same trait of Evade, Evade, Evade, change the subject, change the subject.

So just to check because I may be wrong, I will ask again....

If you were GM, Would you pay Marvin 5 years 44.5 Million dollars for what we have seen to date?

[MaceCase]

Try to evade? Avoid the subject? Uhm thats your card "would you pay so and so this amount" because that's the only way to legitimize your ridiculous argument based off your subjective view of how Marvin performs. How bout this, why don't you respond to my question as it pertains to the thread rather than asking a totally irrelevant question? Hmm how bout that. Oh wait I know why because you just want to polish off your MAF badge while touting the club motto rather than stick with the subject. Your just like a Sunday morning talking head. Rather than address the issue at hand you just wan't to continue on with your caricature of attacking the opponent and yelling the party's talking points.

Will trading for Caron and making Flip our starting PG elevate this team?

Wait why even bother, you're just going to respond with: nananana you didn't answer my question, typical Marvin lover blah blah blah, then go on to create a post proposing trading Speedy and Acie for Kobe.