Mark Bradley: Trade Marv for Caron Butler have Flip start at point

[Diesel]

Will trading for Caron and making Flip our starting PG elevate this team?

Wait why even bother, you're just going to respond with: nananana you didn't answer my question, typical Marvin lover blah blah blah...

Classical Ex stuff.

Answer a question with a question... i.e. Evade.

You were right though... I am going to call out your cowardice. It's funny that you have opinions about everything but when asked a question that matters, you ball up in the corner like I'm Joe Freakin Jackson and you just broke my favorite drinking cup. When you're tired of playing the victim and want to come back to the conversation, let me know. Because That was more cowardice than Lebron showed when he ran off the floor, jumped on the bus, and cried himself to sleep.

Look E Jr., If you want to discuss Flip as a starting PG, you can take that up with Bradley. I have not endorsed nor will I endorse anything that stupid. However, getting Caron in here makes us Better... that was decided probably by post #10 of this thread. Even the best Marvin Sack Squeezer will agree that if we could replace Marvin with Caron, there will be an immediate benefit. So your effort to evade is futile.

However, back to my question. You know, the one that has you falling like a white woman in a scary movie...

If you were GM, Would you pay Marvin 5 years 44.5 Million dollars for what we have seen to date?

This question is relative to the conversation because if we don't trade Marvin, we have to sign him to a QO and if we do that, we won't sign him for just one year... SO...

If you were GM, Would you pay Marvin 5 years 44.5 Million dollars for what we have seen to date?

[MaceCase]

Ahhhh again insults, weak analogies and fabricated arguments by our resident egotist. When all that is pushed through then he gets back to the prerequisite talking points of the MAF. I am now a coward because I refuse to allow you to browbeat me into your arbitrary question irrelevant to the conversation. You finally address my question as it is relevant to the thread by only expressing one sides opinion as it agrees with yours. Only then does anything hold any weight, when it coincides with your opinion. Pay no mind to counter-arguments that are rife full of statistics and analysis no all that is bunk because your subjective view is that our resident SF is worth nothing. But hey I'm just the "rookie" why should my opinion matter in regards to the messageboard Allstar over here. The clown prince of the internet toiling about expousing his opinion as though they are royal decrees. Lord forbid that anyone else here has a thought on a subject and dares post it because it's already become apparent that the internet is not big enough for your ego.

[drzachary]

Sorry buddy despite your inflated ego you don't get to dictate final calls here atleast not with me. Last I checked this thread wasn't about would you pay X Z amount of dollars so please pull back that salary card you enjoy overplaying. This thread is clearly would so and so option be better than our current option, my answer is no to that. How about your answer? No wait let me be more dramatic WILL A LINEUP OF FLIP, JOE, CARON, JOSH, AL BE BETTER THAN OUR CURRENT LINEUP? That is a yes or no question by the way that happens to be relevant to the thread

Hmm.. A more relevant question, IMO, might be:

Is PG, Jojo, Caron, Smoove, Al better than PG, Jojo, Marv, Smoove, Al?

The answer is CLEARLY yes. There are a bunch of other concerns (would Caron take money away that drastically reduces the team's capabilities elsewhere being the most obvious.)

[Dsinner]

My $.02:

Caron in 2009 is definitely a better player than Marvin 2009 (or Caron age 22 for that matter). He would be an instant upgrade for the immediate future. If our goal is to peak over the next few seasons and add another key scorer, he is the obvious choice.

Marvin's biggest problem is lack of aggressiveness. He is effective scoring the ball (most efficient starter) and rebounding (well above average for SF) but isn't aggressive enough in either area for my tastes.

I don't feel compelled to do this trade because I see Caron as having peaked, Marvin as still improving, and not much difference other than scoring but if we did the trade I would not feel bad about it at all.

Starting Flip at the point would be a huge mistake.

I agree. I'd much rather have Caron than Marvin but absolutely not if it meant Flip at the point. You guys are missing the bigger picture in this trade. The performance difference between Caron and Marvin is absolutely moot if it means Flip is at point. We are F'd if that happens.

[Diesel]

Hmm.. A more relevant question, IMO, might be:

Is PG, Jojo, Caron, Smoove, Al better than PG, Jojo, Marv, Smoove, Al?

The answer is CLEARLY yes. There are a bunch of other concerns (would Caron take money away that drastically reduces the team's capabilities elsewhere being the most obvious.)

Absolutely true. IN fact, aside from Bradley's title and E Jr's attempt to evade, nobody is talking about Flip at PG because Flip is not a PG. We can stick Acie at PG (where you have it) and the team with Caron is better than the team with Marvin. Like I said, this was obvious since post #10 of this thread.

You bring up a second legit question. What does taking Caron mean to our cap?

My thinking is that it means that we have to go with our own free agents instead of looking for somebody new until we're over the cap and then we can use the MLE. Moreover, it depends on how we trade for Caron. IF we trade Speedy, then we get something back.

But let's consider if we don't go for Caron.

Who is willing to pay Marvin 5 years 44.5 Million for what we have had thus far?

[Diesel]

I agree. I'd much rather have Caron than Marvin but absolutely not if it meant Flip at the point. You guys are missing the bigger picture in this trade. The performance difference between Caron and Marvin is absolutely moot if it means Flip is at point. We are F'd if that happens.

That's the problem, getting Caron doesn't mean that we have to go out and sign Flip?? I don't know where that's coming from???

[MaceCase]

Alright consider this. I've spent my early Sunday morning on a long distance phone call with my father and looking up some stats on Basketball-Reference.com while he rambles on.

Shane Battier Career Per36

FG%-3P%-FT%-TRb-Ast-Stl-Blk-Points

.447-.388-.751-5.1-2.0-1.2-1.1-10.7

Contract: 2years left $7,109,350 avg.

Tayshaun Prince Career Per36

FG%-3P%-FT%-TRb-Ast-Stl-Blk-Pts

.461-.370-.775-5.1-2.8-.7-.7-13.6

Contract: 2years left $10,736,570 avg.

Marvin Williams Career Per36

FG%-3P%-FT%-TRb-Ast-Stl-Blk-Pts

.450-.304-.801-6.2-1.6-1.0-.5-14.2

Contract: 5years $8.9 avg?

Just going by per36s Marvin is about dead even with these other SFs that happen to be the 4th or 5th offensive options on their respective teams. The only categories they have him beat in are 3 point shooting and assists. Marvin is a superior rebounder, free throw shooter and scorer though according to these stats. I know you despise age being brought into the argument (and statistics for that matter) but at only the age of 22 Marvin is already on par with them gaining a defensive reputation and adding 3point shooting to his repetoire. Now GMs and especially agents get paid to look at these stats and compare and contrast them to see where their players/clients fall in terms of what is adequate compensation. Throw in age and the all important potential then I believe it's hard to argue against Marvin making an average annual salary in between these two other starters. The only factors that would make a GM blink are the current economic hardships that are affecting the league.

Now you can go ahead and counter that but I ask that you use actual quantifiable evidence rather than subjective conjecture because that is, after all, what contracts are determined on.

[mrhonline]

Why are we arguing this now? Why not just wait a few weeks and see what's going to happen???

[MaceCase]

Now to get back to the topic of thread....I never once said that Marvin Williams is better than Caron Butler is currently but at 29 Caron is at his peak and not to far off in production than a 22 year old Marvin. The main difference that people are arguing are intangibles such as Caron's toughness and "aggresiveness", I say all that is bull s**t because his toughness hasn't actually affected the Wizards win/loss column or done anything to change the perception of that team for being one of the softest and worst defending teams in the league. The other argument is whether his addition would improve the team, outside of cap implications I say yes and no. Sure he would give us another go to scorer but we already have one in Joe at a similar position with similar skillsets. I don't believe that having two high scoring wings equals success for a team unless one of the wings is a very good knockdown perimeter shooter (think Iverson/Carmelo, Carter/Jefferson against Pierce/Allen, Sprewell/Houston). Butler is not that and the team is better served finding or developing a post scorer and a penetrator/distributor to make our offense more dynamic. Without that aspect our team is just going to go from Iso Joe to Iso Joe/Caron which doesn't improve the development of our frontcourt or change the aspect of our team being an outside-in instead of inside-out.

Please I know some people just want to disregard others' arguments because they immediately peg them as being in Team Smoove or Team Marvin or Team Al but I'm in niether teams. I like each player all equally and if I bring up a disagreement with a trade idea it's not because I'm "nut-hugging" it's because I don't see the merit of trading player X for player X with a different hairstyle. The trade has to improve the team or atleast set the team up for improvement not just now but in the future. Maybe because I'm younger than some of ya'll so I'm not that into instant gratification, after all I'm a Hawks, Eagles and Mets fan....so patience is all I have.

[Diesel]

Now to get back to the topic of thread....I never once said that Marvin Williams is better than Caron Butler is currently but at 29

Let's put a pen right there and remember this...

Caron is at his peak and not to far off in production than a 22 year old Marvin.

Caron has been the 1st option before. Marvin has not.

The main difference that people are arguing are intangibles such as Caron's toughness and "aggresiveness", I say all that is bull s**t because his toughness hasn't actually affected the Wizards win/loss column or done anything to change the perception of that team for being one of the softest and worst defending teams in the league.

Aggressiveness is huge! It doesn't have to make the difference for the wizards. It only matters when considering the difference between Butler and Marvin. The question is would Caron make our team better. The answer is yes. He has been a first option. He has played through double teams. Marvin hasn't. Marvin's stats are little Joe Johnson, Mike Bibby, Josh Smith gifts.

[ATLBob]

Who is willing to pay Marvin 5 years 44.5 Million for what we have had thus far?

Me.

[mrhonline]

Let's put a pen right there and remember this...

Caron has been the 1st option before. Marvin has not.

Aggressiveness is huge! It doesn't have to make the difference for the wizards. It only matters when considering the difference between Butler and Marvin. The question is would Caron make our team better. The answer is yes. He has been a first option. He has played through double teams. Marvin hasn't. Marvin's stats are little Joe Johnson, Mike Bibby, Josh Smith gifts.

You see, that's my issue. I'm not sure Caron would make that much of a difference under Woodson.

(And I don't think Caron himself would brag about his level of success being a "first option").

Edited June 21, 2009 by mrhonline

[Diesel]

You see, that's my issue. I'm not sure Caron would make that much of a difference under Woodson.

(And I don't think Caron himself would brag about his level of success being a "first option").

He doesn't have to be a first option. He has to be a guy who is willing to take over the game and take the pressure off of Joe. He's a guy who knows how he scores. Sometimes, a young team needs that experienced guy. The Bulls needed Bill Cartwright. The Lakers needed Glenn Rice. These Lakers needed D. Fisher. While all those other players were role players, we would be getting Butler (proposed) while he is at the top of his game. It's very simple. We move away from Hoping and wishing that our Sf would develop and could be more than just an outside set shooter... to knowing we have a guy who can put up points.

[thecampster]

He doesn't have to be a first option. He has to be a guy who is willing to take over the game and take the pressure off of Joe. He's a guy who knows how he scores. Sometimes, a young team needs that experienced guy. The Bulls needed Bill Cartwright. The Lakers needed Glenn Rice. These Lakers needed D. Fisher. While all those other players were role players, we would be getting Butler (proposed) while he is at the top of his game. It's very simple. We move away from Hoping and wishing that our Sf would develop and could be more than just an outside set shooter... to knowing we have a guy who can put up points.

A few things. One, I would pay Marvin for what he's bringing to the table. No questions asked.

Two, people on this board are too caught up in PPG. There is more to being a good basketball player than driving the ball to the basket and taking more shots (see everyone's gripes about Josh Smith shooting too much and for a higher percentage).

Three, Marvin is a better defender than Butler...Take the few extra PPG Butler's been scoring and Marvin more than makes up for that in the defensive stops category.

Four, this is pulled directly off the board post cited by MrHonline and covers the intangibles argument. "Over the course of two games, Williams, a guy who typically used 13 possessions in 34 minutes a game, used 50 possessions in 82 minutes of playing time, scored 52 points on those possessions and led Atlanta, without Joe Johnson, to two of the 16 road victories they managed over the course of the season." Without Joe Johnson, Williams asserted himself. Used the pick and roll and created his own shot and led the hawks to 2 of their 16 road victories last year. Aggressiveness is not the only intangible. Being a team player and fitting into the system for the good of the team is an even greater intangible. Something I always tell my youth sports teams is this. "You guys have got to stop doing things your own way. Having 13 guys being allstars but doing things 13 different ways will never win anything. Even if it's the wrong page, it's better that you all get on the same page. That way we'll have our best chance of winning." What you guys are seeing as a lack of aggressiveness, I see as being a true team player. Deferring to the bigger ego's on the team. He did it in college coming off the bench and he's doing it here too. The Hate against Marvin on this board is amazing. All 5 starters can not average 32 points and 15 rebounds a game. Some of them have to play a role to be successful as a team.

Five. If Butler were to come to us, does he become the 2nd option, 3rd option in the offense. How would his production affect the production of everyone else. Would JJ, Josh, Horford's production go down to get Butler his shots. There are no extra possessions created when a new player comes to the team. For Butler to keep scoring 20 ppg, he'll need to take 4 more shots a game than Marvin did. That's 4 less shots a game elsewhere for JJ, Horford, Smith. Getting Butler doesn't create more points, it just redistributes them.

Six. Butler had 3.1 turnovers per game last year. Williams had 1.2. This may seem small, but just remember that number when you say Butler creates his own shot. He also creates 1.9 more for the opponent every game.

[Diesel]

A few things. One, I would pay Marvin for what he's bringing to the table. No questions asked.

I don't see how anybody could pay Marvin ~ 9 Million over the next 5 years for what we've seen out of him so far. He's not that good. Turkoglu only makes 7 Million.

[Diesel]

Two, people on this board are too caught up in PPG. There is more to being a good basketball player than driving the ball to the basket and taking more shots (see everyone's gripes about Josh Smith shooting too much and for a higher percentage).

Three, Marvin is a better defender than Butler...Take the few extra PPG Butler's been scoring and Marvin more than makes up for that in the defensive stops category.

Four, this is pulled directly off the board post cited by MrHonline and covers the intangibles argument. "Over the course of two games, Williams, a guy who typically used 13 possessions in 34 minutes a game, used 50 possessions in 82 minutes of playing time, scored 52 points on those possessions and led Atlanta, without Joe Johnson, to two of the 16 road victories they managed over the course of the season." Without Joe Johnson, Williams asserted himself. Used the pick and roll and created his own shot and led the hawks to 2 of their 16 road victories last year. Aggressiveness is not the only intangible. Being a team player and fitting into the system for the good of the team is an even greater intangible. Something I always tell my youth sports teams is this. "You guys have got to stop doing things your own way. Having 13 guys being allstars but doing things 13 different ways will never win anything. Even if it's the wrong page, it's better that you all get on the same page. That way we'll have our best chance of winning." What you guys are seeing as a lack of aggressiveness, I see as being a true team player. Deferring to the bigger ego's on the team. He did it in college coming off the bench and he's doing it here too. The Hate against Marvin on this board is amazing. All 5 starters can not average 32 points and 15 rebounds a game. Some of them have to play a role to be successful as a team.

Just to address Marvin specifically from these points. You could have something if Marvin had played the whole year. However, Marvin didn't. Marvin missed the latter part of the season and guess what, we didn't miss Marvin. Hell, we went on a run with Marvin out. Most teams go in the crapper when they are missing an important part of their team. I'm not saying that we got better, but we definitely didn't show that we were missing his game. I think that showed pretty well in the playoffs too.

That is why if we can get a player who makes an impact on the team, we will be a much better team.

[exodus]

I don't see how anybody could pay Marvin ~ 9 Million over the next 5 years for what we've seen out of him so far. He's not that good. Turkoglu only makes 7 Million.

Funny that you mention Turgolu. Orlando signed him after he averaged 9 ppg shooting 40% for the Spurs. Not exactly the kind of numbers that garner a big contract.

[Dsinner]

That's the problem, getting Caron doesn't mean that we have to go out and sign Flip?? I don't know where that's coming from???

Well, I only mentioned it because that was the topic. I'm sure it's not the only way to get Caron but since that is the idea of the trade the OP suggested, than it is debatable. However, IMO, any trade that puts Flip at starting PG is a regressive one.

[MaceCase]

Just to address Marvin specifically from these points. You could have something if Marvin had played the whole year. However, Marvin didn't. Marvin missed the latter part of the season and guess what, we didn't miss Marvin. Hell, we went on a run with Marvin out. Most teams go in the crapper when they are missing an important part of their team. I'm not saying that we got better, but we definitely didn't show that we were missing his game. I think that showed pretty well in the playoffs too.

That is why if we can get a player who makes an impact on the team, we will be a much better team.

Surprisingly to some but we are a good team now and good teams are able to keep winning even without key parts. It doesn't lessen the importance of the missing part it just means the team was good enough to step it up without them for the most part. Boston were able to win without Garnett, Orlando without Jameer, LA without Bynum, Utah without Boozer and others, Philly without Brand, NOLA without Chandler/Peja, and Houston without TMac then Yao. They all had success but come playoff time when you are taking on nothing but good teams every other day for over a week, those missing pieces become more apparent. Your weaknesses are overexposed and taken advantage of as you need all hands on deck to get over the hump.

[uga2006]

Caron Butler is one of my favorite NBA players, but this just goes to show how ridiculously underrated Marvin is by Hawks' fans:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=yyZWK

Keep in mind that Marvin is six years younger:

Career Per 36 -

Butler --> 52.6 TS%, 46.3 eFG%, 5.4 OReb%, 13.8 DReb%, 14.8% Ast, 2.4 Stl%, 0.6 Blk %, 12.7 TO%

Williams --> 53.6 TS%, 46.5 EFG%, 5.7 OReb%, 14.9 DReb%, 7.5 Ast %, 1.4 Stl %, 1.1 Blk %, 11.0 TO%

Caron is a significantly superior passer and has more plays ran for him, but those are the only major differences in the two players.

2008-9 Per 36 -

Butler --> 55.2 TS%, 48.2 eFG%, 5.2 OReb%, 13.8 DReb%, 19.7% Ast, 2.2 Stl%, 0.6 Blk %, 14.3 TO%

Williams --> 56.9 TS%, 50.2 EFG%, 6.2 OReb%, 15.2 DReb%, 6.3 Ast %, 1.5 Stl %, 1.4 Blk %, 8.6 TO%

Butler would be an upgrade, but for how long???

Marvin is stupid underrated. The guy has all the skills in the world and it looks like he's starting to put it together. I'm not ready to give up on this guy just yet.