The essential post on Marvin and Josh Smith.

[Wurider05]

I got this off of the blog on the ajc. This guy nailed it. How can anyone argue with this.

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/200.../#comment-22519

]RealSquawk

[June 17th, 2009

10:43 pm

niremetal,

thank-you

I still don’t understand why people can’t see that Marvin is the guy you keep. You don’t trade away people improve something like he did over the summer, you don’t trade away someone who plays his role Mike Woodson asks for 15 to 16 and thats what you get. When he asked for 20 plus even though it was only needed twice you got the 20 plus and you got it in a more productive way then Joe.

Come on Josh Smith vs. Marvin Williams. One gets you out of your seat and the other plays basketball. One has a focus issue the other always comes to play shot going down or not. They both graduated the same year from high school one has been in the league a year longer, but who is more solid of a basketball player??? Who has the pass four summers working on his dribbling and his jump shot and his post moves with NBA stars? And who spent a summer working on his three point range? Who came back with those skill improved? Who has potential?

Ill say it again why trade either? But if you are going to trade someone please make it the person who can get us something that will get us out of the semi finals. Caron however so exciting isn’t going to get it done. Cause guess what? We got a small forward and guess what he is young? Wait isn’t that reason you all still have hope for Josh.

Do we go by age or years in the league. Because I thought years in the league were more important, but somebody knows how to play a season with a little consistency and someone knows how to come to play.

You want to talk about potential? Let’s look at it like this. One guy we are hoping can bring it all together (we fail to mention he has no post game, he can’t dribble, he doesn’t listen, and he makes bad decisions) that’s a lot to put together. And the other well the other lets see hmmm. needs to be more assertive? Or do you mean he needs to be more exciting? Think about it before you answer?

Assertive adjustment vs. learning how to play basketball.

By the way when you say someone needs to be more assertive you are saying they got the tools lets get him the ball more( something not in his control unless he wants to whine and pout like a little Smi I mean kid) .Period. When you say you are waiting for someone to get some post moves learn not to dribble up the court which i completely blame on the Antione Walker experiment and come to play or at least bring something to table every game it’s not a question of who you keep. Its a question of how long do you give the other guy?

Trade Marvin for what? ????????

And just going off PER I don’t like using stats, but I will through this one out there

Josh SMith for his position 19

Marvin Williams for his 13

If you take out the guys who played less than 60 games Josh moves to 15

Marvin Williams moves to 9

Just a stat or culmination of efficiency.

and MArk i was serious about you coming up with some grand trade Josh Smith scenario. It would be so much more relevant. Trade MArvin what are you trying to do take the heat off you boy?

MARVIN TRADE MARVIN?

[Supporter]

There's still the question of the back injury that Marvin had and how he responds during the upcoming season.

[MaceCase]

I got this off of the blog on the ajc. This guy nailed it. How can anyone argue with this.

Just wait and see....

[mattlanta]

He asks "Who has potential?" Josh Smith's potential far surpasses that of Marvin's. Sorry to say.

[NJHAWK]

Marvs back scares me too. As far as who has more potential it is pretty close. Josh's high flying act is already losing some steam because you dont see those great dunks and blocks as much as you did a year or two ago ( he has had ankle issues in his dfense). His jumper is still terrible and his rebounding isnt getting any better. Marv improved on the 3 but it didnt really help his overall scoring game. Injuries have slowed him down as well. I think Marv could be a great scorer if he was on a team that needed him to be a #1 or #2 option. I would like to keep both Marv and Josh unless we get a sweet offer.

[Diesel]

Uhm? Just because you agree with a guy doesn't mean "he nailed it". You should have just given a great big "ME TOO".

The failing of his argument and any argument that anybody wants to make on Smoove vs. Marvin is this...

Marvin is not aggressive.

That means a lot. It's not just a pro thing, it's a character trait. It's been his character every since he was a kid and he'd sit on the bench to let another kid play. Every since he was in college and he was the 6th man. Coach Roy Williams did a good job of lying to people as to why Marvin was a 6th man. He told them because there was a Senior in the same position and Marvin would have to play off the bench because he was a rookie? How many Rooks have Roy played since Marvin? A whole lot of em. Marvin just haven't shown that he has the capacity to be a game changer.

Josh Smith is the exact opposite. Josh Smith came into this league with no real skills other than Dunking. What you see from Josh now is a product of his labor. He still has a ways to go, but he's getting there. I think Josh's rough areas are magnified on this team. Such as his three point shooting. Josh attempted 87 three pointers this past season. 87! That's done from 152 two years ago. I would love to see Josh put up a Tim Duncan like 0 3pt attempts or even a Boshlike 49 3pt attempts... But atleast he is showing some improvement that he never gets credit for.

The major difference is that Smoove is an emotional player who can sometimes be a hothead and Marvin is a player who plays every game as if he doesn't care what the outcome will be. It was Marvin Williams who Charles Barkley ridiculed about laughing on the bench and asking Lebron for his autograph. That goes back to his unaggressiveness. Give me Smoove everyday. I know that Smoove is going to play hard and approach the game as though the game matters. I would love to see Smoove under a new coach though.

[thecampster]

Uhm? Just because you agree with a guy doesn't mean "he nailed it". You should have just given a great big "ME TOO".

The failing of his argument and any argument that anybody wants to make on Smoove vs. Marvin is this...

Marvin is not aggressive.

That means a lot. It's not just a pro thing, it's a character trait. It's been his character every since he was a kid and he'd sit on the bench to let another kid play. Every since he was in college and he was the 6th man. Coach Roy Williams did a good job of lying to people as to why Marvin was a 6th man. He told them because there was a Senior in the same position and Marvin would have to play off the bench because he was a rookie? How many Rooks have Roy played since Marvin? A whole lot of em. Marvin just haven't shown that he has the capacity to be a game changer.

Josh Smith is the exact opposite. Josh Smith came into this league with no real skills other than Dunking. What you see from Josh now is a product of his labor. He still has a ways to go, but he's getting there. I think Josh's rough areas are magnified on this team. Such as his three point shooting. Josh attempted 87 three pointers this past season. 87! That's done from 152 two years ago. I would love to see Josh put up a Tim Duncan like 0 3pt attempts or even a Boshlike 49 3pt attempts... But atleast he is showing some improvement that he never gets credit for.

The major difference is that Smoove is an emotional player who can sometimes be a hothead and Marvin is a player who plays every game as if he doesn't care what the outcome will be. It was Marvin Williams who Charles Barkley ridiculed about laughing on the bench and asking Lebron for his autograph. That goes back to his unaggressiveness. Give me Smoove everyday. I know that Smoove is going to play hard and approach the game as though the game matters. I would love to see Smoove under a new coach though.

It sometimes scares me how often we agree on things.

I'm not for trading Marvin though. I'm for letting the market decide his salary and then sign and trade if possible...I think the sell value on Marvin will eventually be higher than on Josh and that is the thought process

[Diesel]

It sometimes scares me how often we agree on things.

I'm not for trading Marvin though. I'm for letting the market decide his salary and then sign and trade if possible...I think the sell value on Marvin will eventually be higher than on Josh and that is the thought process

While I don't care for Marvin's lack of aggressiveness, I still think that we should recoup some value for him. I would not let Marvin just walk unless some team offered him a deal that was beyond the QO.

[Joker]

I'm not as down on Smith as I used to be since he has improved a lot. He's would be great in a fast break system with a true PG like Phoenix. He's not a iso-offensive player or an offense that's very difficult to understand. He just needs to be in a offense where you think quick, because the more he thinks, the more he struggles. He has a lot of trade value. More than some Hawk fans give him. Marvin has a lot more trade value than some Hawk fans give him. We have a lot of talent on this roster. We really don't need our #1 round pick for what's available at our slot.

[Joker]

Uhm? Just because you agree with a guy doesn't mean "he nailed it". You should have just given a great big "ME TOO".

The failing of his argument and any argument that anybody wants to make on Smoove vs. Marvin is this...

Marvin is not aggressive.

That means a lot. It's not just a pro thing, it's a character trait. It's been his character every since he was a kid and he'd sit on the bench to let another kid play. Every since he was in college and he was the 6th man. Coach Roy Williams did a good job of lying to people as to why Marvin was a 6th man. He told them because there was a Senior in the same position and Marvin would have to play off the bench because he was a rookie? How many Rooks have Roy played since Marvin? A whole lot of em. Marvin just haven't shown that he has the capacity to be a game changer.

Josh Smith is the exact opposite. Josh Smith came into this league with no real skills other than Dunking. What you see from Josh now is a product of his labor. He still has a ways to go, but he's getting there. I think Josh's rough areas are magnified on this team. Such as his three point shooting. Josh attempted 87 three pointers this past season. 87! That's done from 152 two years ago. I would love to see Josh put up a Tim Duncan like 0 3pt attempts or even a Boshlike 49 3pt attempts... But atleast he is showing some improvement that he never gets credit for.

The major difference is that Smoove is an emotional player who can sometimes be a hothead and Marvin is a player who plays every game as if he doesn't care what the outcome will be. It was Marvin Williams who Charles Barkley ridiculed about laughing on the bench and asking Lebron for his autograph. That goes back to his unaggressiveness. Give me Smoove everyday. I know that Smoove is going to play hard and approach the game as though the game matters. I would love to see Smoove under a new coach though.

Marvin has gotten a lot more aggressive, you always talk about him like he's Acie. I know you can't stand him but don't cut him short either.

[NineOhTheRino]

Uhm? Just because you agree with a guy doesn't mean "he nailed it". You should have just given a great big "ME TOO".

The failing of his argument and any argument that anybody wants to make on Smoove vs. Marvin is this...

Marvin is not aggressive.

That means a lot. It's not just a pro thing, it's a character trait. It's been his character every since he was a kid and he'd sit on the bench to let another kid play. Every since he was in college and he was the 6th man. Coach Roy Williams did a good job of lying to people as to why Marvin was a 6th man. He told them because there was a Senior in the same position and Marvin would have to play off the bench because he was a rookie? How many Rooks have Roy played since Marvin? A whole lot of em. Marvin just haven't shown that he has the capacity to be a game changer.

Josh Smith is the exact opposite. Josh Smith came into this league with no real skills other than Dunking. What you see from Josh now is a product of his labor. He still has a ways to go, but he's getting there. I think Josh's rough areas are magnified on this team. Such as his three point shooting. Josh attempted 87 three pointers this past season. 87! That's done from 152 two years ago. I would love to see Josh put up a Tim Duncan like 0 3pt attempts or even a Boshlike 49 3pt attempts... But atleast he is showing some improvement that he never gets credit for.

The major difference is that Smoove is an emotional player who can sometimes be a hothead and Marvin is a player who plays every game as if he doesn't care what the outcome will be. It was Marvin Williams who Charles Barkley ridiculed about laughing on the bench and asking Lebron for his autograph. That goes back to his unaggressiveness. Give me Smoove everyday. I know that Smoove is going to play hard and approach the game as though the game matters. I would love to see Smoove under a new coach though.

Brilliantly stated Diesel

[Joker]

Brilliantly stated Diesel

Really? I guess you forget the big shots Marvin hit during the season for us or and defense he plays in the final minutes of the game. Making up trash is the reason why Marvin haters are annoying. Not for any other reason, hate all you want but making up untrue statements is wrong. I agree that Marvin doesn't have the temperament to be a superstar but to say he's trash or not a good player is crazy too.

Edited June 18, 2009 by nbasuperstar40

[exodus]

While I don't care for Marvin's lack of aggressiveness, I still think that we should recoup some value for him. I would not let Marvin just walk unless some team offered him a deal that was beyond the QO.

It is ironic that you have Steve Smiths jersey in your sig. Marvin is the first Hawk since Smith to get to the line 20 times in a game and gets to the line more often per shot attempt than anyone on the team. Yet somehow you harp on his lack of aggression as if it is a huge flaw. Diesel logic at it's best.

[NineOhTheRino]

Really? I guess you forget the big shots Marvin hit during the season for us or and defense he plays in the final minutes of the game. Making up trash is the reason why Marvin haters are annoying. Not for any other reason, hate all you want but making up untrue statements is wrong. I agree that Marvin doesn't have the temperament to be a superstar but to say he's trash or not a good player is crazy too.

Honestly I don't care for either guy that much. I do agree with Diesel in that Marvin seems to be OK with losing. I too have seen Marvin laughing and chewing it up on the bench while the team was losing by 20. Josh is the more competitive of the two. Josh hates losing and that's the attitude I want on my team. Sure Marvin is the more talented player but it can't always be about talent.

[HawksFan87]

I thought this was a comment from someone who actually mattered, nope just a guy that you agree with .. so NEXT!!!

[NJHAWK]

Woo there Diesel. I have seen plenty of games where Smoove was out to lunch or on another planet. It happened this year in some games and last year during the playoff games in Boston.

[TheDude]

this whole mess is created imo because we have a coach that doesnt play a style of bbal we are created to do.

[macdaddy]

To say Smoove hasn't improved much is a joke.

All i have to say is if I'm the owner of the team, and I have to choose, I keep the guy that not only fills up the stat sheet and alters games but has fans wearing his jersey and talking about it him everyday. I keep him over the steady, quiet, decent production guy. If I can't keep both, which in this case I can.

[Packfill]

I got this off of the blog on the ajc. This guy nailed it. How can anyone argue with this.

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/200.../#comment-22519

]RealSquawk

[June 17th, 2009

10:43 pm

niremetal,

thank-you

I still don’t understand why people can’t see that Marvin is the guy you keep. You don’t trade away people improve something like he did over the summer, you don’t trade away someone who plays his role Mike Woodson asks for 15 to 16 and thats what you get. When he asked for 20 plus even though it was only needed twice you got the 20 plus and you got it in a more productive way then Joe.

Come on Josh Smith vs. Marvin Williams. One gets you out of your seat and the other plays basketball. One has a focus issue the other always comes to play shot going down or not. They both graduated the same year from high school one has been in the league a year longer, but who is more solid of a basketball player??? Who has the pass four summers working on his dribbling and his jump shot and his post moves with NBA stars? And who spent a summer working on his three point range? Who came back with those skill improved? Who has potential?

Ill say it again why trade either? But if you are going to trade someone please make it the person who can get us something that will get us out of the semi finals. Caron however so exciting isn’t going to get it done. Cause guess what? We got a small forward and guess what he is young? Wait isn’t that reason you all still have hope for Josh.

Do we go by age or years in the league. Because I thought years in the league were more important, but somebody knows how to play a season with a little consistency and someone knows how to come to play.

You want to talk about potential? Let’s look at it like this. One guy we are hoping can bring it all together (we fail to mention he has no post game, he can’t dribble, he doesn’t listen, and he makes bad decisions) that’s a lot to put together. And the other well the other lets see hmmm. needs to be more assertive? Or do you mean he needs to be more exciting? Think about it before you answer?

Assertive adjustment vs. learning how to play basketball.

By the way when you say someone needs to be more assertive you are saying they got the tools lets get him the ball more( something not in his control unless he wants to whine and pout like a little Smi I mean kid) .Period. When you say you are waiting for someone to get some post moves learn not to dribble up the court which i completely blame on the Antione Walker experiment and come to play or at least bring something to table every game it’s not a question of who you keep. Its a question of how long do you give the other guy?

Trade Marvin for what? ????????

And just going off PER I don’t like using stats, but I will through this one out there

Josh SMith for his position 19

Marvin Williams for his 13

If you take out the guys who played less than 60 games Josh moves to 15

Marvin Williams moves to 9

Just a stat or culmination of efficiency.

and MArk i was serious about you coming up with some grand trade Josh Smith scenario. It would be so much more relevant. Trade MArvin what are you trying to do take the heat off you boy?

MARVIN TRADE MARVIN?

I think it is pretty easy to argue with that.

At the end of the day, neither Smith nor Williams have proven to be true impact players. Neither is particularly consistent either. I would love to see them perform with a proper coach and point guard. Hordford too.

I would easily trade any of Smith, Williams or Horford for a true elite player.

In the end though, we are probably talking about to complementary players rather then leading men.

[NJHAWK]

If you think that Josh Smith is going to start crashing the offensive boards with the effort of lets say ZaZa you are sadly mistaken. Josh Smith is just not as Diesel would say " aggressive enough". As for the defensive boards he thinks a "box out" is the style of hair his dad had when he is holding Smoove in his baby pictures.

Edited June 18, 2009 by NJHAWK