Something to think about and consider!

[Wurider05]

We won 47 games last year and had major injuries in the playoffs and the regular season. We don't know what could have happened if we would have been at full strength. We have a good young team and while we can conjecture as to who might make us better the big question is "might". All we need to do is look at the Clippers. With the talent that they have how in the hell were they not in the finals. I mean Phoenix with Amare wasn't too much better than us. Look at the Raptors people had big predictions for them when they got O'Neil. Same with AI, Elton Brand, Richard Jefferson/Charlie V, TJ Ford in Indiana.

I say we get us a point guard, tweak the bench, and go to war with JJ-Marv-Smoove-Horf for at least one more season. I was listening to 3D after dark yesterday and a caller made a comment that really made me think. They were discussing trading Smoove and he stated that if it came down to Smoove vs. Woody you should go with Woody. His reasons was the Woody has improved every year he has been on the job and the same couldn't be stated for Josh. I am not starting a Smoove thread but rather I think that we seem to overlook what Woody has accomplished even with all of his flaws. I know that his offense sucks but you can't argue with the results. Even with Smoove's boneheadedness, JJ's disappearing act, Bibby's matador defense, Marvin's alleged lack of aggressiveness and impact, Horf's undersizeness--we were able to win 47 games and hell we could have possible won over 50 easily.

So from here on out there my belief is that we stand pat and tweak or bench and get a pg. So no more threads on who we need to keep and get rid of. Like I stated before we all can agree that we need to upgrade the pg spot. Sometimes adding more/better talent doesn't always make a team better.

While we all are debating about who needs to be moved and kept ( I am guilty as charged). The one thing that nearly everyone seems to agree on is that Bibby shouldn't comeback. How funny is that!!!

[NJHAWK]

Exactly, people think that this Hawks rebuilding project was just destined to work no matter what. Well some teams rebuild and rebuild and they dont get better. For a team that is one of the leagues youngest and never hit the lottery with a Dwight Howard or Lebron like game changer with the #1 pick, Woody and even Knight did a dam good job. Oh and please dont tell me Paul is game changer. I think the last couple playoffs show that while he is a nice offensive player in the regular season he can be shut down come playoff time and be taken complete advantage of on the defensive end. I dot give a rats bird how amny writers voted for him on the all defensive team, he cant guard period.

Edited June 18, 2009 by NJHAWK

[macdaddy]

I agree with you. We need a PG and we need another back up big. If we get those two things and keep the rest of the guys I think we're a very good team. I little more faith and patience with our post guys and we could be really dangerous.

[mrhonline]

I agree with tweaking. That's why I'm tired of the trade Smith/Marvin/JJ ideas, and would rather focus on what can be acquired with the other assets:

Claxton, Law, #19, Andersen, etc.

[coachx]

I agree with tweaking. That's why I'm tired of the trade Smith/Marvin/JJ ideas, and would rather focus on what can be acquired with the other assets:

Claxton, Law, #19, Andersen, etc.

Hinerich, Ford, Alston, Duhon, Blake

Rights to Anderson for Alston (I would personally hate this deal. I think Anderson would blow up in Orlando's sytem next to Howard with the way Anderson can shoot ball and I think Alston is a locker-room killer). This softens the blow if they lose Turkelough.

I bet Bird likes Anderson but he already has Murphy. Would he still consider Ford for Anderson ? Word is they like Jack and want to draft another PG.

I would personally like to keep Law / Anderson and trade Claxton / #19 for Hinerich if Lawson or Teague do not fall to us at #19. Then renounce Bibby July 1.

I doubt Chillz rights carry much value but it may be a nice pot sweetner.

Edited June 18, 2009 by coachx

[MaceCase]

:cheers:

[exodus]

Exactly, people think that this Hawks rebuilding project was just destined to work no matter what. Well some teams rebuild and rebuild and they dont get better. For a team that is one of the leagues youngest and never hit the lottery with a Dwight Howard or Lebron like game changer with the #1 pick, Woody and even Knight did a dam good job. Oh and please dont tell me Paul is game changer.

If you don't think Paul is a game changer you need to go to the store and buy a clue. He was an MVP candidate last year.

Utah and NOH both sucked in 2005. Picking after us they got franchise players. Roy is Portlands franchise player and two time All-Star. We picked Shelden instead.

The Hawks had the chance to get franchise players and blew it. It has nothing to do with luck.

It is easy to say just stand pat and just tweak but that ignores reality. When you have a bench of guys on their rookie contracts sooner or later financial reality will hit when their rookie contracts are up.

The only pgs the Hawks have under contract for next season are Acie and Speedy. The Hawks are undersized with a weak bench. Nice job BK. :sad:

[HawkItus]

I agree, but I want a young point guard, if Acie is not going to get a chance. Lawson, Douglas etc. Somebody who will come in and work. We don't need another ego, or agenda on this squad. We need soldiers like Marvin, Zaza and Horford. Get a young point who'll come off the bench/Start whatever the coaches tell him to do and do it well.

[txsting]

We won 47 games last year and had major injuries in the playoffs and the regular season. We don't know what could have happened if we would have been at full strength. We have a good young team and while we can conjecture as to who might make us better the big question is "might". All we need to do is look at the Clippers. With the talent that they have how in the hell were they not in the finals. I mean Phoenix with Amare wasn't too much better than us. Look at the Raptors people had big predictions for them when they got O'Neil. Same with AI, Elton Brand, Richard Jefferson/Charlie V, TJ Ford in Indiana.

I say we get us a point guard, tweak the bench, and go to war with JJ-Marv-Smoove-Horf for at least one more season. I was listening to 3D after dark yesterday and a caller made a comment that really made me think. They were discussing trading Smoove and he stated that if it came down to Smoove vs. Woody you should go with Woody. His reasons was the Woody has improved every year he has been on the job and the same couldn't be stated for Josh. I am not starting a Smoove thread but rather I think that we seem to overlook what Woody has accomplished even with all of his flaws. I know that his offense sucks but you can't argue with the results. Even with Smoove's boneheadedness, JJ's disappearing act, Bibby's matador defense, Marvin's alleged lack of aggressiveness and impact, Horf's undersizeness--we were able to win 47 games and hell we could have possible won over 50 easily.

So from here on out there my belief is that we stand pat and tweak or bench and get a pg. So no more threads on who we need to keep and get rid of. Like I stated before we all can agree that we need to upgrade the pg spot. Sometimes adding more/better talent doesn't always make a team better.

While we all are debating about who needs to be moved and kept ( I am guilty as charged). The one thing that nearly everyone seems to agree on is that Bibby shouldn't comeback. How funny is that!!!

I have to agree with this tweaking approach for now as well. I think we might have a longer term issue in the frontcourt, I said MIGHT. I think it's probably best to ride out the "internal improvement" magic carpet until we flatten out. Guys, we can speculate, but we haven't yet hit a ceiling. Let's find the ceiling and THEN figure out what is the big move to get us over the top. It's Sund's job to listen to everything and work all the angles, and if there's some wonderful big deal out there, like getting a Pau Gasol for SHHHyyyTT, then yeah do it. Otherwise, keep tweaking.

This economy situation is lucky for us in that we have a bunch of contracts up at this time. We may be able re-sign guys like Marvin below market just on the timing of it. I like the Bibby/Flip combo and if the price is right, don't mind seeing them both back. Otherwise, it would be nice to have a defensive, athletic, drive-and-dish type at the point, coupled with a big combo guard with deep range. And a defensive big off the bench, perhaps to replace Zaza if he leaves, would be great.

[Dragitoff]

The thing is I don't think you can keep the same core of players and bring back guys you want like Flip, ZaZa and still have enough money or assets to acquire another PG and another backup big. Maybe it's just me. I've looked at this thing every which way and it would take some extremely crafty manuevering to do it. Sekou had a blog or an article a month or so ago talking about how the Hawks really only needed to add a few guys like Charlie V. or Trevor Ariza to put them at a higher level. While I agree, I don't know that we can financially do that. Do vets like McDyess, Gooden, Joe Smith, etc... like at Atlanta and say, "I think they're close enough I'll take a vet min. deal to play there"? Unfortunately, I don't think we're there yet. Maybe so though.

[exodus]

The thing is I don't think you can keep the same core of players and bring back guys you want like Flip, ZaZa and still have enough money or assets to acquire another PG and another backup big. Maybe it's just me. I've looked at this thing every which way and it would take some extremely crafty manuevering to do it. Sekou had a blog or an article a month or so ago talking about how the Hawks really only needed to add a few guys like Charlie V. or Trevor Ariza to put them at a higher level. While I agree, I don't know that we can financially do that. Do vets like McDyess, Gooden, Joe Smith, etc... like at Atlanta and say, "I think they're close enough I'll take a vet min. deal to play there"? Unfortunately, I don't think we're there yet. Maybe so though.

Exactly. When guys come off their rookie contracts and get a big raise (like Smith did last year) it changes things around. Add to that the economic realities and the ASG situation and it isn't unreasonable to expect some tightening of the purse strings.

[coachx]

I doubt Chillz rights carry much value but it may be a nice pot sweetner.

Forgot Chillz rights cannot be traded.

All we can do is a sign and trade with him.

[HawksFan87]

The fact that he said Smoove hasn't improved every year is BS, and anyone who would keep Woody over Smoove.. Is an idiot.. period...

[coachx]

Speedy for Duhon would be the easiest trade to make as a simple 1 for 1 swap. the knicks would get the expiring deal they want.

The question is do you realy want Duhon with 4 more years on his contract ? Duhon and Law may not be all that bad at PG. The defense would definately improve and Duhon can hit the 3.

I know we would all rather have the Bulls' Chris Hinrich, BUT this way we could keep the #19 pick while saving a little money since the #19 pick and Duhon would be cheaper then Hinrich.

[Admin]

If you don't think Paul is a game changer you need to go to the store and buy a clue. He was an MVP candidate last year.

Utah and NOH both sucked in 2005. Picking after us they got franchise players. Roy is Portlands franchise player and two time All-Star. We picked Shelden instead.

The Hawks had the chance to get franchise players and blew it. It has nothing to do with luck.

It is easy to say just stand pat and just tweak but that ignores reality. When you have a bench of guys on their rookie contracts sooner or later financial reality will hit when their rookie contracts are up.

The only pgs the Hawks have under contract for next season are Acie and Speedy. The Hawks are undersized with a weak bench. Nice job BK. :sad:

It has nothing to do with luck? That's not completely true. Had we been "lucky" we would have ended up with the 3rd, 4th, or 5th pick in the 05 draft and not been expected to take the guy that was supposed to be the franchise player from that draft Marvin Williams. He was the consensus #2 pick and consensus best player from that draft and we pretty much had to take him. Both Paul and Deron had major question marks and it was lucky for Utah and NOH that they both proved the experts wrong. But your point is valid in that we missed out on franchise players with the Marvin and Shelden selections no doubt.

[MaceCase]

Speedy for Duhon would be the easiest trade to make as a simple 1 for 1 swap. the knicks would get the expiring deal they want.

The question is do you realy want Duhon with 4 more years on his contract ? Duhon and Law may not be all that bad at PG. The defense would definately improve and Duhon can hit the 3.

I know we would all rather have the Bulls' Chris Hinrich, BUT this way we could keep the #19 pick while saving a little money since the #19 pick and Duhon would be cheaper then Hinrich.

Duhon's deal is an expiring aswell not 4 years.

[AtLaS]

supposed to be the franchise player from that draft Marvin Williams. He was the consensus #2 pick and consensus best player from that draft and we pretty much had to take him.

We had to take him? Marvin was a bench player who choked in every big game of the NCAA tourney. He averaged 10 ppg. He had shown no goto moves. The only thing he showed was nice form on his jumper and the fact that he was 6'8 and athletic. It was a pure potential pick.

We also already had 5 SFs on the roster (3 of which were drafted in the 1st round in the past 2 seasons) and needed a PG more than any other team in the NBA. Marvin was only ranked about 8-9 in his high school rankings the year before and was below late first rounders like Smith. He couldn't even lead his high school team to a winning record.

He also came to his workouts out of shape while Chris Paul said he had his best workout here and stated that he WANTED to play for the Hawks.

If there ever was a dumb pick, that was it.

Both Paul and Deron had major question marks and it was lucky for Utah and NOH that they both proved the experts wrong. But your point is valid in that we missed out on franchise players with the Marvin and Shelden selections no doubt.

If Paul and Deron had question marks, than Marvin was a snowball's chance in hell.

[exodus]

It has nothing to do with luck? That's not completely true. Had we been "lucky" we would have ended up with the 3rd, 4th, or 5th pick in the 05 draft and not been expected to take the guy that was supposed to be the franchise player from that draft Marvin Williams. He was the consensus #2 pick and consensus best player from that draft and we pretty much had to take him. Both Paul and Deron had major question marks and it was lucky for Utah and NOH that they both proved the experts wrong. But your point is valid in that we missed out on franchise players with the Marvin and Shelden selections no doubt.

Marvin was never considered the best player. Marvin was considered the guy who could potentially be the best player down the line. There is a big difference and the perceived gap between him and Paul/Deron was not as big as you are trying to make out. Even before the draft our buddy Ford had marvin ahead of Paul/Deron on his board but said that gap wasn't that big.

GM's get paid to make those decisions. Given that the Hawks had 4 top 6 picks in 4 years and only have two role players to show for it that has to be considered a failure.

[Admin]

The fact that he said Smoove hasn't improved every year is BS, and anyone who would keep Woody over Smoove.. Is an idiot.. period...

Josh Smith didn't improve this year, he regressed in several areas. Down 1.5 points, down more than 1 block, down 1 rebound, down 1 assist and down 13% in FT shooting. He did improve by 4% in FG and 3pt shooting though so those were pluses but overall he regressed this past season.

[Admin]

Marvin was never considered the best player. Marvin was considered the guy who could potentially be the best player down the line. There is a big difference and the perceived gap between him and Paul/Deron was not as big as you are trying to make out. Even before the draft our buddy Ford had marvin ahead of Paul/Deron on his board but said that gap wasn't that big.

GM's get paid to make those decisions. Given that the Hawks had 4 top 6 picks in 4 years and only have two role players to show for it that has to be considered a failure.

I don't consider the best player from a draft to be the best player immediately but if you prefer then fine Marvin was considered to be the player who would be the best from that draft. And I'm not trying to say there was a huge gap between Paul/Deron and Marvin, but there was a gap. Marvin was far and away considered the consensus #2 pick and some mocks had him going #1.

I don't disagree that the Hawks drafts have been a failure, although there are degrees of failure and it could have been worse than it ended up. My only point in this thread is that there is indeed luck to where you end up in the lottery.