Merged: Hawks Finally Making the right moves so Far (hold breath)

[MaceCase]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

VC is better than Turgolu by far. Turgolu has never averaged 20 ppg. Carter does it routinely.

And lets not forget that Ryan Anderson shot 36% from three as a rookie big man.

You also have to take into consideration that Carter scored 20ppg as the man on all the teams he's been on. In Orlando Dwight is the man and their motion offense won't afford Carter as many one on one situations. I in no way think Carter won't get his chances but his presence will disrupt that teams chemistry that they had with Hedo. Add in their lack of depth considering they basically traded out Turkoglu, Lee, Battie, Alston and Gortat you can't possibly say that they got better when three key members from their championship run and two valuable bench bigs were traded for a 33 year old SG known for his softness.

[Admin]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

VC is better than Turgolu by far. Turgolu has never averaged 20 ppg. Carter does it routinely.

And lets not forget that Ryan Anderson shot 36% from three as a rookie big man.

Why is that so funny? Turk was an extremely important piece of their team the past 2 years and he ran many of their plays at the end of quarters, halves, games, etc. I think that you're severely underestimating the impact that his ball handling and help running the offense had. As players yes VC is definitely better but as a part of the Magic I also think it's a lateral move. Anderson is a nice addition which should help make the deal more even but I still see them as having regressed some this offseason thus far.

[AHF]

Bear in mind in terms of efficiency that Vince had a 19 PER last season and has a 21 PER career average.

Hedo had a 15 PER last year and a 15 PER career average. (That is lower than Marvin last year for those counting).

[DjGrizz]

you forgot the eastern champs who just got better with vince carter...

They're better because they lost Lee, Gortat and Turk for Carter???

I'm confused.

[RedDawg#8]

As of right now the Magic still have a hole on their starting roster. Depending on where they play Carter, with the loss of Lee AND Hedo, they wont have a 2/3. This means they will prolly upgrade Pietrus to a starting spot, but that now removes yet another player off their evaporating bench.

PG-Nelson

SG/SF- Pietrus

SG/SF-Carter

PF- Lewis

C-Howard

Bench:

Reddick

Anderson

A. Johnson

Foyle (FA)

Lue (FA)

Je. Richardson (FA)

They still have 3 FA's to sign and one roster spot to fill and they dont have as much cap room. While their starting line-up looks very formidable, they will have absolutely no bench. Assuming Marv comes back and we add another solid big, I would strongly argue that we have a much deeper and better all-around team. If any of their starters get in foul trouble, they are screwed.

[Atlantaholic]

Vince Carter is so much better than Turkoglu it's not even funny... He's especially valuable because he can actually can dominate a game offensively... He's a type of guy that if he is on fire he will drop 30 on you. Turk was never that guy. Turk was a nice glue guy for them, but Vince is a star... He's a better passer, finisher, shooter, and a better rebounder, than Turkoglu and gives them a player that can break down the defense at the end of a game.

Turkoglu is one of the most overrated free agents in quite some time... He had one very good season sandwiched in between 10 years of absolute mediocrity.

Vince Carters worst year was better than Turkoglus best.

Gortat wasn't even a big part of their rotation last year... The dude avg. 12 minutes a game. I think they'll live without him. Courtney Lee STINKS.

[Atlantaholic]

Ryan Anderson is also a very good pickup. The guy was a very good Rebounder and a good three point shooter. His Ts% was higher than Turkoglu's last year

[Atlantaholic]

As of right now the Magic still have a hole on their starting roster. Depending on where they play Carter, with the loss of Lee AND Hedo, they wont have a 2/3. This means they will prolly upgrade Pietrus to a starting spot, but that now removes yet another player off their evaporating bench.

PG-Nelson

SG/SF- Pietrus

SG/SF-Carter

PF- Lewis

C-Howard

Bench:

Reddick

Anderson

A. Johnson

Foyle (FA)

Lue (FA)

Je. Richardson (FA)

They still have 3 FA's to sign and one roster spot to fill and they dont have as much cap room. While their starting line-up looks very formidable, they will have absolutely no bench. Assuming Marv comes back and we add another solid big, I would strongly argue that we have a much deeper and better all-around team. If any of their starters get in foul trouble, they are screwed.

You are dreaming. Deeper, yes. Better??? Howard is way, way better than anyone on our team. Vince Carter, their second best player, has been putting up the same number Joe Johnson (by far and away our BEST player) has put up the last three years. Nelson and Lewis are absolutely better than Horford and Bibby. Pietrus and Marvin are about equal, though we should probably give a slight edge to Marvin... Their starting lineup kills ours, and that is way more important than depth.

[RedDawg#8]

You cant under estimate the value of a good bench (as we have done in the past)

when you dont have a strong bench, it limits your team esp. on defense. you cant play agressive man to man defense when theres no one who can come in behind you if you get in foul trouble. Players like Howard and Pietrus become significantly reduced on the defensive end now.

Offensively, they seem ok, but you are now hoping that their 5 starters have it going night in and night out, which is very unlikely. you are now expecting a 20 pt night from each of their starters. NOT gonna happen. Having depth allows an off night from 2 or 3 starters.

And then theres the risk of injury. Pietrus missed significant time last year, VC and Lewis are both over 30. You are gambling that they hold up for the entire 82 game reg. season AND playoffs.

If everything goes their way, they will have a dominating offensive team. If anything goes wrong, they are royaly screwed

[Atlantaholic]

You cant under estimate the value of a good bench (as we have done in the past)

when you dont have a strong bench, it limits your team esp. on defense. you cant play agressive man to man defense when theres no one who can come in behind you if you get in foul trouble. Players like Howard and Pietrus become significantly reduced on the defensive end now.

Offensively, they seem ok, but you are now hoping that their 5 starters have it going night in and night out, which is very unlikely. you are now expecting a 20 pt night from each of their starters. NOT gonna happen. Having depth allows an off night from 2 or 3 starters.

And then theres the risk of injury. Pietrus missed significant time last year, VC and Lewis are both over 30. You are gambling that they hold up for the entire 82 game reg. season AND playoffs.

If everything goes their way, they will have a dominating offensive team. If anything goes wrong, they are royaly screwed

It's not like their Bench is a bunch of 0's, man. Andersen is a quality bench player, Anthony Johnson held the fort last year for a good chunk of the season while Nelson was gone. They are also not done filling out their team. If they resign Foyle the guy has always been a great rebounder and defender off the bench... Yeah, our bench is still better than theirs, but that's it. Our only advantage over Orlando is a bench.

We haven't even considered that Howard is still learning how to play basketball, and just adding a simple jump hook to his game could see him elevate to Shaquille Oneal in his prime status.

[ngc7]

Vince Carter is so much better than Turkoglu it's not even funny... He's especially valuable because he can actually can dominate a game offensively... He's a type of guy that if he is on fire he will drop 30 on you. Turk was never that guy. Turk was a nice glue guy for them, but Vince is a star... He's a better passer, finisher, shooter, and a better rebounder, than Turkoglu and gives them a player that can break down the defense at the end of a game.

Turkoglu is one of the most overrated free agents in quite some time... He had one very good season sandwiched in between 10 years of absolute mediocrity.

Vince Carters worst year was better than Turkoglus best.

Gortat wasn't even a big part of their rotation last year... The dude avg. 12 minutes a game. I think they'll live without him. Courtney Lee STINKS.

C Lee is the next Richard Hamilton lol

[Atlantaholic]

C Lee is the next Richard Hamilton lol

If we played Acie 26 minutes a game he could have scored 8 points a game too.

[exodus]

You also have to take into consideration that Carter scored 20ppg as the man on all the teams he's been on. In Orlando Dwight is the man and their motion offense won't afford Carter as many one on one situations.

you've got it backwards. With Howard in the middle and with all of their shooters Carter will face far fewer double teams.

I in no way think Carter won't get his chances but his presence will disrupt that teams chemistry that they had with Hedo. Add in their lack of depth considering they basically traded out Turkoglu, Lee, Battie, Alston and Gortat you can't possibly say that they got better when three key members from their championship run and two valuable bench bigs were traded for a 33 year old SG known for his softness.

Chemistry? They lost their starting pg and replaced him with AJ who we know is weak and then Alston. If that didn't hurt their chemistry then i doubt adding a multiple All-Star will hurt it much.

[exodus]

Why is that so funny? Turk was an extremely important piece of their team the past 2 years and he ran many of their plays at the end of quarters, halves, games, etc. I think that you're severely underestimating the impact that his ball handling and help running the offense had. As players yes VC is definitely better but as a part of the Magic I also think it's a lateral move. Anderson is a nice addition which should help make the deal more even but I still see them as having regressed some this offseason thus far.

Turk has only had two seasons in his career when he shot over 42.2% from the field and he has never averaged 20 ppg. Hedo's numbers are dwarfed by Carters.

Carter has averaged 4.3 assists for his career so it isn't like Hedo has proven to be a better playmaker than Vince.

[Atlantaholic]

you've got it backwards. With Howard in the middle and with all of their shooters Carter will face far fewer double teams.

Chemistry? They lost their starting pg and replaced him with AJ who we know is weak and then Alston. If that didn't hurt their chemistry then i doubt adding a multiple All-Star will hurt it much.

Vince Carter has had a higher PER than Joe Johnson each of the last four years... He had 14 30 point games last year. Turk had 2.

Saying he's not an upgrade is crazy. The only way you argue that is if you say that, at 32, Vince will break down.... But that's still not a good point considering that Vince has played 777 to Turkoglus 678... A little more than a season, but not that much of a difference... Players usually don't break down until they get close to the 1000 game mark anyway, so I wouldn't bank on Vince's production dropping too much from last year.

[Atlantaholic]

We haven't even talked about how Vince Carter destroys us everytime we play against him... Definitely doesn't help us out in the head to head having him play for the Magic.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Atlantaholic

[buckeye242424]

Vince Carter has had a higher PER than Joe Johnson each of the last four years... He had 14 30 point games last year. Turk had 2.

Saying he's not an upgrade is crazy. The only way you argue that is if you say that, at 32, Vince will break down.... But that's still not a good point considering that Vince has played 777 to Turkoglus 678... A little more than a season, but not that much of a difference... Players usually don't break down until they get close to the 1000 game mark anyway, so I wouldn't bank on Vince's production dropping too much from last year.

I disagree. Vince will be playing with three all-stars, all wanting their piece of the pie. I highly doubt he will average as many shot attempts or points as he did last year.

[exodus]

I disagree. Vince will be playing with three all-stars, all wanting their piece of the pie. I highly doubt he will average as many shot attempts or points as he did last year.

So Orlando will be starting 4 All-Stars and we are starting 1. The gap between the teams is pretty big.

[buckeye242424]

So Orlando will be starting 4 All-Stars and we are starting 1. The gap between the teams is pretty big.

I thought the gap between our teams was significantly bigger last year. They did make the finals.

But I don't think they have improved. It will be tough to match 57 wins next year, let alone a repeat to the finals.

[MaceCase]

you've got it backwards. With Howard in the middle and with all of their shooters Carter will face far fewer double teams.

Chemistry? They lost their starting pg and replaced him with AJ who we know is weak and then Alston. If that didn't hurt their chemistry then i doubt adding a multiple All-Star will hurt it much.

I don't have it backwards maybe I should word it better. Carter will not have as many Iso opportunities in Orlando's motion offense, his usage rate is bound to drop outside of late in 4th quarters. When Jameer went down Hedo took over the majority of ball handling duties like he is accustomed to thus why AJ and Alston were able to acclimate better. Alston job was only to push the tempo and AJs job was to act like the undersized SG that he is, Hedo was still the orchestrator. Do not underestimate depth, they can't play their starters 48 minutes a night and expect to be effective. Dwight does have a tendency to get into foul trouble and even Zaza can run roughshod over the rest of their bigs.

Above all else I've followed Carter's career even before he came to the NY Metro area. When the pressure is on he tends to fold. He is still a guy coasting on his God given talent rather than pushing his skill and abilities to the next level. He is now joining a team with the expectation to be back at the finals next year and there will be an "adjusment" period for Carter to actually play up to that level and expectation night in and out.