Merged: Hawks Finally Making the right moves so Far (hold breath)

[chico1]

Why can we just keep Childress? is it a money issue? Man would he give our bench some depth if he came back?!

[Admin]

Turk has only had two seasons in his career when he shot over 42.2% from the field and he has never averaged 20 ppg. Hedo's numbers are dwarfed by Carters.

Carter has averaged 4.3 assists for his career so it isn't like Hedo has proven to be a better playmaker than Vince.

Well I'm glad it's only about points per game and fg%. Surely there can't be any other way that Hedo positively effected the team that Carter won't, right?

[Atlantaholic]

Well I'm glad it's only about points per game and fg%. Surely there can't be any other way that Hedo positively effected the team that Carter won't, right?

There is no statistical category where Turkoglu is superior... and if you are talking about intangibles, I can't really say I feel too highly about Turks mentality considering his massive choke job in the finals. Defense?? Turkoglu is not a better defender than Carter, they are both total non factors on Defense.

Carter >>> Turk. Anyway you slice it... Toronto fans will be cursing the day they handed that dude 10 million a year.

Getting Carter for Alston, Lee, and Battie was a great move for Orlando... They could not have improved their team more without giving up less... My prediction is Orlando rises and Boston falls this year. Age will catch up with Boston, it is inevitable. KG and Rasheed have gone over the 1000 game mark and Ray, Ray is not far behind. Paul Pierce is in the high 800 range... Very, very likely that they all see a significant drop in play next year.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Atlantaholic

[Admin]

There is no statistical category where Turkoglu is superior... and if you are talking about intangibles, I can't really say I feel too highly about Turks mentality considering his massive choke job in the finals. Defense?? Turkoglu is not a better defender than Carter, they are both total non factors on Defense.

Carter >>> Turk. Anyway you slice it... Toronto fans will be cursing the day they handed that dude 10 million a year.

Getting Carter for Alston, Lee, and Battie was a great move for Orlando... They could not have improved their team more without giving up less... My prediction is Orlando rises and Boston falls this year. Age will catch up with Boston, it is inevitable. KG and Rasheed have gone over the 1000 game mark and Ray, Ray is not far behind. Paul Pierce is in the high 800 range... Very, very likely that they all see a significant drop in play next year.

Let's just put it this way, unless Orlando makes more moves I absolutely guarantee that they do not win 57 games next year and you can quote me on that.

[exodus]

Let's just put it this way, unless Orlando makes more moves I absolutely guarantee that they do not win 57 games next year and you can quote me on that.

Of course they are going to make more moves. It is only the second day of the free agent signing period and they don't have a full roster. You could say the exact same thing about the Hawks or any other team and have no chance at being wrong.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Right now

Our bench > Magic's bench

Besides Dwight Howard over Al Horford, there is no other matchup in the starting lineup that they flat out win either.

Well maybe if Nelson is healthy over Bibby.

But Josh Smith and Rashard Lewis is a wash and so is Marvin and Pietrus. Same with JJ and VC.

[buckeye242424]

Right now

Our bench > Magic's bench

Besides Dwight Howard over Al Horford, there is no other matchup in the starting lineup that they flat out win either.

Well maybe if Nelson is healthy over Bibby.

But Josh Smith and Rashard Lewis is a wash and so is Marvin and Pietrus. Same with JJ and VC.

That Magic won 10 more games than us last year as well all know, that's a ton. Adding VC will most likely keep them a lock to win our division. It's difficult to compare us personnel wise because the players on each team have different skills on the court. Comparing Dwight Howard to Al Horford, it's not even close. Dwight Howard is the best center in the game. Al Horford, isn't really a center. Josh Smith and Rashard Lewis are two totally different players as well. Saying, other than D.Howard and Horford, it's a wash between our teams is inaccurate. Their starting five, arguably, is the best in basketball. Four all-stars and throw in Pietrus, loaded. They'll fill out their bench 8-9 million trade exception from Hedo...

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Bear in mind in terms of efficiency that Vince had a 19 PER last season and has a 21 PER career average.

Hedo had a 15 PER last year and a 15 PER career average. (That is lower than Marvin last year for those counting).

Yep . . . plus, when you evaulate their jumpshooting, Vince had an NJSI of .789, while Turkoglu had a NJSI of .737 ( lower than Marvin's .754 )

Turk made his money because he has a knack of making big shots at the end of games.

Vince may have a highly efficient season next year, because of Howard's presence in the middle.

[jerrywest]

Yep . . . plus, when you evaulate their jumpshooting, Vince had an NJSI of .789, while Turkoglu had a NJSI of .737 ( lower than Marvin's .754 )

Turk made his money because he has a knack of making big shots at the end of games.

Vince may have a highly efficient season next year, because of Howard's presence in the middle.

I expect Vince to pull a Kobe next year. Finally people will realize how awesome he is.

[MaceCase]

I expect Vince to pull a Kobe next year. Finally people will realize how awesome he is.

We all know how awesome Vince could be but he never had the killer instinct to be Kobe. Basketball is a hobby for him, a job that he happens to be extremely talented at. He's never had the temperament to go hard every game unless it's a contract year and even then he coasts on mostly talent alone. It's going to take alot for me to believe that he's going to all of a sudden increase his drive at the age 33. Ask any Raptor fan how it is that they can completely hate a guy who used to be an icon for them and was the best player ever in their franchise. You can see the clear difference between him and how he's treated and KG by Minny fans even though they both asked to be traded. Atleast KG always played hard for the Timberwolves and they respected him for that.

[f_town]

"QUOTE (jerrywest @ Jul 9 2009, 10:35 PM)

I expect Vince to pull a Kobe next year. Finally people will realize how awesome he is."

I expect people to realize that Vince Carter is more evil than the Emperor from star wars! ... i automatically hate any team he plays for.

He is Pure Evil!™

Go Hawks!

Edited July 10, 2009 by f_town

[bumpyphish1]

You statheads are f***ing dorks. And Atlantaholic, you disappoint me because you usually know what's up.

Turkoglu = WINNER

Vince = LOSER

It's that simple. And the argument Vince makes bigger shots than Hedo is nuts, too. And Hedo makes them in this little tournament thingy called the PLAYOFFS if you weren't watching.

There is a reason the Magic preferred to keep Hedo. Vince is a me-first player who put up points on losing team without having to co-exist with other big-time players. Like say, oh, Dwight Howard, Reshard Lewis and even Nelson. Did I mention Vince has lost a ton of games? You all just remember him because he buried the Hawks this season with that play Smoove should have freakin' prevented.

This is an Iverson to Detroit situation. There is a great chance Vince does more harm than good and even if he doesn't, he won't be as effective as Turkoglu. The #3 seed and the DIVISION is officially up for grabs. Bring on 2009-10!

Edited July 10, 2009 by bumpyphish1

[buckeye242424]

You statheads are f***ing dorks. And Atlantaholic, you disappoint me because you usually know what's up.

Turkoglu = WINNER

Vince = LOSER

It's that simple. And the argument Vince makes bigger shots than Hedo is nuts, too. And Hedo makes them in this little tournament thingy called the PLAYOFFS if you weren't watching.

There is a reason the Magic preferred to keep Hedo. Vince is a me-first player who put up points on losing team without having to co-exist with other big-time players. Like say, oh, Dwight Howard, Reshard Lewis and even Nelson. Did I mention Vince has lost a ton of games? You all just remember him because he buried the Hawks this season with that play Smoove should have freakin' prevented.

This is an Iverson to Detroit situation. There is a great chance Vince does more harm than good and even if he doesn't, he won't be as effective as Turkoglu. The #3 seed and the DIVISION is officially up for grabs. Bring on 2009-10!

He's going to have to prove he can accept a lesser role. Jameer is coming off his first all-star bid, then gets hurt, only to come back in the finals where he was less than spectacular. He'll have something to prove. Rashard and Dwight will want there fair share of touches and shots. I can forsee some chemistry issues unless Carter can accept he's not the "man" anymore.

[thescout5]

You statheads are f***ing dorks. And Atlantaholic, you disappoint me because you usually know what's up.

Turkoglu = WINNER

Vince = LOSER

It's that simple. And the argument Vince makes bigger shots than Hedo is nuts, too. And Hedo makes them in this little tournament thingy called the PLAYOFFS if you weren't watching.

There is a reason the Magic preferred to keep Hedo. Vince is a me-first player who put up points on losing team without having to co-exist with other big-time players. Like say, oh, Dwight Howard, Reshard Lewis and even Nelson. Did I mention Vince has lost a ton of games? You all just remember him because he buried the Hawks this season with that play Smoove should have freakin' prevented.

This is an Iverson to Detroit situation. There is a great chance Vince does more harm than good and even if he doesn't, he won't be as effective as Turkoglu. The #3 seed and the DIVISION is officially up for grabs. Bring on 2009-10!

Hawks really haven't done alot except add Crawford who won't start but will give JJ minutes to rest. They resigned Bibby other than that still haven't addressed their no1 weakness a BIG that can rebound and block some shots. Watching Cleveland penetrate inside during the playoff series made me sick watching it. No one stepped forward to block shots or get rebounds. You can't build your team on outside scoring in the playoffs, teams are just to good .

[bumpyphish1]

Hawks really haven't done alot except add Crawford who won't start but will give JJ minutes to rest. They resigned Bibby other than that still haven't addressed their no1 weakness a BIG that can rebound and block some shots. Watching Cleveland penetrate inside during the playoff series made me sick watching it. No one stepped forward to block shots or get rebounds. You can't build your team on outside scoring in the playoffs, teams are just to good .

I agree. I am moderately excited with what we have done so far but we absolutely MUST get another big man. Chillz to the Clippers for Camby + is definitely intriguing.

[exodus]

You statheads are f***ing dorks. And Atlantaholic, you disappoint me because you usually know what's up.

Turkoglu = WINNER

Vince = LOSER

It's that simple. And the argument Vince makes bigger shots than Hedo is nuts, too.

That "loser" has scorched the Hawks for years and is easily a better clutch player than Hedo. This past season Vince scored more points in the clutch than Hedo and shot 14% better from the field while doing it.

In fact only 6 players in the league scored more points in the clutch than Vince while also shooting a better percentage.

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Edited July 10, 2009 by exodus

[AHF]

I don't like Vince but I think people are underrating him here. He is no Allen Iverson. He can fit a team structure and is incredibly gifted. Where he suffers is his toughness and in settling for jumpers, but that shouldn't be much of a problem on the Orlando team where he will be expected to be one of the scoring options and not be expected to be the team leader. He can play a Pau Gasol type of "featured/secondary" role for this team (vis-a-vis Pau and Kobe's dynamic on the Lakers).

[Traceman]

I don't like Vince but I think people are underrating him here. He is no Allen Iverson. He can fit a team structure and is incredibly gifted. Where he suffers is his toughness and in settling for jumpers, but that shouldn't be much of a problem on the Orlando team where he will be expected to be one of the scoring options and not be expected to be the team leader. He can play a Pau Gasol type of "featured/secondary" role for this team (vis-a-vis Pau and Kobe's dynamic on the Lakers).

Vince is still a very good player and I agree that he is being underrated. As many clutch shots as he has hit against us over the years in both TOR and in NJ, I can't beleive that people say Hedo is more clutch than Vince. As Ex pointed out in the stats, it's simply not close. Vince took more 3's in the clutch than Hedo and he made a FAR higher percentage of them. Vince shot 50% on 3's in the clutch and Hedo shot 20% despite the fact that Vince took more shots. Considering that Lewis shot 43% on 3's in the clutch while taking about the same number of shots as Hedo, ORL could be even more dangerous when things get tight.

If ORL stays healthy, they are going to be tough but I can't see how they will be as deep. They have essentially replaced Hedo/Lee/Gortat with Carter. They have a large $8M trade exception but they have $50M in 3 players and their payroll sits at $68M for 7 players. They are definitely going to be over the luxury tax and I don't see then using that trade exception to sign anyone of significance.

[BusBoyIsBack]

That Magic won 10 more games than us last year as well all know, that's a ton. Adding VC will most likely keep them a lock to win our division. It's difficult to compare us personnel wise because the players on each team have different skills on the court. Comparing Dwight Howard to Al Horford, it's not even close. Dwight Howard is the best center in the game. Al Horford, isn't really a center. Josh Smith and Rashard Lewis are two totally different players as well. Saying, other than D.Howard and Horford, it's a wash between our teams is inaccurate. Their starting five, arguably, is the best in basketball. Four all-stars and throw in Pietrus, loaded. They'll fill out their bench 8-9 million trade exception from Hedo...

We also won 10 more games last year than we won the previous year. And this was with a team that was battling injuries for a great deal of the year.

Josh Smith and Rashard Lewis are two different type of players, but overall their level of effectiveness is about the same.

All Im saying is that Dwight Howard is the only matchup that they are head and shoulders above us. And that can be made up for the fact that we could possibly have a stronger team overall when you consider our bench and the fact that we can neutralize every other matchup. We also have players with more upside. Guys like Lewis, Pietrus, and Nelson are closer to peaking than our guys

Hawks really haven't done alot except add Crawford who won't start but will give JJ minutes to rest. They resigned Bibby other than that still haven't addressed their no1 weakness a BIG that can rebound and block some shots. Watching Cleveland penetrate inside during the playoff series made me sick watching it. No one stepped forward to block shots or get rebounds. You can't build your team on outside scoring in the playoffs, teams are just to good .

We didn't do a lot last year yet we still went from 37-45 to 47-35. Vs Cleveland Josh Smith was in foul trouble and Horford was hurt and so was Marvin. That's basically our entire front court. Of course we aren't going to come close to defending Lebron and company when that's the case. It damaged our offensive productivity as well.

And people are seriously underestimating the addition of Crawford. He could be one of the best sixth men in the league.

Edited July 10, 2009 by BusBoyIsBack

[exodus]

Of course Orlando is going to make more moves. It is only the second day of the free agent signing period and they don't have a full roster.

Looks like Orlando is going to land Bass. Color me shocked....not.