Question to the board.

[Diesel]

We are smaller in all 5 positions without Marvin. Yuck. With Joe+Marvin, we are almost always bigger at 2 & 3. Just restating the obvious.

That doesn't really play as an offensive advantage. You guys talk from a best case scenario. Let's talk about the real world for a second.

In the real world, we were 19th in ppg. We were 12th in FG%. We're not a very good offensive team. We're efficient but not productive.

According to 82games.com,

Our 5 man units that feature Joe at the 3 and Flip at the 2 trumped those that featured Joe at the 2 and Marvin at the 3. This is the real world of what happened. Even when Marvin went out, we went on a winning streak. To me that said, we didn't miss his contribution. IN fact, it gave Flip more time to play.

However, we like to get on this forum and said... "Well with marvin we have a height advantage." Well, that height advantage MEANS NOTHING if we are not effective and productive. Flips attacking of the rim makes us productive. Even 82 games say that we're better offensively with Marvin off the court. And Flip on the court.

[Diesel]

Ridiculous.

If Marvin was UFA, all 30 teams would have tried to sign him for MLE or more. Do you hear any buzz on Flip?

It's funny. If Marvin had that kinda buzz, then you'd think that any team seeing our ownership debacle and seeing our cap status would just try us. However, nobody's talking about Marvin.

I was listening to sports radio this morning (ESPN), and they were talking about the top RFAs left. Marvin's name did not come up. At first I was mad about it, but then they mentioned CHillz and I understood.

[MaceCase]

D are you bringing up the Jamal was snubbed for the allstar game argument even though he was sixth in fan voting when the fans are only allowed to vote 2 guards and it wasn't even close in terms of total fan votes *deep breath* hmmm?

Because if so.... that's not a snub, Yi Jianlian is a snub, Crawford not even close. If he was so valued in the league the coaches and GMs (you know the guys with half a brain in basketball) would have selected Crawford rather than leaving it to the popularity contest voters.

Oh and D when you are using stats you might want to look into usage rates and total minutes played with those 5 man units.

[AnakinJoe]

Intangibles.

Marvin used to go to the line a lot. NO longer. Two things have happened. Marvin stopped driving and Refs stopped giving Marvin calls. The Whole league now knows that Marvin is clumsy and he clumsily falls towards the rim when he drives. I've seen Marvin picking himself up off the floor (with no call) last year more times than he has in the previous three years.

When you talk about Crawford, Crawford drives. Crawford averaged 5.1 FTA per 36 to Marvin's 4.7 & Flip 4.2 per 36.

Marvin's FTAs increased in his last healthy month, February. There's no evidence that refs stopped calling fouls against him because they think that he is clumsy. If anything, he was learning how to transfer his 3-point shot into drives into the lane.

The hardest thing to do is to accurately project what a guy who got a lot of shot attempts on losing teams will do when they are moved to a winning squad. I'd be very careful about setting high expectations for Crawford. I think he will emerge as a smaller version of Al Harrington... a one-dimensional player who will ultimately have a very forgettable tenure with the Hawks. He'll undoubtedly will have some really nice games for us (remember when Harrington and Joe had like 20 in the 1st half against the Knicks?) but he won't truly impact the team's success/failure (other than costing us valuable cap space).

[Crank]

Crawford is a journeyman because he has an itinerant career being traded back and forth between bottom feeding teams prior to the Hawks obtaining him for spare parts. Shaq, on the other hand, until most recently, was a centerpiece - he has won 4 titles if you did not notice. Crawford is a hired gun on cellar dwellers. With the Hawks, he will be asked to play the "Flip" role by providing some offensive spark off the bench. He is not a starter on a good team.

Crawford is acknowledged as a poor defender. Bibby is a poor defender. Which team in the NBA could put together a starting backcourt with two worse defnders?

Crawford was on the Bulls for 4 years and was SIGNED AND TRADED as a restricted free agent to the knicks (the knicks were a playoff team the year before)

he then played the next 4 years in NY

he then played most of the last year with GS and we just got him in a trade

So he spent 9 of his first 10 training camps with two teams and we will be the 3rd team he has gone to training camp with in a 10 year career and somehow hes considered a journeyman ?

You said Crawford and Flip are journeyman for a reason but I dont see how anyone can say Crawfords and Flips careers have been similar in anyway .

A journeyman has nothing to do with nba titles . A journeyman at least imo is someone who ends up going to team to team on short term contracts and are fringe rotation players.

Crawford is acknowledged to be a poor defender and yet when I look at the numbers he comes out to be average . Bibby as well...just average but he looks worse because his offense is no longer dominant enough to allow him to keep pace with his opponents as he did when he was younger.

[Traceman]

That doesn't really play as an offensive advantage. You guys talk from a best case scenario. Let's talk about the real world for a second.

In the real world, we were 19th in ppg. We were 12th in FG%. We're not a very good offensive team. We're efficient but not productive.

According to 82games.com,

Our 5 man units that feature Joe at the 3 and Flip at the 2 trumped those that featured Joe at the 2 and Marvin at the 3. This is the real world of what happened. Even when Marvin went out, we went on a winning streak. To me that said, we didn't miss his contribution. IN fact, it gave Flip more time to play.

However, we like to get on this forum and said... "Well with marvin we have a height advantage." Well, that height advantage MEANS NOTHING if we are not effective and productive. Flips attacking of the rim makes us productive. Even 82 games say that we're better offensively with Marvin off the court. And Flip on the court.

You can make stats say anything you want. For instance, if you look at our top 3 5-man units with regard to win %, JJ, Marvin and Al were the only 3 players on all 3 units.

The lineup of Al, Smoove, Marvin, JJ and Flip had the highest win % at 77.7%. I'm surprised that group didn't play together more.

The next highest win % for a 5-man unit was Horford, Marvin, JJ, Flip and Bibby at 69.2%. Makes me think that Horford, Marvin, JJ, Crawford and Bibby could be interesting at times next season. Try guarding the 3 pt line on that lineup!

The third highest win % for a 5-man unit was Zaza, Horford, Marvin, JJ and Bibby at 68.1%.

[Crank]

You can make stats say anything you want. For instance, if you look at our top 3 5-man units with regard to win %, JJ, Marvin and Al were the only 3 players on all 3 units.

The lineup of Al, Smoove, Marvin, JJ and Flip had the highest win % at 77.7%. I'm surprised that group didn't play together more.

The next highest win % for a 5-man unit was Horford, Marvin, JJ, Flip and Bibby at 69.2%. Makes me think that Horford, Marvin, JJ, Crawford and Bibby could be interesting at times next season. Try guarding the 3 pt line on that lineup!

The third highest win % for a 5-man unit was Zaza, Horford, Marvin, JJ and Bibby at 68.1%.

I fully believe the 3 guard lineup will work but we cant start that unit. I think Crawford gives us a advantage at point guard in certain situations so while I want to see the 3 guard lineup at the end of the game and in the second quarter against certain teams I think we need to keep those opposing coaches juggling those lineup to see how they can matchup with a Joe and Crawford backcourt at various times of the game .

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Joe at Small Forward is not smart unless we're playing against another team that's playing small ball as well.

And the reason is because we are already undersized with Josh Smith and Al Horford at the 4-5. With the average to above average size combo at the SG and SF position of Joe and Marvin it helps make up for that.

If you play Joe at the SF and a smaller SG on top of that, these problems would be even more pronounced and we would be one of the worst teams in the league on the boards and it would take away post up advantages

And that's exactly what happened during the playoffs, when Marvin wasn't able to go at 100%.

Excellent post.

[Traceman]

I fully believe the 3 guard lineup will work but we cant start that unit. I think Crawford gives us a advantage at point guard in certain situations so while I want to see the 3 guard lineup at the end of the game and in the second quarter against certain teams I think we need to keep those opposing coaches juggling those lineup to see how they can matchup with a Joe and Crawford backcourt at various times of the game .

I agree. I definitely want to see Bbiby, Crawford and JJ on the floor together (and I think we will), I just don't want to START them.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I will give you the truth because you will probably get a lot of people crying about you asking the question..

But the truth is that Joe is MILES better than Marvin at the three.

Defensively.

Joe has the ability to play better defense than Marvin at the 3. When we played Cleveland in the playoffs, you could tell that Lebron was guarded when Joe was on him.

I think that Joe has an advantage guarding Sfs because he doesn't have to chase them around like he chases 2s. At 6'7 240, Joe is strong enough to handle anybody. Rarely do you see anybody post Joe up, Rarely do you see anybody shoot over Joe.

Correct.

But that also meant that whomever was playing the 2 or the 3, was having a field day. The presence of Marvin at least makes the SF he's going up against work for his points. Mo Evans was pretty much a defensive liability in the playoffs. So it was up to JJ to not only work on offense, he had to work on defense by guarding Lebron or Wade.

Instead of a size advantage, JJ may frequently go up against guys his size or bigger, if he's moved to the 3 full time. Which means you leave a poor defender like Crawford at the 2, prime to be toasted.

Offensively.

Joe's offense doesn't miss a step at Sf. He plays the same way weather he's at the 2 or 3. That being the case, the real question is IS Marvin better than Crawford at the 2?

I don't think so. Crawford has been mentioned in Allstar circles as a starter at the 2. I've never heard anybody saying Marvin got snubbed.

Yes it does. Because it makes him a face-up shooter and driver, instead of a face-up shooter, driver, and post-guy. So if a team like cleveland decided to put Lebron on JJ, it takes away JJ's post up ability and ability to back a smaller guy down.

Now put JJ back at the 2 with Marvin at the 3. Lebron goes to guard JJ, while JJ's man ( West ) goes to guard Marvin. Now the mismatch is in Marvin's favor. Marvin could take West off the dribble and possibly draw a foul, or post West up. Even if a shot is taken by another guy, Marvin has a rebound advantage over West.

Intangibles.

Marvin used to go to the line a lot. NO longer. Two things have happened. Marvin stopped driving and Refs stopped giving Marvin calls. The Whole league now knows that Marvin is clumsy and he clumsily falls towards the rim when he drives. I've seen Marvin picking himself up off the floor (with no call) last year more times than he has in the previous three years.

When you talk about Crawford, Crawford drives. Crawford averaged 5.1 FTA per 36 to Marvin's 4.7 & Flip 4.2 per 36.

What happened, is that Marvin took 150+ three pointers last year. Marvin is clumsy going to the hole, but he still got calls when he drove to the basket. Another thing with Marvin, is that for the first time in his career, he made over 60% of his close range shots.

As for the "Creawford drives" comment, that statement is proof positive that you haven't watched JC play much . . if at all. That guy drives the b-ball about as much as Bibby or Ben Gordon. JC LOVES HIS JUMPSHOT.

14% of JCs shots were inside shots. Far less than Flip's 30% and Marvin's 37%. So how did JC shoot more FTs per 36 minutes?

1) he handled the ball A LOT . . and shot the ball a lot too.

2) JC is actually very good on drawing contact on his jumpshot . . like Wade does.

3) Did I mention that he shoots a lot?

In fact JC only drew a foul on 10% of his shots. I believe both Marvin and Flip were above that percentage.

And that's the problrm with the Crawford backers. Most of you have never sat down and watched this dude play an actual game. You're formulating opinions on him based on stats ONLY . . . instead of using stats AND WHAT YOU SEE LIVE, to back up your opinion.

@ swatguy . . . .Crawford was brought here for possibly 3 reasons:

1) to serve as a guy who can replace Flip's role off the bench, and use him to give JJ more rest.

2) to remove dead contracts ( Speedy and Law ) and replace them with a gu who could help us . . . at virtually the same price.

3) to serve as a "poor man's JJ" at least for the 2010 - 11 season, because the ASG may have no intentions of giving JJ a superstar-like contract.

What I don't believe . . is that the move was made to keep from re-signing Marvin. In fact, if (3) is true, then Marvin will be needed more than ever, to help try to replace the offense we'd lose with JJ.

If we bring back Marvin, JC may be easy to trade going into the 2010 season, because he'd be going into the last year of his deal.

Keep Marvin at the 3, JJ at the 2, and use Jamal as the 6th man. This isn't real complicated.

[Diesel]

D are you bringing up the Jamal was snubbed for the allstar game argument even though he was sixth in fan voting when the fans are only allowed to vote 2 guards and it wasn't even close in terms of total fan votes *deep breath* hmmm?

While you're taking your deep breath Crawsome... Just wondering. Where was Marvin in the allstar voting for Sfs?

That made you laugh didn't it?

You know why?

Just like everybody else... Pro or con Marvin.. YOU cannot see Marvin as an allstar last year or any year.

You know why?

Marvin is just not that good.

Now.. 6th in Gaurd voting.

Let's think about the West.

Kobe, Tmac, BDiddy, JKidd, Deron, Paul, BRoy, Nash, have I gotten to six yet?? Oh, Let me continue!!! Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Jason Terry, Chauncey Billups, OJ Mayo, Barbosa,

Now, I'm wondering.. What are you taking a deep breath for? Crawford is in the presence of these guys and fans picked him 6th!?! And we got this guy for Speedy and Acie? You need to write Crawford an apology for not understanding his value.

[Diesel]

You can make stats say anything you want. For instance, if you look at our top 3 5-man units with regard to win %, JJ, Marvin and Al were the only 3 players on all 3 units.

The lineup of Al, Smoove, Marvin, JJ and Flip had the highest win % at 77.7%. I'm surprised that group didn't play together more.

The next highest win % for a 5-man unit was Horford, Marvin, JJ, Flip and Bibby at 69.2%. Makes me think that Horford, Marvin, JJ, Crawford and Bibby could be interesting at times next season. Try guarding the 3 pt line on that lineup!

The third highest win % for a 5-man unit was Zaza, Horford, Marvin, JJ and Bibby at 68.1%.

When you want to justify Marvin.. It's stat, stat, stat,... However, when Stats stack up against Marvin it's "Oh, you can make stats say anything.

:no-no:

In this case, the win% is useless.. Who is to say who Woody will play down the stretch in a blowout win or loss. That doesn't matter... that's just a recognition of Woody's subbing pattern.

However, more important are the off, def, and +/-. Those tell what those units did on the floor while they played. In which case, the Flip/JJ squads trumped the JJ/Marv squads in every case.

[Diesel]

And that's exactly what happened during the playoffs, when Marvin wasn't able to go at 100%.

Excellent post.

Playing Joe at SF has nothing to do with JSmoove and Horf.

Our problem in the playoffs was not Marvin wasn't able to go 100%. Marvin was out there and sucked and somebody started the excuse machine. Our problem in the playoffs were Horf got injured in the Miami series and with Just Zaza out there, we were not able to compete against Cleveland's big. The truth is that Joe is a better defender than Marvin. So how does puttting a better defender on the floor at the 3 effect Horf and JSmoove? It doesn't. It's another one of those weak excuses to keep Marvin.

[Diesel]

Correct.

But that also meant that whomever was playing the 2 or the 3, was having a field day. The presence of Marvin at least makes the SF he's going up against work for his points. Mo Evans was pretty much a defensive liability in the playoffs. So it was up to JJ to not only work on offense, he had to work on defense by guarding Lebron or Wade.

Here's the problem. It's not about the 2 position. It's about the 1 position. We got the doors blown off of us by Mo Williams and West. That's because Bibby Can not guard them. This happens regardless of what position Joe is playing. We could have had Ron Artest at the 2 and this still would have happened. We could have had Ron Artest at the 2, Scottie Pippen at the 3, Bill Russell at the 4, and Deke at the 5 and if Bibby is playing Point... This still happens!!!

Instead of a size advantage, JJ may frequently go up against guys his size or bigger, if he's moved to the 3 full time. Which means you leave a poor defender like Crawford at the 2, prime to be toasted.

First of all, we play by matchup. Remember, Joe guarded Wade when it counted and Joe guarded Lebron when it counted. That's a 2 and a 3. If we're playing a team that dangerous at both the 2 and the 3, Woody will have to draw up a Zone anyway.

Yes it does. Because it makes him a face-up shooter and driver, instead of a face-up shooter, driver, and post-guy. So if a team like cleveland decided to put Lebron on JJ, it takes away JJ's post up ability and ability to back a smaller guy down.

I like this answer because it proves my point. We say that Joe at the 2 can back a smaller guy down... OK, when was the last time that happened? Did Joe back anybody down this year? Not that I recall. Find me some youtube video of Joe backing down a smaller guard!! That's my dare for the day. I think we say Joe should be able to back a smaller guard down.. but he doesn't. The most that Joe will do is crab dribble, come down the lane and shoot the rain drop. If Joe backed down Smaller guards, he'd be a the FT line more. That what you speak of is not a part of Joe's game.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Correction on % of inside shots taken:

- Crawford: 14%

- Flip: 27%

- Marvin: 34%

% of drawn fouls on shots:

- Crawford: 10.4%

- Flip: 10.9%

- Marvin: 15"4%

[Diesel]

This says it all.

[Diesel]

Correction on % of inside shots taken:

- Crawford: 14%

- Flip: 27%

- Marvin: 34%

% of drawn fouls on shots:

- Crawford: 10.4%

- Flip: 10.9%

- Marvin: 15"4%

Yeah, but you missed one thing.

There's a very telling stat that's right there that is called:

%assisted.

This is a measure of if the player can do that on their own... i.e. can they create their own shot.

Marvin = 57%.

Flip =35%

Craw = 31%

There's another measure. % Blocked:

Marvin = 14%.

Flip = 9%

Craw = 8%.

SO it turns out that Marvin cannot create for himself... and when he does get the ball passed to him in these positions, 14% of the time, his shot is blocked.

BTW... FTA/48.

Marvin 6.3

Flip 5.7

Craw 6.9

So you mean to tell me that Marvin is inside as much as you say and Craw is not inside that much and Craw gets to the line more than both Marvin and Flip? Craw must have a hand magnet in his pants!!!

[MaceCase]

While you're taking your deep breath Crawsome... Just wondering. Where was Marvin in the allstar voting for Sfs?

That made you laugh didn't it?

You know why?

Just like everybody else... Pro or con Marvin.. YOU cannot see Marvin as an allstar last year or any year.

You know why?

Marvin is just not that good.

Now.. 6th in Gaurd voting.

Let's think about the West.

Kobe, Tmac, BDiddy, JKidd, Deron, Paul, BRoy, Nash, have I gotten to six yet?? Oh, Let me continue!!! Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Jason Terry, Chauncey Billups, OJ Mayo, Barbosa,

Now, I'm wondering.. What are you taking a deep breath for? Crawford is in the presence of these guys and fans picked him 6th!?! And we got this guy for Speedy and Acie? You need to write Crawford an apology for not understanding his value.

Tisk tisk tisk D, have you ever seen an allstar ballot? Do you understand how they operate? A 5 year old can get on their computer and vote in who they think is cutest or they can just see 19ppg and say ooo he's an allstar. Now the beauty of the fan vote is that you hope that the amount of basketball fans outweighs the number of total dumb asses that vote for it. Of course this isn't perfect considering how you can still see Iverson or Tmac still lead in votes despite doing nada. But again if we are going to use your logic then Yi Jianlian was snubbed. He was 5th in fan voting and that beats your 6th. So Crawford needs to get in line because if he is so deserving of an allstar bid based off fan voting then Yi definetly deserves an honorable mention waaaaay before he does.

If you want to keep using fan votes then Joe is a worse calibre player than Crawford and I see now that we are definetly letting Joe go in 2010 because we got Crawford now to hold it down and bring us some rings.

Oh yea, *sarcasm*

[MaceCase]

edit: correction Crawford was 7th in western guard voting with 665,038 votes finishing 1,469,760 votes behind 2nd highest voted guard Chris Paul.

Yi Jianlian was 3rd in eastern forward voting with 1,813,829 votes finishing 253,004 votes behind second highest voted forward Kevin Garnett.

Joe Johnson was 10th in eastern guard voting with 420,210 votes finishing 619,692 votes behind 5th place voted east guard Luke Ridnour

Oh yea Diesel, go ahead and put your eggs in that allstar snub basket. :hush:

http://www.nba.com/2009/allstar2009/01/22/...0122/index.html

[Peoriabird]

edit: correction Crawford was 7th in western guard voting with 665,038 votes finishing 1,469,760 votes behind 2nd highest voted guard Chris Paul.

Yi Jianlian was 3rd in eastern forward voting with 1,813,829 votes finishing 253,004 votes behind second highest voted forward Kevin Garnett.

Joe Johnson was 10th in eastern guard voting with 420,210 votes finishing 619,692 votes behind 5th place voted east guard Luke Ridnour

Oh yea Diesel, go ahead and put your eggs in that allstar snub basket. :hush:

http://www.nba.com/2009/allstar2009/01/22/...0122/index.html

I cannot believe that you guys continue to respond to that idiot Diesel!