Marvin has done nothing to earn 8 Million per.

[Diesel]

Diesel Math at its finest.

Marvin got to the line 4.47 times per game.

Flip got there 2.9 times per game.

Bibby got there 2.19 times per game.

How exactly did Flip and Bibby get to the line more than Marvin?

JJ got to the line 4.58 times per game beating Marvin by only .11 per game in spite of dominating the ball and playing more minutes.

As usual Diesel's world bears no resemblence to reality.

If you didn't notice, I was using per 36 mpg stats... because mpg matters. That takes care of Flip. I just miswrote when I put in Bibby.

[HawksBalla]

Here's the problem Balla.

IN 2010, the cap is supposed to go down by 7 million or so.

We're content to give Marvin a long term deal and watch him eat up cap money. If we really think that Joe is leaving, then we should want to have enough money to go after a replacement. LIKE BOSH or whoever else might be available. Bringing back Marv and overpaying him FOR THE LONGTERM is a bad move that will handcuff this team to mediocrity.

Do you really believe that Marvin will step up if Joe is gone. 77% of Marvin's jumpers are assisted. 78% of his dunks are assisted. Marvin is not the step up type.

Those %'s dont surprise me. But in this scenario, they also support my argument that Marvin's offensive output can improve by "increasing the plays called for him". Its almost like the Hawks indirectly control how much they get out of Marvin by how much they give the ball to Marvin. Is it the ideal scenario? No, but then again I can think of several players that needed to be fed the ball.

[exodus]

If you didn't notice, I was using per 36 mpg stats... because mpg matters. That takes care of Flip. I just miswrote when I put in Bibby.

And using your per 36 stats Marvin still got to the line more than Flip. No matter how you look at it Marvin got to the line more than Murray.

On a per game basis JJ got to the line only .11 more than Marvin in spite of playing 5 more minutes and dominating the ball. On a per minute basis Marvin got to the line more than JJ.

What happened to this REAL WORLD you were talking about?

Smith, Bibby, Murry, and Joe get to the line more than Marvin... IN THE REAL WORLD

Your real world doesn't seem to resembe the world the rest of us live in.

[Final_quest]

This whole situation reminds me of a Jon Koncak type scenario. You don't want to give up what you have, but at what price. I don't think it will be as bad as Koncak unless it turns into a Alan Henderson or Speedy injury situation, but I would be surprised if Marvin ever gets a contract this big again. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

[mrhonline]

This whole situation reminds me of a Jon Koncak type scenario. You don't want to give up what you have, but at what price. I don't think it will be as bad as Koncak unless it turns into a Alan Henderson or Speedy injury situation, but I would be surprised if Marvin ever gets a contract this big again. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

Jon Koncak? Seriously? Talk about hyperbole.

The guy was a foul magnet that had his best season as rookie.

[Final_quest]

Jon Koncak? Seriously? Talk about hyperbole.

The guy was a foul magnet that had his best season as rookie.

Don't misunderstand. I'm just saying it's a similar principle. You are so afraid to lose a player that you are willing to overpay to keep them, and in the end you regret it. Marvin might not be like that, but I fear he will be.

[Buzzard]

Diesel Math at its finest.

Marvin got to the line 4.47 times per game.

Flip got there 2.9 times per game.

Bibby got there 2.19 times per game.

How exactly did Flip and Bibby get to the line more than Marvin?

JJ got to the line 4.58 times per game beating Marvin by only .11 per game in spite of dominating the ball and playing more minutes.

As usual Diesel's world bears no resemblence to reality.

You cannot argue logic and math with Diesel. He will only use what fits his position and totally ignore your post if it does not. Marvin was hands down our best outside threat last season at any position other than guard. It is easy to get an assist with Marvin, hit him when he is open and let him shoot. He is also our 2nd best ft shooter in attempts per game and ft% from any of our starters. But shooting and making jumpers, getting to the line and making ft's is only important in Diesels world if it is someone he wants us to keep.

You guys buy into his BS everytime. Arguing logic with Diesel is like arguing with a woman......lesson learned, post a logical argument once and then let it be lmao....

[Peoriabird]

This whole situation reminds me of a Jon Koncak type scenario. You don't want to give up what you have, but at what price. I don't think it will be as bad as Koncak unless it turns into a Alan Henderson or Speedy injury situation, but I would be surprised if Marvin ever gets a contract this big again. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

Obviously some poster don't know what they are looking at when watching the Hawks play or any basketball team for that matter. It is not worth having a discussion with a guy that thinks that this scenario is similar to Jon Koncak contract situation. I just have to face the reality that Atlanta sports fans in general are just not that knowledgeable

[Final_quest]

Thats very true, if we had money to spend as a team we wouldn't use it to get Marvin from Charlotte. If anyone says they would then they are delirious, its just not smart.

But just because that is true doesn't mean we shouldn't resign Marvin. I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if D is saying we shouldn't sign him, but since Marvin is in our possession/control we should look towards resigning him at $8 million because it is a way to keep your assets. You risk losing him for nothing and that is more detrimental than overpaying him.

Not sure. If this was a 2-3 year deal I might agree, but 5 years is a long time to handcuff yourself to overpaying someone like Marvin. I say we should play hard ball and sign him to the QO if he doesn't accept a lower offer.

[Buzzard]

Thats very true, if we had money to spend as a team we wouldn't use it to get Marvin from Charlotte. If anyone says they would then they are delirious, its just not smart.

But just because that is true doesn't mean we shouldn't resign Marvin. I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if D is saying we shouldn't sign him, but since Marvin is in our possession/control we should look towards resigning him at $8 million because it is a way to keep your assets. You risk losing him for nothing and that is more detrimental than overpaying him.

For me that would depend on the circumstances. No 1 being is there a need for a young SF just coming into his own. #2 being is 8 mill all we have to spend. I would rather have Odum for a shorter term at 10 mill but 8 mill longterm for Marvin is not a bad deal if we need a SF. Your other point is 100% correct. Losing Marvin w/o compensation sets us back a full draft and would put us borderline lottery again.

Now I can't wait to hear all the fantasy league dbl sign and trades about to come up involving Marvin and a fringe player for Odum or Boozer....

Edited July 16, 2009 by Buzzard

[Final_quest]

Obviously some poster don't know what they are looking at when watching the Hawks play or any basketball team for that matter. It is not worth having a discussion with a guy that thinks that this scenario is similar to Jon Koncak contract situation. I just have to face the reality that Atlanta sports fans in general are just not that knowledgeable

I said it would not be as bad as Koncak, but in principle the same idea. Koncak is a nightmare example of overpaying to keep the talent you have. It happens all the time to varying degrees. It's not far fetched to say that Marvin at $8 million per is overpaying. That is the range the Lakers were talking to Odom about initially. If you pay Marvin that much you are unable to pay anyone else. The main point is we can't continue to pay mediocre players above what they are worth and expect to get to championship level. If we resign our starting five from last year to long term deals what is our future? We are handcuffed to these guys without making a trade.

[ShooterMcGavin]

The correct comes with the half quote you posted.

Clarify, McFly.

[Joker]

Jon Koncak? Marvin haters are too much.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Has Marvin earned 8 million? No. Close, but no.

Is he worth 8 million to us? Definitely.

I haven't read this entire thread, so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet. But Marvin is worth 8 million, especially to us, because he's a 6-9 forward that can play both the 3 and the 4 effectively for us. We still don't have a 4th big man on this team that we can trust on a nightly basis, so Marvin has to fill that role.

The interesting thing about Marvin, is that he seems to play better offensively when Smoove isn't on the floor with him. He also has a higher PER when playing PF, than he does when he plays SF, showing just how he can effectively play both positions.

If we lose Marvin, we lose a consistent outside shooter, rebounder, and perimeter defender, all in one swoop. So he might be worth 6 million as a SF alone. But because he can also play the 4, that's worth 1.5 - 2 million more in itself.

If Marvin can improve on his 3 point shooting, which I think he can, we now have a very dangerous player who can make people pay dearly for doubling JJ. As Diesel said at the beginning of last year, he'd be our 3 point specialist.

Marvin doesn't do anything extroordinary. He's just consistent as hell across the board.

And when you're as consistent as Marvin in multiple areas, you can justify getting an 8 million contract for 5 years. More than likely, he'll live up to that contract, than to play well above or well below it.

[Diesel]

Thats very true, if we had money to spend as a team we wouldn't use it to get Marvin from Charlotte. If anyone says they would then they are delirious, its just not smart.

But just because that is true doesn't mean we shouldn't resign Marvin. I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if D is saying we shouldn't sign him, but since Marvin is in our possession/control we should look towards resigning him at $8 million because it is a way to keep your assets. You risk losing him for nothing and that is more detrimental than overpaying him.

I'm glad to see that there's another honest person on the board. The litmus test is what it is. I don't think even Marvin's most diehard supporter can honestly say that they would give Marvin 40 Million if he were somebody else's free agent and we had 8 million to spend. However, I agree that we just can't lose Marvin for nothing. My thing is that Marvin should only get a 1 year deal. The cap will drop next year. I don't want to be holding on to Marvin at 8 per when we can definitely go after somebody else. It even makes our SNT possibility better. But if we sign him for the 5 years, I think we will regret it.

[Diesel]

Has Marvin earned 8 million? No. Close, but no.

Is he worth 8 million to us? Definitely.

I haven't read this entire thread, so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet. But Marvin is worth 8 million, especially to us, because he's a 6-9 forward that can play both the 3 and the 4 effectively for us. We still don't have a 4th big man on this team that we can trust on a nightly basis, so Marvin has to fill that role.

The interesting thing about Marvin, is that he seems to play better offensively when Smoove isn't on the floor with him. He also has a higher PER when playing PF, than he does when he plays SF, showing just how he can effectively play both positions.

If we lose Marvin, we lose a consistent outside shooter, rebounder, and perimeter defender, all in one swoop. So he might be worth 6 million as a SF alone. But because he can also play the 4, that's worth 1.5 - 2 million more in itself.

If Marvin can improve on his 3 point shooting, which I think he can, we now have a very dangerous player who can make people pay dearly for doubling JJ. As Diesel said at the beginning of last year, he'd be our 3 point specialist.

Marvin doesn't do anything extroordinary. He's just consistent as hell across the board.

And when you're as consistent as Marvin in multiple areas, you can justify getting an 8 million contract for 5 years. More than likely, he'll live up to that contract, than to play well above or well below it.

A funny thing happened during the middle of the season... Definitely after that post that you all refer to. Marvin had a slump. Then Marvin got hurt and Flip got more playing time. It turned out that Flip with our team made us better than Marvin with our team. It's rare that you lose a player and you get better but that is the very thing that happened with Marvin. We lost him to injury, but overall, we became a better team. You could see it from our records. You can go to 82 games and look up our best 5 man squads. You will notice that when we have Flip substituted for Marvin, we are better in every way.

So now the question becomes how much is Marvin worth to us?

He's definitely not 8 million for the reasons you say because without him, we had better results. Still, I would not just drop him for nothing. I think it's a better move to just sign him to the QO and see how the next year goes.

[Diesel]

Clarify, McFly.

What did you quote?

Did you quote the whole thought or did you quote half of what I said and tried to make some form of Joke from a half quote?

You're being so Busch league. Where did you come from the ESPN boards? R U trying to make a name for yourself by using half quotes? IF that's the case, you need to go back to the kiddie pool and learn how to argue a point correctly. Nobody here has time to hold your hand while you figure out that there's a right way and a wrong way to quote somebody. You just don't stop midthought.

[NineOhTheRino]

Frankly I don't care about his numbers. All I know is that he's not an important piece to this team.

Four reasons:

• Marvin has never been an impact player
  
• He disappears when his team needs him most (esp. after halftime)
  
• He's a follower
  
• Winning is not his #1 priority
  

He's an OK player but not worth $8 mil per.

[Admin]

I'm glad to see that there's another honest person on the board. The litmus test is what it is. I don't think even Marvin's most diehard supporter can honestly say that they would give Marvin 40 Million if he were somebody else's free agent and we had 8 million to spend. However, I agree that we just can't lose Marvin for nothing. My thing is that Marvin should only get a 1 year deal. The cap will drop next year. I don't want to be holding on to Marvin at 8 per when we can definitely go after somebody else. It even makes our SNT possibility better. But if we sign him for the 5 years, I think we will regret it.

Okay let's say for arguments sake that we sign Marvin to the 1 year QO, he plays it out, and we decide to sign him next year. Do you think that we're all of the sudden going to magically be able to use that 8 million to bring in another FA? Sorry it doesn't work that way. Do you know why the good teams are always able to make trades for quality players? Because they have contracts that they can trade to bring in other players and they are always above the cap. If we let Marvin go then we're still up against the cap but now we have no money to bring in another player. That would be absolutely foolish.

[Admin]

Frankly I don't care about his numbers. All I know is that he's not an important piece to this team.

Four reasons:

• Marvin has never been an impact player - Did I miss where the Hawks asked him to be more than the 4th option?
  
• He disappears when his team needs him most (esp. after halftime) - go back and look at the games when he hit HUGE 4th quarter shots
  
• He's a follower - your own personal assumption
• Winning is not his #1 priority - your own personal assumption

He's an OK player but not worth $8 mil per.