Woody's viewpoint going into last season.

[Diesel]

There's a lot of bad memories here on Hawksquawk... and a lot of people willing to blame everybody but Marvin for Marvin's development.

i just wanted to share what Woody said in an interview with Sekou last offseason:

Q: Guys who had sporadic roles or production during the regular season seemed to come to life in the playoff for you. Zaza Pachulia and Marvin Williams both played crucial roles in the playoffs, as did rookie point guard Acie Law IV, albeit in limited action. How do you build on what they did in the postseason going forward?

A. All those guys, along with everybody, your game has to go to another level. Everybody across the board has to take their game to the next level. This is a very pivotal summer for Acie Law as far as getting him back going, and that starts really in summer league. Zaza coming back with a better mental frame of mind to accept his role and play is just as crucial. And Marvin building on his last two years and maybe taking that next big leap in terms of getting where Joe [Johnson] and Josh Smith and Bibby are in terms of being a consistent scorer has to take place. Marvin has to step into that role where he can be that third guy or even that second guy some nights that we rely on night in and night out.

So, why is it that some of you think that Woody is trying to sabatoge Marvin or limit Marvin offensively when going into last season, Woody said that it Marvin being a 2nd or third option had to take place?

[thefloydian]

There's a lot of bad memories here on Hawksquawk... and a lot of people willing to blame everybody but Marvin for Marvin's development.

i just wanted to share what Woody said in an interview with Sekou last offseason:

So, why is it that some of you think that Woody is trying to sabatoge Marvin or limit Marvin offensively when going into last season, Woody said that it Marvin being a 2nd or third option had to take place?

Who are you talking to? Is there some invisible poster who's arguing with you about this sabotage?

[buckeye242424]

There's a lot of bad memories here on Hawksquawk... and a lot of people willing to blame everybody but Marvin for Marvin's development.

i just wanted to share what Woody said in an interview with Sekou last offseason:

So, why is it that some of you think that Woody is trying to sabatoge Marvin or limit Marvin offensively when going into last season, Woody said that it Marvin being a 2nd or third option had to take place?

He's wanting Marvin to step up like Joe, Josh, and Bibby...as far as scoring. It's not like he was wanting Wade numbers. Sabatoge? Not even close. It's not wishful thinking to hope any player on your team steps up as a second or third option. He wasn't asking for Marvin to turn into "the guy"....

[Diesel]

He's wanting Marvin to step up like Joe, Josh, and Bibby...as far as scoring. It's not like he was wanting Wade numbers. Sabatoge? Not even close. It's not wishful thinking to hope any player on your team steps up as a second or third option. He wasn't asking for Marvin to turn into "the guy"....

No to be specific, AHF amoung others were making the argument that Marvin is asked to play 4th option and to be docile. However, who would ask him to do that other than Woody.. if that were true? And if Woody asked him to take a 4th option role, then what the hell was he talking about in the interview. Woody had sky is the limited painted on Marvin... not 4th option. 4th option was Marvin's choice by play.

[JTB]

No to be specific, AHF amoung others were making the argument that Marvin is asked to play 4th option and to be docile. However, who would ask him to do that other than Woody.. if that were true? And if Woody asked him to take a 4th option role, then what the hell was he talking about in the interview. Woody had sky is the limited painted on Marvin... not 4th option. 4th option was Marvin's choice by play.

Let me ask you one question:

We know you hate marvin but answer me this do you want him here still and step up or do you want to trade him! An if so who do you want us to trade marv to and get for him?

[Admin]

Let me ask you one question:

We know you hate marvin but answer me this do you want him here still and step up or do you want to trade him! An if so who do you want us to trade marv to and get for him?

This should be cause for an immediate and permanent ban!

[Admin]

No to be specific, AHF amoung others were making the argument that Marvin is asked to play 4th option and to be docile. However, who would ask him to do that other than Woody.. if that were true? And if Woody asked him to take a 4th option role, then what the hell was he talking about in the interview. Woody had sky is the limited painted on Marvin... not 4th option. 4th option was Marvin's choice by play.

So playing the role that you are asked to play, which is to space the floor properly, knock down the open 3, and drive to the basket is what you'd call being "docile"? Then I guess that also makes Tim Duncan docile since he also does what the coach asks him to do.

[Swatguy]

So playing the role that you are asked to play, which is to space the floor properly, knock down the open 3, and drive to the basket is what you'd call being "docile"? Then I guess that also makes Tim Duncan docile since he also does what the coach asks him to do.

Dolf, the guy clearly brought a "3" shot and played better defense and rebounding.

However,

He still tends to disappear in the 4th quarter and in crucial moments of games. It is as when he dont get the ball, he is glad.

He Has Not Stepped up.

I have witnessed him do a few "beastly things" but, it is not consistant and few in between.

[Diesel]

Let me ask you one question:

We know you hate marvin but answer me this do you want him here still and step up or do you want to trade him! An if so who do you want us to trade marv to and get for him?

Although this is totally off topic, I will answer.

I want what's best for the Hawks team... And always have. I'm tired of us closing our eyes and not recognizing the problems with our team. At no time have I ever said that we should CUT Marvin. I feel that we should get our best value for Marvin. That means either resigning him and playing him or finding a good trade for him. However, don't tell me that it's obvious he's worth 8 million when he's a 4th option who gets most of his points because of the benevolence of others. The other bit of eye closing that is done by the fans is this whole lie about Marvin being a great defender. Statistically, you can't prove it. In fact, Statistically, we're better defensively with Joe playing Sf and Flip playing SG. I think the best position for Marvin is to play off the bench. I don't know why so many people are threatened by that. However, if he's as good as anyone here says, then he should be able to play his way back to the starting unit.

[AHF]

No to be specific, AHF amoung others were making the argument that Marvin is asked to play 4th option and to be docile. However, who would ask him to do that other than Woody.. if that were true? And if Woody asked him to take a 4th option role, then what the hell was he talking about in the interview. Woody had sky is the limited painted on Marvin... not 4th option. 4th option was Marvin's choice by play.

The role Marvin was asked to play was hitting open jump shots and driving the rim. He did both very effectively last season.

If Woody actually wanted Marvin to do more he would do something novel. He would run plays that put the ball in Marvin's hands. In fact, he did do that when Joe was out. The rest of the time, he had Marvin play off the rest of the team for jump shots and drive the paint.

If Woodson wants more out of someone like Marvin, he needs to run plays not just isos with the ball in someone else's hands. (Just to be clear, I think running isos with the ball in Marvin's hands isn't a good idea either. Running plays like pick and rolls is a good idea.)

[Admin]

Dolf, the guy clearly brought a "3" shot and played better defense and rebounding.

However,

He still tends to disappear in the 4th quarter and in crucial moments of games. It is as when he dont get the ball, he is glad.

He Has Not Stepped up.

I have witnessed him do a few "beastly things" but, it is not consistant and few in between.

Actually he HAS been consistent. He has been consistent in his scoring quarter to quarter half to half. So not only has he NOT disappeared in the 4th, he has been one of the few who actually maintain in the 4th quarter what he did in the 1st three quarters.

If Marvin went out and scored 1 or 2 more baskets in the 4th quarter we'd be asking why isn't he being consistent and scoring those 1 to 2 more baskets in each of the other quarters. Yes we'd all like him to score more points but there are only so many shots to go around and for being the 4th option on offense and for playing the role that Woody asks him to play I think he's done a terrific job of doing it consistently game in and game out.

[Diesel]

So playing the role that you are asked to play, which is to space the floor properly, knock down the open 3, and drive to the basket is what you'd call being "docile"? Then I guess that also makes Tim Duncan docile since he also does what the coach asks him to do.

First of all, it's a huge assumption that Marvin was asked to play that role. Why is it that when Marvin was out and Joe slid over to the Sf, that he wasn't asked to play that same role. Nor was Flip asked to play that same role? It's strange how when Marvin goes out... that role is no longer important to our team? I think that there's a great confusion about what Marvin is asked to do and what Marvin does. I don't think Marvin was asked to be a 3 point shooter. Moreover, to suggest that Woody has certain offensive roles defined provokes my laughter. Just look at Josh Smith. I guess he's asked to shoot those boneheaded threes too?

[Admin]

First of all, it's a huge assumption that Marvin was asked to play that role. Why is it that when Marvin was out and Joe slid over to the Sf, that he wasn't asked to play that same role. Nor was Flip asked to play that same role? It's strange how when Marvin goes out... that role is no longer important to our team? I think that there's a great confusion about what Marvin is asked to do and what Marvin does. I don't think Marvin was asked to be a 3 point shooter. Moreover, to suggest that Woody has certain offensive roles defined provokes my laughter. Just look at Josh Smith. I guess he's asked to shoot those boneheaded threes too?

First of all, the evidence suggests that Marvin was/is asked to play a certain role since he plays that role every quarter of every game unless there is a starter missing, such as Joe, and Marvin is asked to do more and always does more.

Secondly, surely you understand the difference between a position and a particular person playing a position, right? If we had Chris Paul do you think he'd be asked to play the same role at PG that we ask Bibby to play?

Thirdly, while you may not like our "offensive system" it's obvious that there are defined roles for every one of our starters since we play the same way each and every game and throughout the game. I never said it's a great system, but it's a system with defined roles nonetheless.

Finally, I think that Woodson allows Smith to freelance A LOT more than he does Marvin and Horford because if he doesn't then Smith doesn't give 100% so while I'm sure he cringes when Josh shoots 3's it's obvious that he allows it.

[AHF]

Moreover, to suggest that Woody has certain offensive roles defined provokes my laughter. Just look at Josh Smith. I guess he's asked to shoot those boneheaded threes too?

Josh Smith is consistently placed on the outside. He may not be asked to shoot those 3's (in fact, I am sure he isn't) but he is deliberately placed out there in our offense.

Remember this quote after Woodson was upset with Bibby for giving it to a wide open Josh Smith on the perimeter?

"If you don't want me to throw to him put him somewhere else," Bibby shouted

The placement of Josh Smith is a problem of mine with the offense Woody runs.

Edited July 29, 2009 by AHF

[Diesel]

Josh Smith is consistently placed on the outside. He may not be asked to shoot those 3's (in fact, I am sure he isn't) but he is deliberately placed out there in our offense.

Remember this quote after Woodson was upset with Bibby for giving it to a wide open Josh Smith on the perimeter?

The placement of Josh Smith is a problem of mine with the offense Woody runs.

And I say that Woody doesn't put Smoove out there for offensive purposes. Smoove is out there to run down turnover fast breaks. However, it proves my point, Smoove is not asked to shoot threes and I don't think Marvin is either. Like Smoove, he's over there and he's open.

While Smoove may be out there because of a defensive purpose, Marvin is out there probably because of logical floor spacing. However, that doesn't mean he has to stay there. Nor should that be a function of his "Role" as dol is trying to suggest. NO... Back to my question if we had either Butler or Pierce would they do what Marvin does? The answer is no. They may start out over there but as the clock ticks, i can guarantee you that their aggressiveness will force them to move to another part of the floor. That's the difference between role players and stars. A role player is just going to wait to be used. A star will make his own opportunity. Marvin is not a star. He's a role player. Therefore we should not expect any more than what we are getting from him.

[exodus]

And I say that Woody doesn't put Smoove out there for offensive purposes. Smoove is out there to run down turnover fast breaks. However, it proves my point, Smoove is not asked to shoot threes and I don't think Marvin is either. Like Smoove, he's over there and he's open.

So Woodson puts his pf (who scores far better inside and can't shoot a lick) on the outside to run down turnover fast breaks?

:laughing5:

[Diesel]

So Woodson puts his pf (who scores far better inside and can't shoot a lick) on the outside to run down turnover fast breaks?

You mean who scores better on dunks?

Tell me Ex. What's Smoove's goto move on the inside?

Is it an up and under?

A show and go?

A dream fake?

Does he play back to the basket?

Does he dribble the man inside like Barkley used to do?

This inside offense...

Aside from fast break dunks.. exactly what is it?

:slap1:

Smoove doesn't shoot well either. However, i guess Woody is saying at least I can use him on defense better by keeping him closer to the key. BTW.. you don't have to guess about it. Watch a game and you see that's where Smoove sets up. We're not postulating here. This is FACT.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Diesel

[exodus]

You mean who scores better on dunks?

Tell me Ex. What's Smoove's goto move on the inside?

Is it an up and under?

A show and go?

A dream fake?

Does he play back to the basket?

Does he dribble the man inside like Barkley used to do?

This inside offense...

Aside from fast break dunks.. exactly what is it?

Smith scores 8.4 ppg inside but only 3 ppg on dunks.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL11.HTM

He scores a lot in the half court by posting up and coming across the middle for a hook. He also beats other 4s off the dribble. Watch a game sometime. You might learn something.

For comparison

Bosh scored 6.9 ppg inside.

Amare scored 8.4 ppg inside.

Duncan scored 7.5 ppg inside.

Boozer scored 7.9 ppg inside.

The idea that Smith sets up on the perimeter to guard against turnover fast breaks is one of the dumbest things i have ever seen you post at that is saying something given all the competition. The Hawks averaged 12.8 turnovers per game, 6th fewest in the NBA.

[DrReality]

Who are you talking to? Is there some invisible poster who's arguing with you about this sabotage?

Good one. Conspiracy theory?

[Dsinner]

Damnit, I thought this was going to be an anti-Woody thread. I should have known.