Hawksquawk Bias?

[Diesel]

You avoided answering the question and changed the subject. You expect everyone to answer your questions but when you are asked a simple question its dodgeball time.

You are the one accusing the team and the board of treating Marvin like a star. When asked to back that up you run and hide. If you can't back it up then STFU.

I didn't dodge your question? I acknowledged your question. Did you miss that? Funny, you quoted exactly what I said. I said that I agree with you that there are no allstar on their second contract. I even gave you a reason.. because by the time you're at your second contract, you're already at an allstar level or close to it... so nobody is going to pay you like an allstar.

I then asked a related question. Which you're dodging like a prostitute and a church house...

[exodus]

Huh?? Are these two at all related.

What does Isiah's comments about Crawford have to do with weather or not JJ is better than Marvin defensively?

Because JJ/Marvin at the 2/3 is far better defensively than Crawford/JJ at the 2/3. it isn't that complex.

[exodus]

I didn't dodge your question? I acknowledged your question. Did you miss that? Funny, you quoted exactly what I said. I said that I agree with you that there are no allstar on their second contract. I even gave you a reason.. because by the time you're at your second contract, you're already at an allstar level or close to it... so nobody is going to pay you like an allstar.

I

Acknowleging a question and answering it are two different things. How can you agree with me on something when all it did was ask a question? That doesnt even make sense. try actually answering the question instead of noting or acknowleging it and then changing the subject.

You accused the team and this board of treating Marvin like a star. Time to show your evidence if there is any Captain Dodgeball.

This is your quote since you obviously forgot.

My problem is the fact that Marvin is not showing us much NOW and we're treating him as if he's going to be an allstar. He's the most impactless player that starts and makes 8 million per season and we're to blame.

Edited August 3, 2009 by exodus

[Diesel]

Because JJ/Marvin at the 2/3 is far better defensively than Crawford/JJ at the 2/3. it isn't that complex.

molehill, molehill, molehill... had you been asked about JJ/Marvin vs. Flip/JJ last year, you would have coughed up this same old wrong mess. I'm glad we have proof that Flip/JJ was better defensively than JJ/Marvin. I think it goes towards knocking down that tired belief that Marvin is a good defender. Fortunately, Crawford's offensive talent won't keep him off the court long. When people see what the Bibby/JC/JJ combo can do, I expect that there will be a lot of humble pie eating going around.. But molehill, you'll probably burying yourself into one of those holes you always use.

[Diesel]

Acknowleging a question and answering it are two different things. How can you agree with me on something when all it did was ask a question? That doesnt even make sense. try actually answering the question instead of noting or acknowleging it and then changing the subject.

You accused the team and this board of treating Marvin like a star. Time to show your evidence if there is any Captain Dodgeball.

This is your quote since you obviously forgot.

A star gets to keep his position no matter what?

Al Harrington was better than Marvin (stil is). We traded AL to make room for Marvin.

JChillz was better than Marvin, we benched Chillz until he got fed up and left.

Flip was better than Marvin, when the playoff came, Marvin was back starting and stinking up the Joint.

We just acquired a player that is 2 times the offensive force that Marvin can even think of being... We're talking about Marvin starting and JC coming off the bench...

Is that not star treatment?

[exodus]

A star gets to keep his position no matter what?

Al Harrington was better than Marvin (stil is). We traded AL to make room for Marvin.

They traded Harrington because they didn't want a complete defensive liability at the 4. Harrington has been on 3 teams since he left the Hawks.

JChillz was better than Marvin, we benched Chillz until he got fed up and left.

If you mean less is more then sure Chillz was better lol.

Flip was better than Marvin, when the playoff came, Marvin was back starting and stinking up the Joint.

Flip played the 1 and 2 while Marvin played the 3 and 4. marvin only started 3 games total in the playoffs and Flip didn't exactly distinguish himself in general. I am not seeing the connection. it should also be noted that Flip is still without a home.

We just acquired a player that is 2 times the offensive force that Marvin can even think of being... We're talking about Marvin starting and JC coming off the bench...

LOL got to love Diesel math. As far as i know Crawford has never averaged 28 ppg. The fact that Marvin is starting is not evidence that they are treating him like an All-Star. All it means is that they have more sense than you which admittedly isn't saying much.

[exodus]

molehill, molehill, molehill... had you been asked about JJ/Marvin vs. Flip/JJ last year, you would have coughed up this same old wrong mess. I'm glad we have proof that Flip/JJ was better defensively than JJ/Marvin. I think it goes towards knocking down that tired belief that Marvin is a good defender. Fortunately, Crawford's offensive talent won't keep him off the court long. When people see what the Bibby/JC/JJ combo can do, I expect that there will be a lot of humble pie eating going around.. But molehill, you'll probably burying yourself into one of those holes you always use.

That "tired belief" that Marvin is a good defender has been repeated in nearly every article about the Hawks since the season ended.

[AHF]

A star gets to keep his position no matter what?

Al Harrington was better than Marvin (stil is). We traded AL to make room for Marvin.

JChillz was better than Marvin, we benched Chillz until he got fed up and left.

Flip was better than Marvin, when the playoff came, Marvin was back starting and stinking up the Joint.

We just acquired a player that is 2 times the offensive force that Marvin can even think of being... We're talking about Marvin starting and JC coming off the bench...

Is that not star treatment?

Are you talking about the coaching staff or the Squawk here?

I don't think Marvin is a star and would definitely sit him behind a number of SFs and some SGs (in combo with JJ) around the league. The Bibby/Crawford backcourt with JJ starting at SF would be a defensive disaster, though. It would also be terrible on the boards. This is why Woodson indicated Crawford will be coming off the bench and why I think that is the right decision given our personnel.

Give me a real star SF like Lebron James, Carmello Anthony, etc. and I would happily move Marvin to the bench. You don't have to be a star, however, for a team to realize that Al Harrington will never be a significant player on a good team and to get rid of him for whatever they can get. You also don't have to be a star to be an efficient complimentary scorer that makes the team better defensively and on the boards as compared to a Bibby/Crawford/JJ lineup.

Crawford needs the ball and he will be able to do his best scoring with either JJ or Bibby on the bench where he can be more of a focus of the offense and have the ball in his hand more. This is a fairly simple decision from my perspective and why I thought it could be a disaster to trade for Crawford if we planned to resign Bibby and start the two of them in the backcourt together.

[Guest Walter]

This is the big problem i have with you and Diesel.

LOL Ex, you have big problems period. Don't pawn them off or lump me in. I prefer to remain outside your problem.

You always have to bring up the draft as if that has any relevance to anything.

Unfortunately for all top pick players who do not remotely measure up to their hype, this is their fate.

The draft was in 2005 and the guy who picked Marvin is gone. Yes it was a very poor pick. Everyone knows that. Get over it.

I'm so glad he is gone. It was a very poor pick. Everyone SHOULD have KNOWN that. It appears that you haven't gotten over it or else you wouldn't mind a reference to it.

I don't get how Marvin is "content" given the strides he has made. His finishing inside has improved by 10% in two years. His three point shooting has gone from 1-10 to 55-155 in one year.

Any report on the MW offseason work from his assistant coach this year? Still in school? Priorities. His don't make him the best BB player he can be. A better man maybe, but not a better baller.

It is laughable that you and Diesel openly doubted Marvins talent before the draft and now are trying to say he isn't living up to his talent.

Black and white much?!? MW has always been a grey player. I never thought MW was as talented as you did (and I was right). I always thought MW was more talented than his lack of desire would allow him to tap into. I was right about that. Maybe Ex, you simply do not like being reminded you were wrong and you read into any comment about MW just how wrong you were. I don't know, but you should also get over it.

[The bottom line is that Marvin isn't as talented and athletic as people thought before the draft. He doesn't have the talent to be a star player so judging him by star standards is ridiculous.

[exodus]

Black and white much?!? MW has always been a grey player. I never thought MW was as talented as you did (and I was right). I always thought MW was more talented than his lack of desire would allow him to tap into. I was right about that. Maybe Ex, you simply do not like being reminded you were wrong and you read into any comment about MW just how wrong you were. I don't know, but you should also get over it.

Please tell he where exactly i was wrong about MW. I would like to know where you are getting this from. Looks like you are making up a strawman to make yourself feel better. I wasn't even posting here when MW drafted and in his first couple of months on the team i thought he was a train wreck. I have said several times that i seriously doubt he will ever make an All-Star team.

My take on MW is that i refuse to hold him responsible for BK's stupidity. As long as he continues to improve and makes the most of his ability i am fine with him. I just don't think he is that talented. He is still clumsy and weak and i have never even seen him shoot a pullup j off the dribble.

And as far as his lack of desire that is just more of your nonsense. He has been improving steadily across the board. He has added three pointer this year, shot 10% better on his inside shots over the last two years and set a career high in rebounds. When one of Bibby/JJ/smith were out or ineffective he stepped up his scoring noticably. He is also the first Hawk since Steve Smith to get to the line 20 times in a game.

MW is considerably behind Granger's 25, 5, and 3. Granger is not more "talented". Granger is not more experienced. Granger just wants it a whole hell of alot more and works harder.

Granger went to college 4 years. He was far more experienced than Marvin coming into the league. He came into the league with moves Marvin just doesnt have. And how exactly would you know hard hard each player works?

I'm so glad he is gone. It was a very poor pick. Everyone SHOULD have KNOWN that. It appears that you haven't gotten over it or else you wouldn't mind a reference to it.

That is just plain dumb. Where he was drafted has no relevance to his game now. It isn't debatable. Bringing up the draft time and again in order to bash MW is again just dumb because he didn't force the Hawks to pick him.

Edited August 4, 2009 by exodus

[Guest Walter]

Good to see you posting Walt. You been away?

Got married. Good woman. Less time for posting. I did miss seeing the Hawks, reading, and posting.

W

[Guest Walter]

And how exactly would you know hard hard each player works?

One of them isn't spending the majority of his off-season time going to and studying for a bachelors. If that isn't enough, then I don't know what proof would ever convince you. Moreover, you merely have to watch them play 5 minutes to know just which one goes after it more and wants it more.

That is just plain dumb. Where he was drafted has no relevance to his game now. It isn't debatable. Bringing up the draft time and again in order to bash MW is again just dumb because he didn't force the Hawks to pick him.

It's the nature of the beast. You get drafted high, so come expectations with the money. As far as it's relevance to "his game" I never said it did (though higher picks should be and play better). I said essentially watching him leaves a sour taste. Part of that is where he was drafted and part of that is HOW HE PLAYS (and how he doesn't want to be the man or devote himself to basketball in the offseason the way most other professionals do (It's simple math...if you take 3 classes and study a minimm of 1 hour a class a day that's roughly 6 hours in a day devoted to schooling. Other NBA ballers generally don't give 6 hours a day to A SUMMER JOB.).

EX, apparently you got over the sour taste of MW early on. As long as he's spending summers with his head in the books instead of focused on getting the most out of his basketball abilities, then the taste is still bitter. If you leave early to cash in on the hype, you better produce or work your *ss off in BBall remediation to make up for your quiting BBall school early. It's not like MW hasn't been handed everything here.

But again, all that being said, MW is worth the contract mentioned, especially to this team. We need him or his capitol.

W

W

[exodus]

One of them isn't spending the majority of his off-season time going to and studying for a bachelors. If that isn't enough, then I don't know what proof would ever convince you. Moreover, you merely have to watch them play 5 minutes to know just which one goes after it more and wants it more.

It's the nature of the beast. You get drafted high, so come expectations with the money. As far as it's relevance to "his game" I never said it did (though higher picks should be and play better). I said essentially watching him leaves a sour taste. Part of that is where he was drafted and part of that is HOW HE PLAYS (and how he doesn't want to be the man or devote himself to basketball in the offseason the way most other professionals do (It's simple math...if you take 3 classes and study a minimm of 1 hour a class a day that's roughly 6 hours in a day devoted to schooling. Other NBA ballers generally don't give 6 hours a day to A SUMMER JOB.).

EX, apparently you got over the sour taste of MW early on. As long as he's spending summers with his head in the books instead of focused on getting the most out of his basketball abilities, then the taste is still bitter. If you leave early to cash in on the hype, you better produce or work your *ss off in BBall remediation to make up for your quiting BBall school early. It's not like MW hasn't been handed everything here.

But again, all that being said, MW is worth the contract mentioned, especially to this team. We need him or his capitol.

W

W

I am glad to see that you are ok with resigning him but I really don't get how going to summer school shows a lack of work ethic. I think most people would take that as a positive sign. Given that marvin went from 1-10 from 3 to 55-155 from 3 (missing 21 games) it is clear he is working on his game. When JJ was out marvin stepped up his scoring big time. When Bibby and Smith were out at Denver Marvin was the focus on the offense and dropped 31 on them.

Offensively i think Marvin's big problem is that he doesn't really have a j off the dribble. He either shoots a catch and shoot J or drives. Some guys can shoot off the dribble and others can't and i don't think Marvin can do it consistently. Every now and then he will shoot a step back j but he doesn't have a pullup to speak of and that is why i don't see him being a 20 ppg player.

As far as the draft goes i didn't watch Marvin in college much so i didn't know what to think. Here is what i said in Dec '05 after watching him for a month.

Here is my problem with the Marvin pick:

I didn't see that much of Marvin at NC and obviously didn't go to the workouts so I didn't know how good he was. BK seemed to be selling Marvin as the BPA and I really didn't have a problem with a 13 win team picking the BPA.

However it is now clear that the BPA theory had nothing to do with the Marvin pick because he wasn't the BPA, or even close. He picked Marvin because he MIGHT BE the best player years from now. Basically he rolled the dice and hoped to come out a winner in the end.

I don't like this reasoning at all. If you have a top 3 pick you can either draft for need or draft the BPA. The Hawks did neither. Right now the players picked 3-9 (with the exception of Webster) are ALL clearly better than Marvin.

Could Marvin wind up being the best player in several years? It's possible, and I sure hope it happens. But for every player picked on potential that actually lived up to it there are several who didn't.

My link

I think that should make it clear that i didn't have any pro Marvin bias coming into his rookie year.

Edited August 4, 2009 by exodus

[Diesel]

I really don't get how going to summer school shows a lack of work ethic. I think most people would take that as a positive sign.

Uhm...

If I paid you 8 million dollars per year to make my company better. Yet, during the hours of 4-6 PM, you're online taking a Phoenix University course...

Sure, you're bettering yourself.. however, you're doing it on my dime. I wouldn't pay you that much to get a 8-4 work day from you. I pay you that much because I expect that you will be working on my company even while I'm sleep. You're thinking of ways to make my company better at 2 AM.

I was watching the T.O. Show the other day. I am impressed by T.O. because even in the offseason, he's preparing for the season. When you are a top quality athlete being paid to be one of the best in the world, it means something that you are spending your time becoming the best that you can be at your craft. You have the rest of your lifetime to finish your degree. Your self ambitions and goals are meaningless if it's not helping the Hawks. We didn't pay Marvin all that money to be a scholar.

[JJFAN4LF]

Uhm...

If I paid you 8 million dollars per year to make my company better. Yet, during the hours of 4-6 PM, you're online taking a Phoenix University course...

Sure, you're bettering yourself.. however, you're doing it on my dime. I wouldn't pay you that much to get a 8-4 work day from you. I pay you that much because I expect that you will be working on my company even while I'm sleep. You're thinking of ways to make my company better at 2 AM.

I was watching the T.O. Show the other day. I am impressed by T.O. because even in the offseason, he's preparing for the season. When you are a top quality athlete being paid to be one of the best in the world, it means something that you are spending your time becoming the best that you can be at your craft. You have the rest of your lifetime to finish your degree. Your self ambitions and goals are meaningless if it's not helping the Hawks. We didn't pay Marvin all that money to be a scholar.

I believe Al Horford goes to school as well. At least I know he did in his rookie year. Anyway, going to school during the summer shouldn't affect the way you play on the court. You're basically saying that because Horford went to school that one summer that he isn't a hard worker. Also, according to Al Horford, he considers himself the hardest working guy on the team. So, by saying Marvin is going to school is a sign of bad work ethic means you're saying Al Horford has a bad work ethic...thus, saying no one on our team has a good work ethic. Going to school is an irrelevant reason.

[buckeye242424]

So by that token, it should be the same if the poll was Smoove vs. Beasley or Horf vs. Thompson?Like I said previously, I think what goes on here with Marvin (specifically) is outside of the range of what a DIEHARD fanbase does.

For those who think that it's a love affair for BW wih GS fans?

Does this sound familiar??

What are you asking? The same? Do I think Smoove vs. Beasley or Horf vs. Thompson will be a complete wash in favor of the Hawk? No. Will there be a bias, in reagards to the intial question of the thread? Yes. There will be a bias on any Hawk compared to a Non-Hawk on this board.

[exodus]

Uhm...

If I paid you 8 million dollars per year to make my company better. Yet, during the hours of 4-6 PM, you're online taking a Phoenix University course...

Sure, you're bettering yourself.. however, you're doing it on my dime.

Wrong. The hawks aren't paying anyone in the OFFseason.

During the season the practices and or games don't last more than 4 hours. So if the Hawks aren't working on basketball during their other waking hours they aren't working hard enough? Sure

If Marvin was working at basketball for 4 hours a day in the summer most people would consider that a sign of a good work ethic. However doing that wouldn't prevent him from spending time getting his degree. Working at the game and going to school are not mutually exclusive endeavors. When i was in college i played ball all the time and worked out also.

[gsuteke]

All message boards are biased towards their own players. It is my sincere hope we don't have 8 spin offs of this very discussion to prove that point.

[Diesel]

Wrong. The hawks aren't paying anyone in the OFFseason.

During the season the practices and or games don't last more than 4 hours. So if the Hawks aren't working on basketball during their other waking hours they aren't working hard enough? Sure

If Marvin was working at basketball for 4 hours a day in the summer most people would consider that a sign of a good work ethic. However doing that wouldn't prevent him from spending time getting his degree. Working at the game and going to school are not mutually exclusive endeavors. When i was in college i played ball all the time and worked out also.

Let's take it the other way then.

When Shawn Kemp came in for the 1998 season fat and out of shape... and he was making 12 Million dollars. Had you been the owner of the team, how would you have felt?

[gsuteke]

Let's take it the other way then.

When Shawn Kemp came in for the 1998 season fat and out of shape... and he was making 12 Million dollars. Had you been the owner of the team, how would you have felt?

Are you saying Marvin came in "fat and out of shape?"