New Hawks guard Jamal Crawford has been every bit as good as advertised in training camp, and then some.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

No matter how many points Marvin scores, his main goal should be to up his FG% and 3FG%.

If he could shoot 48%+ FGs and 40%+ 3FG, that would be a big boost for this team. Unless we play "super up tempo", the gunner guards are going to take shots away from him. He may not reach 11 FGA this year.

So if that's the case, he has to maximize every scoring chance he gets.

If Smoove doesn't up his rebounding, then he does need to take it upon himself to try to grab a few more boards. It'll be nice to see him over 7 boards a game this year.

A Bibby - Crawford starting backcourt would spell doom for the Hawks. JC is way too streaky offensively, is almost as bad ( if not just as bad ) as Bibby on defense, and rebounds at the same rate of a Salim Stoudamire.

It would be unfair to JJ, Smoove, and Horford to ask them to cover for both Bibby AND Crawford on the defensive end.

[buckeye242424]

Once again. This year. I will go back to it... Give me your expectations in HARD numbers for Marvin during this 2009-2010 season.

I expect Marvin to score between 14-15 points a game, average around 6 or 7 boards a game, and 3 or 4 assists. I expect him to continue to get to the FT line and not rely solely on his improved jump shot. I also want to continue to see Marvin being matched up vs. the better SF/SG's in the league on defense because I feel with his length and athleticism, he gives the Hawks the best shot of slowing Lebron's and Kobe's down. Most importantly, I want to see him make it through the season without major injuries, and not miss a ton of games.

[Diesel]

Another hijacked thread! Lets do this the right way...since its a Crawford thread, what are your expectations for Jamal this season?

Here are mine:

16 ppg

4 asst

2 boards

1 steal

In the running for 6th man of the year award!

How much PT will Jamal get?

If he gets over 30 mpg, then I say:

15.5 ppg

6.1 apg

2.5 rpg

1 spg.

[Diesel]

No matter how many points Marvin scores, his main goal should be to up his FG% and 3FG%.

If he could shoot 48%+ FGs and 40%+ 3FG, that would be a big boost for this team. Unless we play "super up tempo", the gunner guards are going to take shots away from him. He may not reach 11 FGA this year.

Under those circumstances, whoose to say that his efficiency isn't due to shot selectivity?

It's easy to guess that Marvin can shoot a High percentage because most of the time he's not guarded and when he is guarded, he doesn't shoot. That's the whole problem with him not being aggressive. That's why Marvin can have a good first half and totally disappear in the second. In the second half, teams put token pressure on Marvin and Marvin doesn't shoot. How do we applaud this guy for his disappearing acts? How do we support this guy taking up space as the decoy when there are better players sitting on the bench?

[AHF]

Once again. This year. I will go back to it... Give me your expectations in HARD numbers for Marvin during this 2009-2010 season.

I would like to see Marvin hit a 17.5 PER for this season.

[Buzzard]

How much PT will Jamal get?

If he gets over 30 mpg, then I say:

15.5 ppg

6.1 apg

2.5 rpg

1 spg.

Those numbers work fine for me as well. With JJ, Bibby, and hopefully Teague distributing the ball this season, 6 assist a game may be a little bit of a reach but I would love to see it happen.

[buckeye242424]

Under those circumstances, whoose to say that his efficiency isn't due to shot selectivity?

It's easy to guess that Marvin can shoot a High percentage because most of the time he's not guarded and when he is guarded, he doesn't shoot. That's the whole problem with him not being aggressive. That's why Marvin can have a good first half and totally disappear in the second. In the second half, teams put token pressure on Marvin and Marvin doesn't shoot. How do we applaud this guy for his disappearing acts? How do we support this guy taking up space as the decoy when there are better players sitting on the bench?

The majority of NBA players better shoot a high % when they're not guarded. If not, they shouldn't be in the NBA.

And when he is guarded, I'm glad he doesn't choose to be overly aggressive. Would it satisfy you if Marvin chose to be more aggressive and fired up a shot contested rather than run some kind of set? Point being, I think the problem with our offense is too much one-on-one play, specifically JJ - because he has to. Now we add another player with those attributes with Jamal.....then you want Marvin to force the issue? If that's the case, the Hawks might as well join the "And 1" league.

[Diesel]

The majority of NBA players better shoot a high % when they're not guarded. If not, they shouldn't be in the NBA.

And when he is guarded, I'm glad he doesn't choose to be overly aggressive. Would it satisfy you if Marvin chose to be more aggressive and fired up a shot contested rather than run some kind of set? Point being, I think the problem with our offense is too much one-on-one play, specifically JJ - because he has to. Now we add another player with those attributes with Jamal.....then you want Marvin to force the issue? If that's the case, the Hawks might as well join the "And 1" league.

2008-2009 = 98.1 ppg (10th) Marvin = 10.2 fga

2007-2008 = 98.2 ppg (16th) Marvin = 11.5 fga

2006-2007 = 93.7 ppg (29th) Marvin = 11 fga

2005=2006 = 97.2 ppg (12th) Marvin = 6.7 fga.

These are our seasons with Marvin offensively. You point at JJ's one on one play as the problem, however, JJ shares the ball. He has led us in assists since he has been here. Marvin just never asks for the ball or never takes the shot when he gets the ball. The addition of Jamal Crawford means.... LESS SHOTS for Marvin.

[MaceCase]

Didn't have a chance to see the game but did listen in on the radio broadcast, from what I can tell from that and the boxscore hopefully Woody utilized Crawful just like North has been suggesting over the summer. He played a shade under 9 minutes going 0-4 while putting up 2 assists and 2 boards to go with a turnover. Not terrible but from what I heard he was actually bogging down the offense with his dribbling and apparently Woody is pulling that leash early to let him know what it's going to be like this season. There wont be too many chances to shoot himself out of a slump especially if Teague continues going to the hole with purpose, or maybe there was an injury I am unaware of.

[buckeye242424]

2008-2009 = 98.1 ppg (10th) Marvin = 10.2 fga

2007-2008 = 98.2 ppg (16th) Marvin = 11.5 fga

2006-2007 = 93.7 ppg (29th) Marvin = 11 fga

2005=2006 = 97.2 ppg (12th) Marvin = 6.7 fga.

These are our seasons with Marvin offensively. You point at JJ's one on one play as the problem, however, JJ shares the ball. He has led us in assists since he has been here. Marvin just never asks for the ball or never takes the shot when he gets the ball. The addition of Jamal Crawford means.... LESS SHOTS for Marvin.

JJ led us in assists because he had the ball in his hands the majority of the time and was forced to score, or set someone else up. This is a problem for the Hawks.

[Diesel]

JJ led us in assists because he had the ball in his hands the majority of the time and was forced to score, or set someone else up. This is a problem for the Hawks.

With Bibby on the floor, this didn't have to be the case.

In fact.

2006-2007 JJ = 20 fga 4.4 apg

2007-2008 JJ = 18.3 fga 5.8 apg

2008-2009 JJ = 18.0 fga 5.8 apg

The trend is unmistakable. JJ's fga is going down and his apg is going up with the addition of Bibby. I think having Craw will further enhance that.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Didn't have a chance to see the game but did listen in on the radio broadcast, from what I can tell from that and the boxscore hopefully Woody utilized Crawful just like North has been suggesting over the summer. He played a shade under 9 minutes going 0-4 while putting up 2 assists and 2 boards to go with a turnover. Not terrible but from what I heard he was actually bogging down the offense with his dribbling and apparently Woody is pulling that leash early to let him know what it's going to be like this season. There wont be too many chances to shoot himself out of a slump especially if Teague continues going to the hole with purpose, or maybe there was an injury I am unaware of.

Actually, he did get hurt a little, so Woody held him out of the 2nd half.

But that is exactly how I would handle Crawford when his shot isn't going. If he's off, you sit him down. You don't let him shoot you out of a game, or shoot the opponent back into the game.

Sekou and some of the others did like his passing, especially to Zaza. If he wants to play the playmaker role to set up others when his shot isn't going, I have no problem with that.

It's just one preseason game, so I wouldn't be surprised to see "Superstar Jamal" show up in one of these games, in which he makes about 5 threes and score 25 points in 25 minutes on 10 - 13 FGs.

But the guy who played more like Flip last night, was Teague. Acie's big problem is that he couldn't finish when going to the hole. Teague not only finished, but drew some "and-1s". That kind of play is what made Flip valuable last season.

Crawford will ALWAYS depend on his jumper. He uses his quickness to create separation to get his jumpshot off, but not to take it to the rim. And it's a shame too, because that guy could make a living from the FT line with the way he shoots FTs.

[exodus]

Under those circumstances, whoose to say that his efficiency isn't due to shot selectivity?

It's easy to guess that Marvin can shoot a High percentage because most of the time he's not guarded and when he is guarded, he doesn't shoot. That's the whole problem with him not being aggressive. That's why Marvin can have a good first half and totally disappear in the second. In the second half, teams put token pressure on Marvin and Marvin doesn't shoot. How do we applaud this guy for his disappearing acts? How do we support this guy taking up space as the decoy when there are better players sitting on the bench?

Please explain how a "decoy" managed to get to the ft line 20 times in a game.

*crickets*

[Diesel]

Please explain how a "decoy" managed to get to the ft line 20 times in a game.

*crickets*

In A GAME....

Let me guess...

2 years ago in Seattle when His mama, aunts, and friends were out and the team gave every possession to Marvin.

Is that your "A GAME".

Dude, you're boring me.

Let's try this on for size. Last year, Marvin average 4.5 ft per game. Not 20. Not even the 5.5 ft per game that Crawford averaged.

[exodus]

In A GAME....

Let me guess...

2 years ago in Seattle when His mama, aunts, and friends were out and the team gave every possession to Marvin.

Is that your "A GAME".

Dude, you're boring me.

Let's try this on for size. Last year, Marvin average 4.5 ft per game. Not 20. Not even the 5.5 ft per game that Crawford averaged.

I knew you would dodge the question. Setting that aside...

JJ got to the line 4.58 times per game with far more touches yet somehow Marvin is the decoy that is never (do you want me to explain to you what that word means?) aggressive. Gotta love Diesel Math. I don't see you dogging JJ for his lack of free throw attempts. I guess that just doesn't fit your agenda.

Edited October 8, 2009 by exodus

[buckeye242424]

With Bibby on the floor, this didn't have to be the case.

In fact.

2006-2007 JJ = 20 fga 4.4 apg

2007-2008 JJ = 18.3 fga 5.8 apg

2008-2009 JJ = 18.0 fga 5.8 apg

The trend is unmistakable. JJ's fga is going down and his apg is going up with the addition of Bibby. I think having Craw will further enhance that.

I'm not debating the trend. JJ had an another guard that could shoot when he got doubled. Bibby can shoot, which would improve JJ's stats (assists) - when he's doubled and tripled teamed! Craw better enhance those stats!

Obviously, the brass around the Hawks know the "1 on1 iso" is a problem with our team or they wouldn't have brought in the personnel they did!

[thecampster]

In A GAME....

Let me guess...

2 years ago in Seattle when His mama, aunts, and friends were out and the team gave every possession to Marvin.

Is that your "A GAME".

Dude, you're boring me.

Let's try this on for size. Last year, Marvin average 4.5 ft per game. Not 20. Not even the 5.5 ft per game that Crawford averaged.

On Feb 4th and Feb 6th of this year, Joe Johnson was out for 2 games against Minnesota and Charlotte. With Josh still hobbled some on the ankle, Marvin stepped up and took the scoring burden.

In the game against Charlotte, he was 5-15 from the field going to the free throw line 20 times, making 18. He scored 29 points, had 7 rebounds, 2 blocks and 1 assist in 40 minutes.

In the game against Minnesota, he was 6-13 from the field going 11-14 from the free throw line. He scored 23 points, had 10 rebounds, 2 assists and 2 blocks in 41 minutes.

Stats over those 2 games averaged. 26.5 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1 spg, 1 bpg, 1.5 to/g and 17 free throws per game.

These were 2 of only 16 road wins for the Hawks all season and the way was led by Marvin. Marvins stats are as much a product of the ISO Joe system as anything. Without Joe in the lineup and Woody having to try something new, Marvin flourished. I think any Hawks fan would love 26.5 / 8.5 all year round from their small forward.

[Diesel]

I'm not debating the trend. JJ had an another guard that could shoot when he got doubled. Bibby can shoot, which would improve JJ's stats (assists) - when he's doubled and tripled teamed! Craw better enhance those stats!

Obviously, the brass around the Hawks know the "1 on1 iso" is a problem with our team or they wouldn't have brought in the personnel they did!

Just based on what you're saying here... JJ had confidence in Bibby but no confidence in Marvin. Or... Marvin would not convert assists that Joe gave him. It's one of the two.

[Diesel]

On Feb 4th and Feb 6th of this year, Joe Johnson was out for 2 games against Minnesota and Charlotte. With Josh still hobbled some on the ankle, Marvin stepped up and took the scoring burden.

In the game against Charlotte, he was 5-15 from the field going to the free throw line 20 times, making 18. He scored 29 points, had 7 rebounds, 2 blocks and 1 assist in 40 minutes.

In the game against Minnesota, he was 6-13 from the field going 11-14 from the free throw line. He scored 23 points, had 10 rebounds, 2 assists and 2 blocks in 41 minutes.

Stats over those 2 games averaged. 26.5 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1 spg, 1 bpg, 1.5 to/g and 17 free throws per game.

These were 2 of only 16 road wins for the Hawks all season and the way was led by Marvin. Marvins stats are as much a product of the ISO Joe system as anything. Without Joe in the lineup and Woody having to try something new, Marvin flourished. I think any Hawks fan would love 26.5 / 8.5 all year round from their small forward.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

I have added emphasis above. Now, let's go to the real questions.

With Joe out. Of course he steps up. That's fantastic. However, what happens when Joe comes back.... The next game, we lose to the Clipps. Marvin gets to the line 6 times. From 20 to 6 is a great difference. The game after that, Marvin scores 5 points, 2 trips to the free throw line in 29 minutes of play. So what's the deal. Do we blame Joe for Marvin's failure to be aggressive?

[thecampster]

On Feb 4th and Feb 6th of this year, Joe Johnson was out for 2 games against Minnesota and Charlotte. With Josh still hobbled some on the ankle, Marvin stepped up and took the scoring burden.

In the game against Charlotte, he was 5-15 from the field going to the free throw line 20 times, making 18. He scored 29 points, had 7 rebounds, 2 blocks and 1 assist in 40 minutes.

In the game against Minnesota, he was 6-13 from the field going 11-14 from the free throw line. He scored 23 points, had 10 rebounds, 2 assists and 2 blocks in 41 minutes.

Stats over those 2 games averaged. 26.5 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1 spg, 1 bpg, 1.5 to/g and 17 free throws per game.

These were 2 of only 16 road wins for the Hawks all season and the way was led by Marvin. Marvins stats are as much a product of the ISO Joe system as anything. Without Joe in the lineup and Woody having to try something new, Marvin flourished. I think any Hawks fan would love 26.5 / 8.5 all year round from their small forward.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

I have added emphasis above. Now, let's go to the real questions.

With Joe out. Of course he steps up. That's fantastic. However, what happens when Joe comes back.... The next game, we lose to the Clipps. Marvin gets to the line 6 times. From 20 to 6 is a great difference. The game after that, Marvin scores 5 points, 2 trips to the free throw line in 29 minutes of play. So what's the deal. Do we blame Joe for Marvin's failure to be aggressive?

Yes we do! This is such an obvious thing that only someone with an agenda would ignore it. Joe is the focal point of the offense. With Joe in the lineup, the pecking order for touches is drastically changed. Marvin is currently tied for the 4th option with Horford, behind Joe, Josh, Bibby. There are only about 100 shots a game to go around. Starters are on the floor about 2/3rds of the time. so that's about 66 shots to go between 5 starters. That's 13 shots a game. Law of averages say you make 50%. that's 13 points a game for a typical NBA starter. Marvin more than meets the criteria for a 4th offensive option. Who sets that priority? The coach.

This Marvin bashing is out of control and needs to stop. It's ridiculous. Who can honestly argue with the evidence of when he was called on to perform he went for 26.5 ppg and 8.5 rpg but the second Joe returned he went back to a 13 point a game guy. It's obvious the issue is offensive scheme. It is no different than why the heck is Josh constantly at the perimeter having to bail out a guard with 5 seconds on the clock. Again, it's offensive scheme centered around Joe Johnson. ISO Joe is just ISO Jordan 18 years later, with the only difference being that Joe isn't Jordan.

It's irritating to go through this every day and more importantly to see legitimate threads hijacked by this nonsense at every opportunity. You criticized Exodus for calling on the 20 Free throw game asking if it was 2 years ago in a pickup game with his family. You didn't even have the facts to draw on what game he was talking about. This is being blind to the facts on Marvin. Marvin is a solid defensive contributor and efficient offensive player that is not the focal point of the offense and for the life of me I can't figure out why he, Josh and Horford are not more focused on. 3 man games with 1 guard and big in a pick and roll with a wing cutter seems like a far better use of our talent to me but as long as ISO Joe is working and giving you fuel to bash Marvin, I say we roll with that.