Marvin deserves to be flamed....

[exodus]

We all know Marvin's over all FG% dropped b/c he shot so many more 3 point FGs.

Diesel, why did you not point out Marvin's 2 pt FG% in 07-08 compared to 08-09 ?

07-08 = .465 on 2 point FG %

08-09 = .492 on 2 point FG %

His 3 pt FG percentage also improved:

07-08 = .10 on 3pt FG %

08-09 = .354 on 3pt FG%

But... but.... Carmelo is better than Marvin so we would win more games with Carmelo. So there.

[Diesel]

My name is Diesel! FG% doesn't matter, TS% doesn't matter, the only stat that matters is points per game unless Marvin improves his scoring average next year. Then I'll move to Assist per game to show that Marvin shouldn't be a starter!!

Actually, your name is Perioa Bird and you are a child.

However, those %s do not matter as much as PPG. So, while you're busy praising TS%s... The game will be determined by who has the most points at the end. Damn. That's simple. In relation to wins and losses your percentages tell what your guy could have done... however, the PPG tells what your guy actually did. And right now, until games are determined by TS%s.. I think the more important stat is PPG.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Diesel

[exodus]

Actually, your name is Perioa Bird and you are a child.

However, those %s do not matter as much as PPG. So, while you're busy praising TS%s... The game will be determined by who has the most points at the end. Damn. That's simple. In relation to wins and losses your percentages tell what your guy could have done... however, the PPG tells what your guy actually did. And right now, until games are determined by TS%s.. I think the more important stat is PPG.

So what happened to your FG% argument? I guess you must have...... :white flag: on that?

Since you have changed your argument to PPG I am wondering where this logic was when you were saying Childress was better than Marvin?

:laughing5:

Edited October 13, 2009 by exodus

[Diesel]

So what happened to your FG% arguement? I guess you must have...... :white flag: on that?

You mean the argument you tried to force on me?

My point was and still is that TS% is not a strong measurement of overall improvement. (Period). and from AHF's change to PER.. I believe he agrees but won't say so.

Moreover, there's a reason why most people recognize ppg, rpg, and apg. Those are direct contributions to the team. If a player wants to improve, those are the places where most people look. If you want to talk about potential, you can go to these other stats that emphasize non contributing stats. But until they stop talking about triple doubles and double doubles and start talking about PERs, I don't think the graspable concept of points, rebounds, and assists will disappear.

[Buzzard]

No, again you missed it. The main point of what I'm saying is that if it doesn't direrctly contribute to us winning, then it doesn't mean that much. TS% is a very specific measurement but it doesn't matter the things that directly effects our winning. I illustrated this using Carmello vs. Marvin Marvin's TS% is .569.. Mello's was .564. Does this mean that Marvin is better than Mello? Does this mean that Marvin is as good as Mello? I would suggest that it's meaningless as to proving how Marvin rates against Mello as a player and furthermore it's useless in proving if a player has improved his overall game. If there is no direct benefit to the team in a jump in TS% then what exactly does it mean?? Marvin contributed less PPG than he did the year before. IS that good for the team? NOOO.... It's just another stat that proves something insignificant.

So what exactly does correlate to us winning more games? Marvin calling for the ball more? Kind if insignficant to me since we have won more games every year Marvin has been on the team; without him calling for the ball more. You say but do not prove that he does not want to improve for that one reason. Yet he has improved in at least three major categories every year he has played; and almost never calls for the ball. I do not see any logic behind this thread or aurgument at all.

[Buzzard]

But... but.... Carmelo is better than Marvin so we would win more games with Carmelo. So there.

Now that was funney as hell :thumbsupsmileyanim:

Edited October 13, 2009 by Buzzard

[exodus]

You mean the argument you tried to force on me?

My point was and still is that TS% is not a strong measurement of overall improvement. (Period). and from AHF's change to PER.. I believe he agrees but won't say so.

So I "forced" you to post this?

While he may have improved his longrange shooting which means a lot more to PER and TS% fans, he has not improved his overall game in fact, his FG% is down and his ppg has gone down too. The stats that you guys quote rewards a player for going from being Kobe Bryant to being Reggie Miller.

and this joke of a post?

What I'm saying about TS% is that it's not a measure to be used to show improvement simply because of it's bais. Again. Improvement is what we were talking about. how does TS% show anything about improvement. For instance:

Zaza's TS% went from .515 in 2007-2008 to .571 in 2008-2009.

The only thing that happened to Zaza is that his FT% increase by about 6%. His PPG went up by 1 point, but his TS% was as dramatic as his FT%.

I guess i really do own you if i can force you to post what i want you to post.

Moreover, there's a reason why most people recognize ppg, rpg, and apg. Those are direct contributions to the team. If a player wants to improve, those are the places where most people look.

Then why did you bring up Marvin's .4% decline in FG% in the first place?

[Buzzard]

Wow, you are a pilliar of Logic. " I don't want fans of the team to be put off by a negative Marvin thread, so let's make a Negative Marvin Forum"?

:help wanted3:

Bottom line, the reason why these topics get coverage is because there's a lot of truth to it. It's just a shame that anybody who mentions anything about Marvin gets jumped on by the Marvin protection force. Even this thread. Marvin's very own words.. Not taken out of context... not misquoted.. He said that he doesn't want to change anything he's doing.... although it's obvious that he's not an aggressive player. Still, it has been diluted by the MPF to a discussion on FG% vs. TS%.... That's what normally happens here when the name Marvin is whispered and it's not a buttkiss post.

It is obvious you love to aurgue about and hate on Marvin; otherwise why not do a similar thread about Smooves' obvious statistical drops in FT%, PPG, RPG, and BPG? Marvins nor Smooves statistical drops correlate to more losses last year Diesel.

Marvin does not call for the ball; big deal! Maybe you forgot but we won more games last season Diesel.

[MaceCase]

It is obvious you love to aurgue about and hate on Marvin; otherwise why not do a similar thread about Smooves' obvious statistical drops in FT%, PPG, RPG, and BPG? Marvins nor Smooves statistical drops correlate to more losses last year Diesel.

Marvin does not call for the ball; big deal! Maybe you forgot but we won more games last season Diesel.

I'll answer that for him. *ahem*

"Smoove's aggressiveness has more bearing on wins than any statistical category because he chose to shoot less threes and drive to the cup"

[Diesel]

So what exactly does correlate to us winning more games? Marvin calling for the ball more? Kind if insignficant to me since we have won more games every year Marvin has been on the team; without him calling for the ball more. You say but do not prove that he does not want to improve for that one reason. Yet he has improved in at least three major categories every year he has played; and almost never calls for the ball. I do not see any logic behind this thread or aurgument at all.

I'm talking about contribution to the team. Points, Rebounds, and Assists are very significant ways to improve our chances for winning a game.

I listened to Marvin say that he is not going to change anything that he has been doing. Last I checked, Marvin was a player that waited on the baseline and perimeter for somebody to create the offense for him. Also, he watched others come in and take a more contributory role in our offense (Flip) than he. IN the midst of doing that, his ppgs went down. This year, Marvin is saying that he's not going to do anything different. That paired with the fact that we just picked up a volume scorer who can create for himself. I want to see the talk on this board when Marvin is the most efficient 10 ppg player in the league. Then maybe some will see that insignificant improvements that do not contribute to ppg, rpg, and apg will not really mean anything to our team's winning and losing.

[Diesel]

It is obvious you love to aurgue about and hate on Marvin; otherwise why not do a similar thread about Smooves' obvious statistical drops in FT%, PPG, RPG, and BPG? Marvins nor Smooves statistical drops correlate to more losses last year Diesel.

Marvin does not call for the ball; big deal! Maybe you forgot but we won more games last season Diesel.

Let me ask you something Buzzard...

Have I ever defended Smoove?

Have I ever said that Smoove doesn't need to tone down his outside shooting?

Have I ever said that Smoove shouldn't focus on driving to the rim??

If you look over what I have said about Smoove, I'm as critical with him as with Marvin.... Because I have said that Smoove shouldn't shoot threes. Smoove should work on his driving to the basket. Smoove should work out with a big man or go to a big man's camp so that he can develop an inside game or inside moves... Theses are things I have said.

When I use the same tone with and about what Marvin should do... Immediately I'm a Marvin hater.... Immediately.... IN fact, as you have proceeded to show, you don't pay attention to anything else except what is posted about Marvin....

:magnifier:

[exodus]

I want to see the talk on this board when Marvin is the most efficient 10 ppg player in the league.

We used to have a guy just like that. His name was Josh Childress. In his second season he averaged 10 ppg with a TS% 62.6, better than any wingman in the league by far. You should remember since you were his biggest fan.

[Diesel]

We used to have a guy just like that. His name was Josh Childress. In his second season he averaged 10 ppg with a TS% 62.6, better than any wingman in the league by far. You should remember since you were his biggest fan.

Oh yeah, I remember him... Didn't you have a hate campaign against him?

I remember you arguing against his TS%s.... Funny. I guess you flip flop to fit the argument.

[Peoriabird]

If you look over what I have said about Smoove, I'm as critical with him as with Marvin....

:magnifier:

You truly are Delusional!

[exodus]

Oh yeah, I remember him... Didn't you have a hate campaign against him?

I remember you arguing against his TS%s.... Funny. I guess you flip flop to fit the argument.

As usual your memory is bad. I argued against him for many reasons.

-his inability to defend any position

-his inability to create for himself offensively

-his inability to score outside of 5 feet

-his cherry picking

-his slowness getting back on defense.

His efficiency was the only thing he had going for him and you loved him for it. You used to use that all the time to make him look better than Marvin.

Edited October 13, 2009 by exodus

[AHF]

So does the fact that you're using PER means that TS% is useless in determining his effect for the team??

You realize that PER includes TS% as a factor, right? Your statement is like saying....

"So the fact that you are using points scored in a game means that points scored in the first half is useless in determining who wins?"

You can do better than this argument.

Back to PER. Marvin's PER went from 14.5 to 16. The league average is 15. So what exactly does this mean. HE went from slightly under average to a little over average. However, more specifically, it means that his three pointers improved. Great. However, how does that help the team?

How does improving your PER more than 10% help your team? You are kidding, right? It helps the team when you increase your rebounding, increase your scoring efficiency, increase your defensive presence, put up the best FT/TO ratio in the entire league, etc.

Bottom line:

He contributed 14.8 ppg in 2007-2008.. and he contributed 13.9 ppg in 2008-2009.

He contributed 5.7 rpg in 2007-2008 and he contributed 6.3 rpg in 2008-2009.

He contributed 1.7 apg in 2007-2008 and he contributed 1.3 apg in 2008-2009.

So overall, did he improve.. I have to say Not really. Not as far as the team is concerned.

You guys want to talk about improvement and ignore team contribution.

He improved by nearly every statistical measure other than usage rate. If you can't get over the fact that he and Josh Smith got fewer touches last season, then go ahead and throw them both under a bus. I will respectfully disagree with that conclusion.

Marvin improved. The team improved. He is a building block for our team.

That is the bottomline.

Edited October 14, 2009 by AHF

[MaceCase]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY5DbN1riWQ

Couldn't resist AHF

[Buzzard]

Let me ask you something Buzzard...

Have I ever defended Smoove?

Have I ever said that Smoove doesn't need to tone down his outside shooting?

Have I ever said that Smoove shouldn't focus on driving to the rim??

If you look over what I have said about Smoove, I'm as critical with him as with Marvin.... Because I have said that Smoove shouldn't shoot threes. Smoove should work on his driving to the basket. Smoove should work out with a big man or go to a big man's camp so that he can develop an inside game or inside moves... Theses are things I have said.

When I use the same tone with and about what Marvin should do... Immediately I'm a Marvin hater.... Immediately.... IN fact, as you have proceeded to show, you don't pay attention to anything else except what is posted about Marvin....

:magnifier:

Hating is the opposite of defending; not the same thing. Now to get on track here:

Go find me a post which you started that said anything to the fact that Smoove should be flamed (hated on), traded for a lack of improvement (hated on) or benched for a lack of improvement (hated on). I bet if you can find any at all; you will be able to count them on one hand where as with Marvin, a CPA would have a hard time keeping up with all of them.

If you really think Marvins' season showed a lack of improvement; Smooves from the same statistical standpoint is off the charts. Now go find the above mentioned hate ones you started about Smoove; I will be waiting I am sure for a very long time.

[Diesel]

You realize that PER includes TS% as a factor, right? Your statement is like saying....

"So the fact that you are using points scored in a game means that points scored in the first half is useless in determining who wins?"

You can do better than this argument.

I took a look at your BOTTOM LINE and far be it for me to challenge the great AHF... But NO.. I didn't know that TS% was a part of PER.. and aside from you trying to save face, I don't see how you would automatically know that being that this is what I have found on PER...

The Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is a per-minute rating developed by ESPN.com columnist John Hollinger. In John's words, "The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance." It appears from his books that John's database only goes back to the 1988-89 season. I decided to expand on John's work and calculate PER for all players since minutes played were first recorded (1951-52).

All calculations begin with what I am calling unadjusted PER (uPER). The formula is:

uPER = (1 / MP) *

[ 3P

+ (2/3) * AST

+ (2 - factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG

+ (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 - (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))

- VOP * TOV

- VOP * DRB% * (FGA - FG)

- VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA - FT)

+ VOP * (1 - DRB%) * (TRB - ORB)

+ VOP * DRB% * ORB

+ VOP * STL

+ VOP * DRB% * BLK

- PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) - 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]

Most of the terms in the formula above should be clear, but let me define the less obvious ones:

factor = (2 / 3) - (0.5 * (lg_AST / lg_FG)) / (2 * (lg_FG / lg_FT))

VOP = lg_PTS / (lg_FGA - lg_ORB + lg_TOV + 0.44 * lg_FTA)

DRB% = (lg_TRB - lg_ORB) / lg_TRB

I am not going to go into details about what each component of the PER is measuring; that's why John writes and sells

In another place I found this...

IF it pleases you you may talk about the obviousness of TS% in those calculations and if it will make you feel STONE COLD, you can even try to insult my math skills for not seeing TS% here. However, I own up to not being able to see TS% here and until you can describe it to me as being "Obvious" I will say that you're full of it.

[Diesel]

Hating is the opposite of defending; not the same thing. Now to get on track here:

Go find me a post which you started that said anything to the fact that Smoove should be flamed (hated on), traded for a lack of improvement (hated on) or benched for a lack of improvement (hated on). I bet if you can find any at all; you will be able to count them on one hand where as with Marvin, a CPA would have a hard time keeping up with all of them.

If you really think Marvins' season showed a lack of improvement; Smooves from the same statistical standpoint is off the charts. Now go find the above mentioned hate ones you started about Smoove; I will be waiting I am sure for a very long time.

You can find several instances where I have made comments about Smoove needing to improve. Your requirement that it be a post that I start and secondly that it be more than 1 hands worth is silly. The point is that once again, you and a select few others are defending Marvin in a circumstance that you would never defend any other Hawk about. Guarantee when I said those things about Smoove, weather I started the post or not.. YOU SAID NOTHING. In fact, you might have even uttered a ME TOO. However, same type of discussion on Marvin gets your life long defense to the death... Why is that Buzzard?