Woodson, Marvin, Horford, and Our Offensive System

[AHF]

Woodson has publicly made comments over the last few days about getting Marvin and Horford more shots and more scoring opportunities this year. I found this interesting because it has been my contention for some time that those are the two players most hurt by our iso "system" on offense. Both are offensively team-first players who won't break from their role to generate more scoring and our system does very little for them compared to what I could envision from them in a what I would consider to be a true offensive system that uses pick and roll, screens, motion, etc. on offense to create shot opportunities. For that matter, comments have also been made about this team being more uptempo.

I am curious whether Woodson will actually do what he is claiming he will do in terms of getting Marvin and Horford more involved offensively (and possibly going more uptempo). To me, the answer is "probably not" because I don't think their roles change without a change to our system - particularly with the addition of a high volume, iso scorer in Crawford. I don't believe Woodson has any real intent to change his offensive system, but I am happy to be proven wrong on this.

I am curious whether others think (a) Horford and Marvin are likely to take on more prominent roles in the offense without a significant change to the system and (b) whether Woodson is likely to make such a change. Of course, regardless of what we think the proof will be in the pudding as far as our coaching strategy goes but I think the recent comments raise this as a legit issue for discussion.

Thoughts?

[Buzzard]

Woodson has publicly made comments over the last few days about getting Marvin and Horford more shots and more scoring opportunities this year. I found this interesting because it has been my contention for some time that those are the two players most hurt by our iso "system" on offense. Both are offensively team-first players who won't break from their role to generate more scoring and our system does very little for them compared to what I could envision from them in a what I would consider to be a true offensive system that uses pick and roll, screens, motion, etc. on offense to create shot opportunities. For that matter, comments have also been made about this team being more uptempo.

I am curious whether Woodson will actually do what he is claiming he will do in terms of getting Marvin and Horford more involved offensively (and possibly going more uptempo). To me, the answer is "probably not" because I don't think their roles change without a change to our system - particularly with the addition of a high volume, iso scorer in Crawford. I don't believe Woodson has any real intent to change his offensive system, but I am happy to be proven wrong on this.

I am curious whether others think (a) Horford and Marvin are likely to take on more prominent roles in the offense without a significant change to the system and (b) whether Woodson is likely to make such a change. Of course, regardless of what we think the proof will be in the pudding as far as our coaching strategy goes but I think the recent comments raise this as a legit issue for discussion.

Thoughts?

Woody can do this. ISO's, clear outs, along with pick and rolls are easy enough and can be run with Marvin and/or Horf. Kicks outs are dependent on the guards ability and our scheme. I think the question is will he; no doubt in my mind him and his staff know how.

To answer your question, I think he will try; but him and JJ being on the same page is key. A sulking JJ is not a good thing and hopefully he does not sulk if his shots and minutes decrease in a contract year.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Buzzard

[exodus]

I don't think Woody will do anything to get Marvin and Horford more looks. If they want more shots it will be up to them to get them on their own. It will be much easier for Horford to get more shots since he is basically unguarded when he is 18 feet from the basket.

[Buzzard]

I don't think Woody will do anything to get Marvin and Horford more looks. If they want more shots it will be up to them to get them on their own. It will be much easier for Horford to get more shots since he is basically unguarded when he is 18 feet from the basket.

I really hope you are wrong. Our overall improvement from these two players is key to our success. If Woody does not get it done; he will be looking for a job next season.

[MaceCase]

Well I have noticed that Marvin has been allowed to handle the ball more, not sure by design or just his own volition but he has been given an ISO or two of his own outside of the block where he would usually receive those opportunities in previous seasons. Horf seems to be getting his opportunities through jumpshots, which aren't falling as of now, which leads me to believe that he will continue to work the high post while Josh works the low.

[High5]

Woodson has given me no reason to believe he's capable of doing anything for our offense. Plays more complex than Iso Joe are too complicated.

[jerrywest]

Woodson has publicly made comments over the last few days about getting Marvin and Horford more shots and more scoring opportunities this year. I found this interesting because it has been my contention for some time that those are the two players most hurt by our iso "system" on offense. Both are offensively team-first players who won't break from their role to generate more scoring and our system does very little for them compared to what I could envision from them in a what I would consider to be a true offensive system that uses pick and roll, screens, motion, etc. on offense to create shot opportunities. For that matter, comments have also been made about this team being more uptempo.

I am curious whether Woodson will actually do what he is claiming he will do in terms of getting Marvin and Horford more involved offensively (and possibly going more uptempo). To me, the answer is "probably not" because I don't think their roles change without a change to our system - particularly with the addition of a high volume, iso scorer in Crawford. I don't believe Woodson has any real intent to change his offensive system, but I am happy to be proven wrong on this.

I am curious whether others think (a) Horford and Marvin are likely to take on more prominent roles in the offense without a significant change to the system and (b) whether Woodson is likely to make such a change. Of course, regardless of what we think the proof will be in the pudding as far as our coaching strategy goes but I think the recent comments raise this as a legit issue for discussion.

Thoughts?

Nice post. Reminds me of the Celtics series where Woody said he will give Acie more opportunities after Acie played great in a win. Obviously he forgot in the next game and let Bibby stink up the joint.

[niremetal]

Well I have noticed that Marvin has been allowed to handle the ball more, not sure by design or just his own volition but he has been given an ISO or two of his own outside of the block where he would usually receive those opportunities in previous seasons. Horf seems to be getting his opportunities through jumpshots, which aren't falling as of now, which leads me to believe that he will continue to work the high post while Josh works the low.

If that's a sign of things to come, color me unimpressed. Adding a few ISO Marvin's and Horford mid-range shots won't move the needle much for the Hawks' offense when it counts. The problem with ISO plays is that they by definition entail little-to-no ball movement and little-to-no off-ball movement. That makes the play ridiculously easy for an opposing team to defend (unless the guy handling the ball is named "Kobe" or "LeBron") because you can afford to double the guy with the ball and not worry much about the others when those others are 15+ feet from the ball and not moving. Simply changing the isolated player won't do much for too long in terms of breaking down opposing defenses. It will get Marvin a few more points, but that should be a means to an end rather than an end in and of itself.

As for Horford shooting mid-range jumpers...well, I like that slightly more than Josh chucking 3s, but that ain't saying much. Unless Horford starts hitting them with the consistency of Ilgauskas, that won't do much either.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think we have to be real about some things, when it comes to Marvin and Horford. Like Exodus said, Marvin and Horford getting more touches will probably have to be of their own doing. That means doing MORE of what their strength is . . at a higher efficiency level.

For Horford, this means grabbing more offensive rebounds.

If he does that, it'll give him more opportunities to put the ball back in the hole or get fouled and go to the FT line. We all know that Horford is undersized at center. And while he CAN play center at a decent level, we all know that PF is the spot where he can most likely reach his maximum potential. And because we're not benching Smoove to play Horford at PF, he has no choice but to scrap harder for his points.

It's either that, or become like Amare, with a real good 15 - 20 foot jumper.

As for Marvin, his strength is jumpshooting. So the easy solution for him, is to become a better one.

Yes, Marvin added the 3-ball,which is great. But as my Northcyde Jump Shot Index pointed out over the summer, his jump shooting overall was somewhat inconsistent, bordering on highly inconsistent. So the truth is that Marvin isn't knocking down enough of his wide open shots, in his current role in the offense. From 3 point range, Marvin shot over 40% on the road, but under 30% at home. So just in that right there, if he gets his home 3FG% up, that'll make a difference.

And he could also help himself , if he improved his offensive rebounding.

Both guys can help themselves by doing what they do best . . . a little better.

Does that mean the offense needs to stay the same? No. But I also don't want a situation in which we're force-feeding the ball to them, and expecting them to make something happen offensively. Get the ball to them in the right spots, to give them the best chance of scoring.

Don't toss it into Horford down on the block, if he has a center on him that's 40 lbs bigger and 2 inches taller. Don't run an ISO play for Marvin, if he has a guy like Ron Artest guarding him. Be smart about when you get them the ball.

Also remember this . . . it's not like these 2 have ever been prolific scorers on any level of basketball. Marvin was a complimentary 6th man type, while Horford was in a balanced scoring type offense, in which he may or may not get a lot of shots per game.

So to me, it's more about improving their efficiency, hustle, and shooting overall, which in turn, should improve their point production and value in the offense.

[jy23]

all in all we have a very balanced offense/team so i agree with north in that we should just hope that these guys just continue to improve on what it is they do best. Our offense isn't ran in a way that really benefits the players that we have and its been this way so long that I don't really think any of us should expect a change now, Woody is what he is. we should really be looking for our guys to be more efficient like what we got out of marv and horf last year, marv added the 3 ball and horf up his fg% and apg n dropped his turnover per game. If these guys can continue to do little things like that I'm happy. I don't expect to see them do alot more on the offensive end bc of the other weapons that we have added, craw just gives woody another excuse to not do anything on offense.

[DrReality]

I'm afraid is that it will be more difficult to get them their shots with Crawford on the team. But if they would spread it around the team could be a lot more dynamic.

[DrReality]

The beautiful thing about it is that we have so many more options than last year and when JJ's iso isn't working we can go to a plan B or when he starts to get worn out.

Bibby may be able to have some influence in this too because he has been a coach on the floor and run the offense more at times.