Marvin Williams vs. Tayshun Prince.

[MaceCase]

I think that wishful. Marvin just doesn't do any one thing so good that we have to allow him to do that. For instance, he's not really a consistent scorer. He's not the best defender. He's not a great rebounding Sf. He can do those things, but not as a specialty. It was known that Prince is a Bowen like defender who doesn't always show up in the stats, but he is a lockdown defender on his man. Hence, he has four all defensive team appearances. He is also a good passer and a decent shooter from outside (he hoovers close to 40% which is where good 3 pt shooters starts). I agree with you when you say that Detroit (through 3 coaches) knows how to use him. However, Marvin hasn't shown anything to make you say.. Hey, he's our ----. He's not really a lockdown defender, he's just a guy who stays in front of his man and doesn't take chances. He's not a consistent scorer... He's a guy who I say benefits from playing on a team with good scorers. The 4th option for a player who can shoot is a great place. I was watching highlights of Joe play in the last game. If Marvin had a stop and pop, he'd be dangerous. If Marvin took chances on offense, he'd be dangerous.

You brought up a comparison, a case was made in favor of one side and your only recourse, again, is to walk on the side of opinion.

For instance, he's not really a consistent scorer

Apparently Marvin is a far more consistent scorer as a 4th option than the 3rd option Prince.

He's not a great rebounding Sf

Apparently Marvin is a greater rebounding SF than Prince is

It was known that Prince is a Bowen like defender who doesn't always show up in the stats

Wrong again, the statistical measure which has always saved Bruce Bowen and even our newest Hawk member, Jason Collins, throughout their careers has always been the +/- measure be it raw, adjusted or whatever. They have always succeeded in this measure along with Prince thus why I referenced it in the first place because it is a measure to help prove defense outside of usual defensive metrics such as Blocks, Steals, and Rebounds. According to it Prince in addition to putting out his worst defensive season was also worse than Marvin in doing so yet still garnered so many All Defense votes, me thinks someone was voted for on reputation alone not actual fact. *shocker*

(he hoovers close to 40% which is where good 3 pt shooters starts)

Here is one of the few statistical places where you can get a punch in but unfortunately for you it wasn't a very good one. Prince may have a better 3point% but unlike most "good 3point shooters" he seems to be far too selective with his attempts only taking 141 shots over an 82 game season while clocking in 37 minutes per contest. For comparison sake, Marvin in 21 games less attempted 155 to the average of 2.5 per game against the better shooter's average of 1.7 per game.

he's just a guy who stays in front of his man and doesn't take chances

If you are going to use that as a knock against Marvin then it's even more of a knock on Prince that he takes even less chances.

After all this I would still give Prince the defensive edge because it's my belief that the added offensive burdens is what hurt his defensive efficiency but Marvin is far and away the better offensive and overall weapon who just so happens to be adding defense to his repertoire. Add in age, salary and the fact the team is coming off it's first winning season in eons and I assure you the media and coaches will no longer underrate the abilities of our Hawks as you've come to notice many outside sources already lauding Marvin for his defense. But meh, they'll come to realize this looking from the outside far sooner than you will as an avid watcher. :lol6:

[Wurider05]

Tayshun Prince is a very overrated defender!!!

[Plainview1981]

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-hawks-blog/2009/10/15/i-know-its-just-preseason-but/?cxntfid=blogs_atlanta_hawks_blog

….But, Marvin still looks like Marvin. That’s not a bad thing. And yes, he appears to have worked on his handle just like he said he would. That spin move he showed off was nice (did Rod see that one? Heh!), and there have been some other plays (like the alley oop he threw down, and some other dunks). Last year, he got himself a three point shot. There is no denying the guy has added elements to his game over the years. Yet there seems to be no surge. He still puts up 13-14 points per game. No one has stepped up alongside Joe Johnson as a bonafide, consistent upper level scoring threat, making guys like Flip Murray (and now Jamal Crawford) an absolute necessity. And it is probably preferable that such a threat come from somewhere in the frontcourt. Marvin seems to have the tools, but lacks the fire. Of course, it’s not just that. For this to work though, Woody has to run plays for Marvin, Joe has to get on him/encourage him with dilligence, and Marvin….well, Marvin has to want it. Otherwise, he’s going to remain a great role player, and the third/fourth/maybe even fifth option in the starting lineup.

Same old Marvin. Yeah, he might improve his ball handling and all that. But at the end of the day, he is probably near his max PRODUCTION wise.

[Buzzard]

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-hawks-blog/2009/10/15/i-know-its-just-preseason-but/?cxntfid=blogs_atlanta_hawks_blog

Same old Marvin. Yeah, he might improve his ball handling and all that. But at the end of the day, he is probably near his max PRODUCTION wise.

The same old Marvin is better than the same old Prince; which is what this debate is about. Since you see Marvin as having reached his peak at 24; surely you must feel the same way about Prince who is 29. This is exactly what they are saying on the Pistons board about the 29 yr old Prince; who is making 2 to 2.5 million more a year than Marvin.

Marvin is already a better overall player than Prince (carreer averages and career high avgs bear this out); he is playing for us on a cheaper contract, and we should see all that as a positive; not a negative. If he does improve his PPG (which I think he will) that just makes him that much better vs Prince, than he already is.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Buzzard

[Diesel]

Since you chose not to answer the point I made, I am assuming there is some growth in your understanding.

Since your above statement is a different claim, although it can be easily debunked, I chose to stay out of the debate.

Again, when you pick and choose your data, you can create any conclusion.

Your point is nothing but your poor opinion. I entered the fact hat HEAD COACHES said that Prince was one of the better defenders in the game (top 10) in the past 4 years and #11 last year while last year Marvin didn't rank. Your point is to try to bolster Marvin with some BS about him being able to defend 95% of players. That's BS that I don't even recognize. Can Marvin guard Monte Ellis or Jamal Crawford well? How about Dwayne Wade? All that Marvin seems to gaurd in our switching defense is Sfs and sometimes Pfs. He doesn't guard PGs. He doesn't guard SGs. Mioreover... what defense do you think Detroit has run for the past decade? The same one we run. With the switches. Jerry, you became invalid the moment you started to say that Prince being a better defender than Marvin is some sort of hype that I created in my own mind. FACTS are... 4 time 2nd team all defensive. What does Marvin have? ZILCH....

Tayshun Prince is a very overrated defender!!!

I would rather be overrated with Head coaches who have to game plan against me.. than to be overrated by a bunch of homer fans like Marvin is.

[jerrywest]

Prince being a better defender than Marvin is some sort of hype that I created in my own mind.

Making things up again.

I said Hollinger's stat is irrelevant because "Facts and figures don't matter in Diesel's mind."

Again you are missing the point. So far in their careers Prince has the reputation of guarding small forwards just about as good as anybody and certainly better than Marvin. However, Marvin has the strength and size to guard power forwards and centers when defense switches. Prince doesn't have the the strength for that. I'll give Prince a slight edge in guarding smaller players like the waterbugs you mentioned. However, this edge is getting smaller every year. Last year, Marvin did a great job guarding many point guards and shooting guards after defensive switches.

The point I made was you can put Marvin on 95% of the players and feel ok about that. You could put Stockton, one of the greatest defensive point guards ever, on about 20% of the players. You could put Prince on about 60% of players. That doesn't mean that I said Marvin's defense is better than Prince or Marvin's defense is better than Stockton's. Its just that his body allows him a greater range. You are mixing up what I said with what others said.

[Diesel]

Making things up again.

I said Hollinger's stat is irrelevant because "Facts and figures don't matter in Diesel's mind."

Again you are missing the point. So far in their careers Prince has the reputation of guarding small forwards just about as good as anybody and certainly better than Marvin. However, Marvin has the strength and size to guard power forwards and centers when defense switches. Prince doesn't have the the strength for that. I'll give Prince a slight edge in guarding smaller players like the waterbugs you mentioned. However, this edge is getting smaller every year. Last year, Marvin did a great job guarding many point guards and shooting guards after defensive switches.

The point I made was you can put Marvin on 95% of the players and feel ok about that. You could put Stockton, one of the greatest defensive point guards ever, on about 20% of the players. You could put Prince on about 60% of players. That doesn't mean that I said Marvin's defense is better than Prince or Marvin's defense is better than Stockton's. Its just that his body allows him a greater range. You are mixing up what I said with what others said.

Your point is still BS... YOU CANNOT Put Marvin on 95% of the players and feel OK???? What the hell are you smoking Jerry?? Marvin does not guard PGs, SGs, or Cs well. IF Marvin was 95% capable, he would have atleast gotten 1 vote for all team defensive.... But no head coach voted for Marvin. NONE.

Jerry, here you are guilty of making up some nonesense and passing it off as fact??!?! 95%? :lol6:

[jerrywest]

Your point is still BS... YOU CANNOT Put Marvin on 95% of the players and feel OK????

On defensive switches.

Even Dennis Rodman, one of the greatest defensive players ever, didn't guard Magic or Karim by design. However, he was fantastic, not just adequate, when he was switched to Magic or Karim. He could guard 100% of the players when defensive switches were made.

There is a difference.

(again in your mind you might think that I am comparing Rodman to Marvin. I am not)

I will let you say the last words if you want to.