I think we can take Orlando

[Buzzard]

Orlando plays in the NCAA? I did not know that.

Alston, Lee, and Turkoglu. Thats a decent amount of minutes leaving, and now they are also cramming in the minutes for Bass, Barnes, and VC. I guess you have the crystal ball over there and know exactly how this team is going to perform, so why bother waiting to see how they ACTUALLY play together? Lets just evaluate every team through NBA2K10? Because I am clearly the fool in taking a wait and see approach, you have all the answers.

I will spell it out for you...SouthEast divison Championship

I am way over video game age and don't play NBA2K10. Why don'y you wait and see how our Hawks are doing before proclaiming them capable of beating out the Eastern Conference Champs? You are a funny dude; its ok for you to have a crystal ball on a forum; but no one else is allowed to unless they agree with you? :help wanted3:

All childish BS aside, I will put my money where my crystal balls are concerning who wins the Southeast Division. How bout you?

Edited October 19, 2009 by Buzzard

[Buzzard]

Wow. You do understand what an acronym is, right?

I haven't made any predictions, I have said WAIT. I didn't claim the Hawks were winning the division, you aren't reading what I am telling you. You are go-go-go already deciding everything. I have patience, you don't. Thats not uncommon for this board, most posters are already deciding things about this season. Why not take some time and actually see how the Magic plays instead of attacking a voice of reason?

Its a simple thread and a simple fans opinion at that. Maybe you think this is some real serious stuff. I think it is fun and good way to read about my Hawks while living almost 500 miles away.

If I am wrong its not like I will lose my job or something. And if I am wrong, it will be one the greatest seasons in Hawks history; so please let me be wrong!

Edited October 20, 2009 by Buzzard

[Diesel]

The truth is that Vince showed signs of significant slowing on last year. I would love to see Orlando try to resurrect Vince and leave Pietrus on the bench. When it gets down to it, I think that Alston, Lee, and Hedo were better for that team than Vince will be. I suspect that trying to find Vince might stunt Howard's growth (as an offensive force) too.

[Buzzard]

The truth is that Vince showed signs of significant slowing on last year. I would love to see Orlando try to resurrect Vince and leave Pietrus on the bench. When it gets down to it, I think that Alston, Lee, and Hedo were better for that team than Vince will be. I suspect that trying to find Vince might stunt Howard's growth (as an offensive force) too.

I think its just wishfull thinking. Vince slowed down by scoring 20 ppg, 5.1 rpg, and having his 3rd highest apg average, 4.7, since he's been in the league; The two seasons before were his best 5.1 and 4.8. What we are missing here is Vince did that in only 36 mpg; and his role changed significantly with the loss of Kidd. Kidd better distributor vs Harris better scorer.

Barring injury, the only thing going to change is who he is playing for.

[thecampster]

I have to say I agree with Diesel on the premise of this post. I think we can challenge anyone this year. Anyone watching the preseason will see that the Hawks are just going through the motions and still laying a beat down on teams. They were very hobbled in the playoffs last year and that i think has skewed everyone's vision of this team.

I'm not fearing any team we might play this year. The only thing I fear is the injury bug. There are just too many offensive weapons right now on this team to endure any kind of losing streak. When you look at the team and count the number of players capable of a 20 point + game or 10+ boards and or capable for starting for another team it's a scary list. This is that list

Johnson

Crawford

Smoove

Williams

Horford

Bibby

Teague

Evans

Pachulia

Maybe Joe Smith

The Hawks have 9-10 guys that could start for other teams in the league. The secret to winning 50-60 games in this league is not having a superstar or great coach, it's having enough horses. Every team will endure injuries in a season. Look at the wizards when they lost Arenas....they were done. They had no one to step in and play acceptibly behind him. The Hawks are now a stacked roster that can afford to allow injured players to sit and heal. That goes way farther than having a top 10 guy. The only thing the Hawks have to fear is having 3 players injured in the play offs again like last year.

[Diesel]

I think its just wishfull thinking. Vince slowed down by scoring 20 ppg, 5.1 rpg, and having his 3rd highest apg average, 4.7, since he's been in the league; The two seasons before were his best 5.1 and 4.8. What we are missing here is Vince did that in only 36 mpg; and his role changed significantly with the loss of Kidd. Kidd better distributor vs Harris better scorer.

Barring injury, the only thing going to change is who he is playing for.

While that's true, his PPG went down and his FG% took a ~3% drop. He also shot more 3 pters than he did 2 pters (by far). That is because he became more secondary while Harris and Lopez became the offense. As good as Vince may be, I don't think he is good enough to replace Hedo/Lee in the offense. His age will begin to show playing with these guys who are as young as the team he just left.

[Plainview1981]

While that's true, his PPG went down and his FG% took a ~3% drop. He also shot more 3 pters than he did 2 pters (by far). That is because he became more secondary while Harris and Lopez became the offense. As good as Vince may be, I don't think he is good enough to replace Hedo/Lee in the offense. His age will begin to show playing with these guys who are as young as the team he just left.

Hedo only shot 41% last year. He wasn't all that last year.

[AHF]

Hedo only shot 41% last year. He wasn't all that last year.

That is why I am inclined to think that Orlando will win the division by a nice margin this season. Any team with a superstar big man has a big leg up on the competition in the NBA. Orlando is surrounding Dwight with enough talent and pieces that they are well ahead of the Hawks, IMO. Of course, hawksfanatic is right that what looks good on paper doesn't always translate onto the floor but the combination of elite big man surrounded by outstanding shooters is so fundamentally sound that I don't mind declaring Orlando the obvious frontrunner before the season starts.

[High5]

That is why I am inclined to think that Orlando will win the division by a nice margin this season. Any team with a superstar big man has a big leg up on the competition in the NBA. Orlando is surrounding Dwight with enough talent and pieces that they are well ahead of the Hawks, IMO. Of course, hawksfanatic is right that what looks good on paper doesn't always translate onto the floor but the combination of elite big man surrounded by outstanding shooters is so fundamentally sound that I don't mind declaring Orlando the obvious frontrunner before the season starts.

They have 8 guys (2 who can play PF) who can get scorching hot behind the 3pt line any given night in an offense that gives shooters an abundance of looks. Now they're better equipped for the nights when the shots aren't falling with Carter and Bass. Of course with so many great shooters those nights are few and far between. Obvious frontrunner indeed.

Edited October 20, 2009 by High5

[Duff_Man]

I don't see Vince Carter as a great addition to that Magic team. Yeah, the stats look good, but Vince is a me-first guy, whereas Hedo fit in with them perfectly. You can't just add stats to a lineup and assume it's going to work. I think there's a good chance that it backfires and they lose a few more games this year.

Along those same lines, I think Ben Gordon plus Charlie V equals a total disaster.

[Buzzard]

I don't see Vince Carter as a great addition to that Magic team. Yeah, the stats look good, but Vince is a me-first guy, whereas Hedo fit in with them perfectly. You can't just add stats to a lineup and assume it's going to work. I think there's a good chance that it backfires and they lose a few more games this year.

Along those same lines, I think Ben Gordon plus Charlie V equals a total disaster.

I think Vince just wants to win a championship and this is easily his best chance with Howard. I never heard him complain once Kidd then Jefferson were traded; which indicates to me there is a big difference between a 22 yr old Carter and a 32 yr old Carter. I think Jason Kidd had a huge impact on Carter. He can play with or without the ball and is a nice setup man. You cannot ignore Vince on defense; he is a great addition IMO and will free up every player on that team.

Ben Gordan and Charlie V are just not comparable to Vince Carter. Like trying to compare Nique To Marvin Williams.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Buzzard

[AHF]

I don't see Vince Carter as a great addition to that Magic team. Yeah, the stats look good, but Vince is a me-first guy, whereas Hedo fit in with them perfectly. You can't just add stats to a lineup and assume it's going to work. I think there's a good chance that it backfires and they lose a few more games this year.

Along those same lines, I think Ben Gordon plus Charlie V equals a total disaster.

I don't agree on Vince and Hedo but I totally agree with Ben Gordon and Charlie V. If I am a Pistons fan I am saying, "we gave away Chauncey Billups for ****ing Gordon and Villanueva?!?!?!"

[Diesel]

Hedo only shot 41% last year. He wasn't all that last year.

The FG% isn't what matters. Hedo is a 6'10 team guy. When you put Hedo and Lewis at the forward positions, you give other teams trouble because now you have 2 guys at the 3 and 4 position who can shoot from outside. Then there was courtney Lee.. who played his position in a way that allowed the offense to flourish... and he was a 45% shooter and about 40% from 3. I just don't see Vince as bringing as much as those guys brought...

[Diesel]

You can't just add stats to a lineup and assume it's going to work.

Can anybody say Big Dog, JT, Shareef, and Theo??

[Diesel]

I don't agree on Vince and Hedo but I totally agree with Ben Gordon and Charlie V. If I am a Pistons fan I am saying, "we gave away Chauncey Billups for ****ing Gordon and Villanueva?!?!?!"

I like the pistons and I disagree.

Chauncey was given away because of age and contract and the fact that he was hindering the growth of Stuckey. I don't believe much in Stuckey, but to say that there's no benefit in getting Gordon is missing something. Gordon is a beast. Charlie V. is a good offensive player. Give them about a month to find their rotations. I suspect that there might be a trade, but Stuckey, Gordon, Rip is going to be hard to contain.

[AHF]

I like the pistons and I disagree.

Chauncey was given away because of age and contract and the fact that he was hindering the growth of Stuckey. I don't believe much in Stuckey, but to say that there's no benefit in getting Gordon is missing something. Gordon is a beast. Charlie V. is a good offensive player. Give them about a month to find their rotations. I suspect that there might be a trade, but Stuckey, Gordon, Rip is going to be hard to contain.

I see both Gordon and Villanueva as excellent scorers who bring almost nothing else to the table - not defense, not playmaking, not rebounding, etc. I think they will prove they weren't worth the money that was invested in them in the long run. They are complimentary pieces (especially Charlie), not cornerstones for a team. When you ditch Billups to free up cap space, you better get a cornerstone and they instead tied themselves to mediocrity.

[Buzzard]

Can anybody say Big Dog, JT, Shareef, and Theo??

Not even in the same ballpark as just adding one vet to a conference champion.

Big Dog was complaining right up until he was traded. Have not heard a negative word fron Vince in years; despite Kidd and Jefferson, 2/3 of their playoff core, being traded away right out from under him.

Theo, this was such a bad trade. He was never the same after his injury.

JT, good player and has shown he can be a team player with age. Vince will be the same way only better.

Shareef, a good offensive weapon but needed defensive help. Theo was not the answer.

Here is the real question. Go find me a conference champion that fell on their *ss after replacing a non all star starter with a starting all star on their roster. This trade has as a good a chance of helping Orlando as Gasol did in helping the Lakers.

My reasoning is simple. The Lakers ended up with a second option that was just as good as letting Kobe shoot. Now Orlando has Vince to be the second option to Howard and Rashard as a rock solid 3d. Its a solid addition man. They still may not beat the Lakers if they meet for the title again; but this team will make a better showing against them if they do.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Buzzard

[Plainview1981]

The FG% isn't what matters. Hedo is a 6'10 team guy. When you put Hedo and Lewis at the forward positions, you give other teams trouble because now you have 2 guys at the 3 and 4 position who can shoot from outside. Then there was courtney Lee.. who played his position in a way that allowed the offense to flourish... and he was a 45% shooter and about 40% from 3. I just don't see Vince as bringing as much as those guys brought...

Hedo is a good player, but he's also done peaked. I doubt he will ever be what he was 2 years ago. Yeah, he's tall.... But he's also fairly soft.

[MaceCase]

Healthy Nelson, Carter, Barnes, Bass > Alston, Lee, Hedo, Battie

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL . . homerism is a wonderful thing sometimes. Because the same people that are saying that Vince won't fit in well in Orlando, ( or is on the decline ), are the same people who flat out believe in Jamal Crawford and what he could do for the Hawks.

Incredible.

Isn't Vince the same dude that has been KILLING THE HAWKS ever since God knows how long? How many game winning shots has that cat hit against us in recent years?

3?

4?

And Vince isn't even the reason why the Hawks won't overtake Orlando. The reason is the MONSTER IN THE MIDDLE.

With Orlando, it's choose your method of death. Do you want to die a slow death by Howard, fouling all of your frontline guys out, and he scoring 25 pts ( 10 from the FT line ), grabbing 18 rebs . . . or do you want to die a quick death, by constantly doubling Howard, but always leaving a shooter open?

Isn't this how they beat people?

The problem is that most teams don't even have frontline guys who can slow down Howard, let alone stop him. And if you can't stop him ( especially on the offensive boards ) a team has virtually no chance in beating the Magic.

So you're forced to double, and hope and pray that guys like Jameer Nelson ( the #1 jumpshooter on the Northcyde Jump Shot Index - NJSI last season ), Lewis, Pietrus, Carter, and now Ryan Anderson ( who has made 18 threes in preseason ) have an off game from outside. Even add JJ Redick to that mix, for spot minutes.

If not, you're done.

So the question is . . who are we going to put on Howard ( to guard one on one ), to prevent the shooters from killing us?

Horford? . . Smoove? . . Zaza? . . Joe Smith? . .

Oh I know . . we can trot out Collins ( our old Chevy ) and Siler ( whose nickname should be "Molasses" Siler, because he's slow as hell ).

Better yet, which one of those guys can get Howard in foul trouble? Maybe Smoove, but that'll require him to constantly challenge Howard in the paint, and not settle for jumpers.

I mean dang folks. Why do you think the Lakers beat the Magic? Because they had big athletic guys ( Bynum, Odom, Gasol ) that they could throw at Howard, while pretty much staying with their shooters. And because the Magic didn't have real good off the dribble shot creators, the shooters shot poorly . . and the Magic lost.

That's why all of the contending or close to contending teams were trying to make deals to add big men to their roster. Cleveland and Boston don't go get Shaq and Rasheed Wallace, if it wasn't for what Orlando and the Lakers bring to the table.

Which brings us to Vince.

Because he's the type of shot creator that Orlando needed last year. Hedo got traded because he couldn't effectively do it ( outside of the game winning shots he hit ). They have the big man. They just needed the reliable shot creator.

The value of Vince:

- he becomes their "go-to guy" at the end of games

- he becomes one of the best playmakers and passers on the team

- he can create his own jumpshot at anytime and from anywhere

- he can shoot the 3

- he can rebound decently for a guard

- he plays passing lanes decent

- he gets to the FT line and can make his FTs

If Vince were a Hawk, instead of Crawford, people would be talking NBA title around here. So why diss the man just because he plays for the enemy? Vince is better than Crawford, and damn near on JJ's level as a SG. He's still easily a top 10 SG in this league.

Vince will either do one or two things this year:

- he'll either lead that team in scoring, seeing that Dwight still isn't a finished product offensively

- or lead that team in assist, because Carter is NOT a selfish player and has never played with a dominant offensive big man.

The key to us overtaking Orlando, is for either Horford to become a top 3 rebounder in the league ( preferably over 12 game ). . or for Josh Smith to be a 10+ a game rebounder, along with a Defensive POY top 3 candidate . . or possibly BOTH.

Otherwise, we're not overtaking Orlando, barring multiple injuries to their squad, or a significant injury to Howard.

Edited October 21, 2009 by northcyde