Is the Magic's Ryan Anderson better than Horford?

[High5]

Speights had a higher PER than Horford last year as well as a rookie.

So when a stat gets discredited (unless you believe Speights is the 7th best player in the NBA) you choose to use it again? Interesting...

[exodus]

So when a stat gets discredited (unless you believe Speights is the 7th best player in the NBA) you choose to use it again? Interesting...

I fail to see how you discredited the stat. Go post a Horford for Speights trade on a Philly board. You might be surprised at the results. There are Philly fans who think he will be the best big man from that draft.

Sure 7 games is a small sample size but he is averaging 13.5 ppg shooting 64% from the field in only 22 minutes. He also shoots 85% from the foul line. The only way Horford could put up numbers like that would be if he was dreaming.

[High5]

I fail to see how you discredited the stat. Go post a Horford for Speights trade on a Philly board. You might be surprised at the results. There are Philly fans who think he will be the best big man from that draft.

Sure 7 games is a small sample size but he is averaging 13.5 ppg shooting 64% from the field in only 22 minutes. He also shoots 85% from the foul line. The only way Horford could put up numbers like that would be if he was dreaming.

I should have said I discredited your usage of the stat. It's only been 6/7 games and Anderson plays 9 less minutes in a much easier situation than Horford. The fact that he has a higher PER means very little. As far as Speights, whether or not you think he's better than Horford doesn't really pertain to Horford vs. Anderson. I just used his PER to show you that the stat requires a little more thought than "Oh, his number is higher than his number, that must mean he's better."

[exodus]

I should have said I discredited your usage of the stat. It's only been 6/7 games and Anderson plays 9 less minutes in a much easier situation than Horford. The fact that he has a higher PER means very little. As far as Speights, whether or not you think he's better than Horford doesn't really pertain to Horford vs. Anderson. I just used his PER to show you that the stat requires a little more thought than "Oh, his number is higher than his number, that must mean he's better."

Which is why i have used last season's numbers for Speights and Anderson in addition to this years numbers. Speights can score far better than Horford which he showed last season and early this season. It is not debatable.

I fail to see how Anderson is in an easier situation. he is in his second year playing for a new team that just made the Finals which obviously increases the pressure to perform well. He has to learn a completely new system and got forced into the starting lineup due to injuries. Horford is in his 3rd season on the same team playing the same role.

I guess Anderson is in an easier situation just because you say so.

[High5]

Which is why i have used last season's numbers for Speights and Anderson in addition to this years numbers. Speights can score far better than Horford which he showed last season and early this season. It is not debatable.

I fail to see how Anderson is in an easier situation. he is in his second year playing for a new team that just made the Finals which obviously increases the pressure to perform well. He has to learn a completely new system and got forced into the starting lineup due to injuries. Horford is in his 3rd season on the same team playing the same role.

I guess Anderson is in an easier situation just because you say so.

You don't see how Anderson, a 3pt shooter at PF playing next to Dwight Howard, has an easier time than Horford? Really? I see you're still as blind as ever when it comes to Horford. Whatever, keep misusing PER and logic.

[exodus]

You don't see how Anderson, a 3pt shooter at PF playing next to Dwight Howard, has an easier time than Horford? Really? I see you're still as blind as ever when it comes to Horford. Whatever, keep misusing PER and logic.

Yeah I am sure that it is a lot easier to get rebounds next to Dwight Howard than Josh Smith. I am sure it is a lot easier to get minutes on a championship team. I am sure it is a lot easier to play in a brand new system than playing in a system you have been in for 3 years.

Talk about faulty logic.

[HawkFoLife]

Yeah I am sure that it is a lot easier to get rebounds next to Dwight Howard than Josh Smith. I am sure it is a lot easier to get minutes on a championship team. I am sure it is a lot easier to play in a brand new system than playing in a system you have been in for 3 years.

Talk about faulty logic.

Umm you don't mind if i chime in here. You do know the only reason Anderson is playing so much is because of the absence of Lewis & Carter right?? Don't act like he's their 2nd option over those guys. Howard off the double team kicks it out to (insert name here) :go ahead: What's so hard to learn about that system?? Simply put, i use this as transitive property so to speak: If the players switched teams, what are your opinions of said teams fortunes the rest of the way?? Your answer should settle this dispute.

[exodus]

Umm you don't mind if i chime in here. You do know the only reason Anderson is playing so much is because of the absence of Lewis & Carter right?? Don't act like he's their 2nd option over those guys. Howard off the double team kicks it out to (insert name here) :go ahead: What's so hard to learn about that system?? Simply put, i use this as transitive property so to speak: If the players switched teams, what are your opinions of said teams fortunes the rest of the way?? Your answer should settle this dispute.

You do realized there are two sides to a basketball court right? or maybe you think Anderson doesn't make it past halfcourt when the Magic go back on D. It isn't like Horford does much on offense anyway.

Horford on Orlando woudln't see the floor much. He won't get time at center because Howard and Gortat are both better there than he is. he can't play the 3 like Anderson. he would compete with Bass and Lewis for minutes at the 4.

Sure the only reason Anderson starts at the 4 now is because Lewis is out. However the same would be true of Horford. he wouldn't fit there since he can't spread the floor. His minutes and numbers would drop considerably.

Orlando would be a title contender with or without Anderson/Horford assuming everyone else is relatively healthy.

Edited November 10, 2009 by exodus

[AHF]

If Horford is on Orlando in place of Anderson, I see them running the following scary starting lineup:

Nelson

Carter

Lewis

Horford

Howard

That team would be scary.

[exodus]

If Horford is on Orlando in place of Anderson, I see them running the following scary starting lineup:

Nelson

Carter

Lewis

Horford

Howard

That team would be scary.

The problem with that lineup is that Howard becomes much easier to guard. Horford's man can easily double Howard at any time. They can just leave Horford wide open from 15 feet and force him to make jumpers.

[AHF]

The problem with that lineup is that Howard becomes much easier to guard. Horford's man can easily double Howard at any time. They can just leave Horford wide open from 15 feet and force him to make jumpers.

That isn't much of a problem if you have a decent coach, IMO. Al Horford could score against PFs who leave him wide open both with his decent jumper and penetrating in closer with no one guarding him. I don't think Horford is well utilized in our system or that he would be a detriment to a guy like Howard with his good interior passing skills.

[exodus]

That isn't much of a problem if you have a decent coach, IMO. Al Horford could score against PFs who leave him wide open both with his decent jumper and penetrating in closer with no one guarding him. I don't think Horford is well utilized in our system or that he would be a detriment to a guy like Howard with his good interior passing skills.

Howard doesn't have good interior passing skills. He has shown time and again he is a turnover machine in traffic. That is a big reason why Rashard at the 4 works so well for them because it gives Howard more space.

Horford shoots roughly 40% on jumpers and has never shown the inclination or ability to consistently score off the dribble. In fact he frequently doesn't look to shoot at all even when wide open. Adding him into the starting lineup gives teams a very attraction option other than letting Howard kill them inside or letting their 3 point shooters have open looks.

[AHF]

Howard doesn't have good interior passing skills. He has shown time and again he is a turnover machine in traffic. That is a big reason why Rashard at the 4 works so well for them because it gives Howard more space.

Horford shoots roughly 40% on jumpers and has never shown the inclination or ability to consistently score off the dribble. In fact he frequently doesn't look to shoot at all even when wide open. Adding him into the starting lineup gives teams a very attraction option other than letting Howard kill them inside or letting their 3 point shooters have open looks.

Horford is the superior interior passer, not Howard. If people leave Horford wide open, that will leave him easy penetration which will lead to scrabbling to pick him back up and good passing options (on the perimeter at times as well as the interior). I also think Horford would work more effectively in the post against smaller defenders. We have seen he can't back down Dwight Howard but put him against Rashard Lewis and suddenly that opens other options. I think a good coach would improve his comfort level in doing things like shooting wide open mid-range Js and penetrating with an open lane. He isn't a great offensive player but can pass and is smart enough to exploit teams who would try to leave him wide open.

Remember the Rocket's 1993-94 championship team? It worked around the same principle of inside/outside and it started Otis Thorpe at the PF. Thorpe was no longer a standout scorer and actually ranked 8th on the team in PP36 but lifted the team with his defensive presence and rebounding. It sure didn't stop those perimeter shooters on the Rockets from getting great looks. With better coaching and a more discipline system, I think Horford would improve his impact on the offensive end of the floor.

[exodus]

Horford is the superior interior passer, not Howard. If people leave Horford wide open, that will leave him easy penetration which will lead to scrabbling to pick him back up and good passing options (on the perimeter at times as well as the interior). I also think Horford would work more effectively in the post against smaller defenders. We have seen he can't back down Dwight Howard but put him against Rashard Lewis and suddenly that opens other options. I think a good coach would improve his comfort level in doing things like shooting wide open mid-range Js and penetrating with an open lane. He isn't a great offensive player but can pass and is smart enough to exploit teams who would try to leave him wide open.

Remember the Rocket's 1993-94 championship team? It worked around the same principle of inside/outside and it started Otis Thorpe at the PF. Thorpe was no longer a standout scorer and actually ranked 8th on the team in PP36 but lifted the team with his defensive presence and rebounding. It sure didn't stop those perimeter shooters on the Rockets from getting great looks. With better coaching and a more discipline system, I think Horford would improve his impact on the offensive end of the floor.

I misread your post.

If Horford is reluctant to shoot open jumpers here and won't take guys like Big Z and Anderw Bogut off the dribble i don't see why that would change at the 4. Even against smaller players Horfords post game isn't very good unless he has a big size advantage (TT or Noah). If i am the opposing team i would definitely take my chances letting an 11.5 ppg player try to beat me.

I have been begging for Horford to shoot open jumpers and drive since he has been here.

[AHF]

I misread your post.

If Horford is reluctant to shoot open jumpers here and won't take guys like Big Z and Anderw Bogut off the dribble i don't see why that would change at the 4. Even against smaller players Horfords post game isn't very good unless he has a big size advantage (TT or Noah). If i am the opposing team i would definitely take my chances letting an 11.5 ppg player try to beat me.

I have been begging for Horford to shoot open jumpers and drive since he has been here.

You didn't misread it...I wrote it without defining my pronouns.

I may be wrong on Horford, but I view him as someone who would do the open jumper/driving thing with better coaching and a system that asked him to do those things (as opposed to a system that primarily asks him to clean up after jump shooters without an established offensive role).

[hawks21]

The problem with that lineup is that Howard becomes much easier to guard. Horford's man can easily double Howard at any time. They can just leave Horford wide open from 15 feet and force him to make jumpers.

I agree.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If Horford is on Orlando in place of Anderson, I see them running the following scary starting lineup:

Nelson

Carter

Lewis

Horford

Howard

That team would be scary.

They'd have everything to match up with any team. Even the Lakers. Defensively, they would be much better, especially from a rebounding standpoint. The ONLY problem might be Lewis at the 3 defensively. But that's still the best starting lineup in the league.

Even if he didn't start, he'd be their frontline version of Jamal Crawford. Not from a scoring standpoint, but from a rebounding one. He'd be the guy that could give both Howard and Lewis some rest on the frontline. He would easily average 25 - 30 minutes a night.

Horford's 40% jumpshooting is actually good for a big man. Add in the easy shots around the rim he'd get from passes from Nelson and Carter. And add in the extra offensive rebounds he'd get for the Magic. Damn.

LOL . . that team wins 65+ games easily . . and the NBA title.

Horford would essentialy be Dwight's "Otis Thorpe" ( the PF that played alongside Hakeem Olajuwon in those mid-90s Rocket championship teams ). And Thorpe didn't hamper Olajuwon at all, or slow down Houston's 3 point attack. Houston's schizophrenic jumpshooters slowed themselves down.

Ex's hatred of Horford's offensive skills, blinds him to the fact that Horford possesses a lot of other skill sets that he brings to the table to help a team win games.

[exodus]

They'd have everything to match up with any team. Even the Lakers. Defensively, they would be much better, especially from a rebounding standpoint. The ONLY problem might be Lewis at the 3 defensively. But that's still the best starting lineup in the league.

Even if he didn't start, he'd be their frontline version of Jamal Crawford. Not from a scoring standpoint, but from a rebounding one. He'd be the guy that could give both Howard and Lewis some rest on the frontline. He would easily average 25 - 30 minutes a night.

Horford's 40% jumpshooting is actually good for a big man. Add in the easy shots around the rim he'd get from passes from Nelson and Carter. And add in the extra offensive rebounds he'd get for the Magic. Damn.

LOL . . that team wins 65+ games easily . . and the NBA title.

Horford would essentialy be Dwight's "Otis Thorpe" ( the PF that played alongside Hakeem Olajuwon in those mid-90s Rocket championship teams ). And Thorpe didn't hamper Olajuwon at all, or slow down Houston's 3 point attack. Houston's schizophrenic jumpshooters slowed themselves down.

Ex's hatred of Horford's offensive skills, blinds him to the fact that Horford possesses a lot of other skill sets that he brings to the table to help a team win games.

It isn't so much that i hate his skills. it is his lack of production that i have a major problem with and i think it is just a lack of sense on his part. it doesn't take a high bball iq to know that you shouldn't try to back down a player that outweighs you by 30+ pounds. it doesn't take a high bball iq to shoot whide open 15 footers. And the thing is when he does shoot them he is frequently in such a hurry that he is off balance. It isn't like anyone is running out at him to contest a shot.

Most annoying of all is his consistent refusal to try and beat guys off the dribble. He is faster than nearly everyone he faces but just doesn't use his speed to his advantage. Every now and then he will show signs that he is trying to start taking the ball to the rim but he just won't do it consistently.

LOL @ his rebounding being so valuable to orlando. He would be the 3rd best rebounder on that team. He would be a defensive upgrade for them but a huge offensive downgrade.

The Houston comparison doesn't work. the Dream was one of the most offensively skilled big men of all time. Howard offensive skills are minimal. He scores by using his size and athleticism to overpower or outmanuever his opponents to get all the way to the rim. If he is more than 5 feet from the rim he can't score. it is far easier to get to the rim when there are 4 shooters spreading the floor.

Orlando got to the Finals starting Lewis at the 4. There is no way they change his position to accomodate a 11.5 ppg player.

Edited November 11, 2009 by exodus