Marvin Williams: Judging the Hawks' least essential starter

[hawks21]

The time has come for Marvin Williams to step forward and take on more of a leadership role on this team. 2009 may be a litmus test for the fifth year forward who has been given every chance to succeed under Mike Woodson. Last season, during the playoffs, Woodson had said that he needed Marvin to step up if they were going to have a chance against the Cavs. However, Marvin had an excuse already in place with his injuries and the Cavs ran all over the Hawks. The time for excuses is over for Marvin Williams, and with Mike Woodson's job security on the line and Joe Johnson's free agent status up in the air, RIck Sund has to know who can help lead this team beyond 2009.

Williams has heard all the talk about being compared to the Hornets' Chris Paul and the Jazz's Deron Williams, who are both All-Stars. For Williams, a seemingly reluctant leader, his play on the court as not reflected his draft status. Signing the 6'9 Williams to an extension may have been seen as a sign for the future, but it can be seen in another way. The team may be prepared to ship him away especially if the Hawks begin to struggle and/or Woodson face in-season pressure of being fired. Marvin has to make 2009 HIS YEAR. He is 23 years old and can't hide behind the excuse "I'm young". A lot of players are young, but they are productive and not afraid to show their talent on the court every night. This is Marvin's challenge. If Jeff Teague's 'energy' and willingness to make plays can be transplanted into Marvin, the Hawks would have an All-Star forward. However, this isn't the case. Marvin has to conjure up the desire and will to take his game to another level on his own and no one can help him with that. And if he continues to be a selective-no show on the road or against rivals such as Boston or Cleveland, then Marvin's time in Atlanta may come to a quick end via a mid-season trade.

[coachx]

If the teams fails to continue the progression this year and / or all signs point to the team being close to maxing out..............then trades will be made.

I don't think the Hawks have maxed out yet at all.

The big 3 in the East all have aging stars: Shaq, Ilgalskus, Carter, KG, Peirce, Allen, KG............these big teams, in the East, may be taking a step back in the near future but the Hawks should not be slowing down any time soon at all.

Just not the time for trades yet. Lets see how they look the first third of the season first.

[Diesel]

Signing the 6'9 Williams to an extension may have been seen as a sign for the future, but it can be seen in another way. The team may be prepared to ship him away especially if the Hawks begin to struggle and/or Woodson face in-season pressure of being fired. Marvin has to make 2009 HIS YEAR.

I'm going to put it out there that we signed Marvin because he was cheap. From the GM's perspective, we can't lose something for nothing. In other words, despite his low returns, Marvin still has value. Does that mean that we're going to keep him forever and always. I don't think so. As the original post states, the time for excuses is over. Also over is the time for hype. The only thing that it's time for is sobering honesty.

[Atlantaholic]

I doubt Marvin has enough trade value to be honest. If he continues to play the way he has and doesn't improve his contract is still very decent and he will be a nice role player for us regardless of who else is on the roster. If we are looking to make impact trades Horford or Smith (or both) would certainly have to be included IMHO.

[justin31]

The time has come for Marvin Williams to step forward and take on more of a leadership role on this team. 2009 may be a litmus test for the fifth year forward who has been given every chance to succeed under Mike Woodson. Last season, during the playoffs, Woodson had said that he needed Marvin to step up if they were going to have a chance against the Cavs. However, Marvin had an excuse already in place with his injuries and the Cavs ran all over the Hawks. The time for excuses is over for Marvin Williams, and with Mike Woodson's job security on the line and Joe Johnson's free agent status up in the air, RIck Sund has to know who can help lead this team beyond 2009.

Williams has heard all the talk about being compared to the Hornets' Chris Paul and the Jazz's Deron Williams, who are both All-Stars. For Williams, a seemingly reluctant leader, his play on the court as not reflected his draft status. Signing the 6'9 Williams to an extension may have been seen as a sign for the future, but it can be seen in another way. The team may be prepared to ship him away especially if the Hawks begin to struggle and/or Woodson face in-season pressure of being fired. Marvin has to make 2009 HIS YEAR. He is 23 years old and can't hide behind the excuse "I'm young". A lot of players are young, but they are productive and not afraid to show their talent on the court every night. This is Marvin's challenge. If Jeff Teague's 'energy' and willingness to make plays can be transplanted into Marvin, the Hawks would have an All-Star forward. However, this isn't the case. Marvin has to conjure up the desire and will to take his game to another level on his own and no one can help him with that. And if he continues to be a selective-no show on the road or against rivals such as Boston or Cleveland, then Marvin's time in Atlanta may come to a quick end via a mid-season trade.

injuries do not equal excuses; the cavs ran over the hawks because the hawks sucked.

[jerrywest]

injuries do not equal excuses; the cavs ran over the hawks because the hawks sucked.

If injuries aren't legit excuse then Miami shouldn't have lost 67 games in 07-08 when Wade was out injured.

If injuries aren't legit excuse then Spurs shouldn't have lost 61 games in 96-97 when Robinson was out injured. They won the lotto and picked up TD and then won the championship in 97-98. All that with Pops coaching.

[mrhonline]

From the GM's perspective, we can't lose something for nothing.

Agreed.

By the way, Marvin is BYC. It shouldn't be a huge issue, but it will have some effect on possible trades.

Personally, I think he's a Hawk for at least this season and next. He's even cheaper next year...

[Diesel]

I doubt Marvin has enough trade value to be honest. If he continues to play the way he has and doesn't improve his contract is still very decent and he will be a nice role player for us regardless of who else is on the roster. If we are looking to make impact trades Horford or Smith (or both) would certainly have to be included IMHO.

Role player being the key word. I think that Marvin doesn't really have to be our starter at the 3 and may be moved to the bench if he's not going to be effective. Why are we wasting minutes with him out there doing nothing?

[Diesel]

Agreed.

By the way, Marvin is BYC. It shouldn't be a huge issue, but it will have some effect on possible trades.

Personally, I think he's a Hawk for at least this season and next. He's even cheaper next year...

I think a lot depends on Sund's handling of Joe. I think it's Joe's World right now. IF Sund feels that Joe is headed elsewhere, we might see Joe Moved. Packaged with him may be Marvin.

[OGRat]

I think a lot depends on Sund's handling of Joe. I think it's Joe's World right now. IF Sund feels that Joe is headed elsewhere, we might see Joe Moved. Packaged with him may be Marvin.

I really do not think it is about what Marvin is capable of doing. He is just too passive for me. I think that as long as Marvin has a more dominant player on the court with him, he will be content to play second or third fiddle. And with Woodson's iso Joe offenses, he is not forced to step up except on the occaisional jump shot. I believe he could help the team more coming off the bench where the ball could be placed in his hands more. I believe that he could be more dominant if he were forced to. Unfortunately, there are too many studs on our first team for him to have the kind of impact he is capable of having.

I kind of wish we would start Crawford and let Marvin come off the bench with Teague and ZaZa.

[Buzzard]

I'm going to put it out there that we signed Marvin because he was cheap. From the GM's perspective, we can't lose something for nothing. In other words, despite his low returns, Marvin still has value. Does that mean that we're going to keep him forever and always. I don't think so. As the original post states, the time for excuses is over. Also over is the time for hype. The only thing that it's time for is sobering honesty.

Your starting lineup has to have some players who make less than 10 mill a year. Every team has them, even the Lakers at PG (pick one), the Cavs with Anthony at SG and Varejo at PF, and the Celtics with Perkins at center and Rondo for this season anyway.

Now with that being said, I think the honest truth should be told concerning our whole frontline. Horf is a great value but will be expensive when he re ups, Smoove so far is over paid, Marvin is probably considered a average to better than average long term value. But its just not about the money.

Smoove has to improve his blocking out and rebounding. If he fails to do this he is the least essential IMO.

Marvin has to improve his scoring. He is the 2nd least essential.

Horf has to improve his scoring. Horfs upside is the best of the three IMO and is the most essential due to what he already brings to the table.

Of these three IMO Horf has the best chance to be an all-star with something like 15 and 10, Smoove 2nd if he can get close to 10 RPG and keep his scoring around 16 to 17 PPG, Marvin 3rd if he gets his PPG up to around 18 to 19 PPG.

So is this enough honesty for you? This post states Marvin is our least essential starter; yet every team needs guys who do not break the bank but still perform at or above their contract level. From that point of view Marvin may be our most essential starter. You trade Marvin away to get a higher priced player and we could be stuck with a under acheiving yet overpaid Horf and Smoove.

Everyone wants to be honest yet ignore the most basic truth: All hype and BS aside, we only have one player who is worthy right now of a big contract and his name is not Josh Smith or Al Horford.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Buzzard

[Swatguy]

I think a lot depends on Sund's handling of Joe. I think it's Joe's World right now. IF Sund feels that Joe is headed elsewhere, we might see Joe Moved. Packaged with him may be Marvin.

I say send both and a #1 for Danny Granger.

[AHF]

I say send both and a #1 for Danny Granger.

I am not that sold on Granger who has never made the playoffs and who has more of an injury history than Joe.

[coachx]

Marvin will not be the "least essential" starter when we are playing the the beast of the East that have allstar SFs : Celtics / Pierce, Cavs / James, Wizards / Butler, or Magic / Carter & Lewis, Raptors / Hedo.

As long as Marvin can be a solid defender at the SF position I will gladly take 14.5 PPG, 6.5 reb. 46% FG, 36% 3FG, 80% FT.

If we start running less iso's for JJ and play more of a team game........then a lot of guys would see their ppg go up.

[justin31]

If injuries aren't legit excuse then Miami shouldn't have lost 67 games in 07-08 when Wade was out injured.

If injuries aren't legit excuse then Spurs shouldn't have lost 61 games in 96-97 when Robinson was out injured. They won the lotto and picked up TD and then won the championship in 97-98. All that with Pops coaching.

bad wording. i agree with you.

i meant that being injured isn't the same as making excuses for bad play. i was trying to say that marvin wasn't using injuries as an excuse for his lackluster showing in the playoffs. injuries are real.

[Buzzard]

Signing the 6'9 Williams to an extension may have been seen as a sign for the future, but it can be seen in another way. The team may be prepared to ship him away especially if the Hawks begin to struggle and/or Woodson face in-season pressure of being fired. Marvin has to make 2009 HIS YEAR.

I think a lot depends on Sund's handling of Joe. I think it's Joe's World right now. IF Sund feels that Joe is headed elsewhere, we might see Joe Moved. Packaged with him may be Marvin.

That is very intuitive. Never would have guessed that you would see a possible Marvin trade in the works....

My intuition tells me Sund sees real value in Marvin for the long haul; and we just need one more all-star to add in the mix with JJ. I might be wrong but that is how I see it. Furthermore, I think the odds of trading away our lone all-star and our starting SF after we just had our best season in like ten years equals slim and none.

But who knows, maybe one day you will get a "Marvin gets traded" right. Hell even Garnett got traded; so just just keep posting them.... :laughing5:

Edited October 26, 2009 by Buzzard

[hawks21]

Marvin will not be the "least essential" starter when we are playing the the beast of the East that have allstar SFs : Celtics / Pierce, Cavs / James, Wizards / Butler, or Magic / Carter & Lewis, Raptors / Hedo.

As long as Marvin can be a solid defender at the SF position I will gladly take 14.5 PPG, 6.5 reb. 46% FG, 36% 3FG, 80% FT.

If we start running less iso's for JJ and play more of a team game........then a lot of guys would see their ppg go up.

Against the best teams in the Eastern Conference ( Top 3) and on the road, Marvin struggles to hit even his modest individual averages. As long as Marvin is receiving starter's minutes, he has step up his game.

Marvin gets plenty of opportunities with the ball in his hands even though JJ has plays called for him. However, Marvin squanders his opportunities by getting stuffed at the basket by not going strong enough consistently. He is scared to shoot threes (at times) when he was open.

Woodson knew Marvin had some injury concerns, but he made a point prior to the Cleveland series that the Hawks needed Marvin to show up. Woodson PUBLICLY SAID THIS. And really it wasn't about the Cleveland series, but going forward into this 2009-2010 season... An early TEST for Marvin is the first five games which include road tests in Los Angleles and Portand. Will Marvin underperform on the road and against the better team then make up for it against the worse teams? Marvin needs to bring his game every night and take on a leadership role and display his talents when Kobe and Brandon Roy are at their best.

[EazyRoc]

Marvin will not be the "least essential" starter when we are playing the the beast of the East that have allstar SFs : Celtics / Pierce, Cavs / James, Wizards / Butler, or Magic / Carter & Lewis, Raptors / Hedo.

As long as Marvin can be a solid defender at the SF position I will gladly take 14.5 PPG, 6.5 reb. 46% FG, 36% 3FG, 80% FT.

If we start running less iso's for JJ and play more of a team game........then a lot of guys would see their ppg go up.

I would agree with you, but even if he WAS a good defender..we switch so much on screens that it would be easy for the other team's players to get the matchups they want.

[Buzzard]

I would agree with you, but even if he WAS a good defender..we switch so much on screens that it would be easy for the other team's players to get the matchups they want.

Dont know if you noticed this or not, but the ball usually swings over to Bibbys's man and the switches that kill us involve Bibby, Smoove, and Horf. Sometimes it will involve JJ at the top of the key also. But most times Bibby, Smoove, and Horf. Pick and rolls the same.

Opposing teams stay the hell away from Marvin and JJ switches cause the matchup is no where near as lopsided. This is by design of the opponents coaching staff and it works to perfection...

Edited October 27, 2009 by Buzzard

[MaceCase]

Dont know if you noticed this or not; but the ball usually swings over to Bibbys's man and the switches that kill us involve Bibby, Smoove, and Horf. Sometimes it will involve JJ at the top of the key also. But most times Bibby, Smoove, and Horf. Pick and rolls the same.

Opposing teams stay the hell away from Marvin and JJ switches cause the matchup is no where near as lopsided. This is by design of the opponents coaching staff and it works to perfection...

Glad you mentioned that. Teams either switch taller players to abuse Bibby or smaller players to test Smoove and Horf's lateral quickness.