Nice rant about JJ

[jerrywest]

JJ publicly saying that he is disappointed with the team’s performance is disturbing to me. There are subliminal messages in his statement that suggests he is growing frustrated and is ready to move on. As he used words like “It’s discouraging. Sometimes, you never know what you’re going to get from this team. And that won’t work.” For your leader to feel this way, is he already throwing the team under a bus before the season starts? Is this a CYA move to keep his quest for elite status alive and untarnished? I hope not. Even though he may speak the truth, shouldn’t that type of discussion be made unpublicized? When JJ starts airing dirty laundry, not only will the team be exposed but he will as well.

As I reflect again on the blow-out lose to Orlando via my DVR, I noticed the stagnated Hawks offense was punctuated by the excessive amount of ISO plays ran for JJ. It was apparent that over 50% of the Hawk’s offense was basically a 2-man game between Mike Bibby and Joe Johnson. As the ball is passed to JJ mostly in the corners, he is either getting trapped causing turn-overs or he takes bad shots. When JJ is successful passing out of double or triple-team back to Bibby who is wide-open, he also miss too many shots. If both of these guys start out flat this way and that becomes 50% of the 1st quart offense, then it’s automatic that the Hawks will start behind if the opponent starts out hot as Orlando did. The Hawks offense gets stalled this way and also because there is no movement without the ball by the players. They may occasionally pass the ball around but they are just standing and don’t move around. When that happens, the defenders can begin to cheat and gamble with their man to setup traps and steals. Orlando did this all night long. So as JJ and Bibby goes, the Hawk team goes.

So if JJ is disappointed with anyone, he needs to look himself in the mirror because he is mostly the offense (by design). Everyone else on this team just supports him. If we are inconsistent, it is because of him. If we lay an egg on national TV it is because of him. If we self-destruct in big games, it is because of him. So goes JJ, so goes the Hawks. The opponents know that as that is the reason he is always double and/or triple team. To beat the Hawks, you just need to beat JJ.

It is very hypocritical of JJ to publicly make these comments when he is the majority of the offense when the game is on the line. So as JJ ponders whether he is an elite player, maybe the answer to that question will soon be revealed if not already.

[jerrywest]

I think JJ wants to be LeBron's Pippen. That's his only way to the hall of fame.

Marvin/Josh/Al need to stop letting JJ treat them like his BBBitchass

Edited October 26, 2009 by jerrywest

[Buzzard]

I think JJ wants to be LeBron's Pippen. That's his only way to the hall of fame.

Marvin/Josh/Al need to stop letting JJ treat them like his BBBitchass

Woody allows this to happen. Its a guard oriented offense as the post suggest.......As JJ and Bibby goes so goes the Hawks. Its funny how Marvin had his best games of the season with JJ out...don't know about you but it makes me wonder why?

[AHF]

Woody allows this to happen. Its a guard oriented offense as the post suggest.......As JJ and Bibby goes so goes the Hawks. Its funny how Marvin had his best games of the season with JJ out...don't know about you but it makes me wonder why?

I think it is bad form by JJ to criticize after a poor game by him, but the issue of the offense is a Woody one more than a JJ one.

[Buzzard]

I think it is bad form by JJ to criticize after a poor game by him, but the issue of the offense is a Woody one more than a JJ one.

I agree 100%. And what I wonder about is why can't we get Marvin just as involved with JJ in and he is when JJ is out? Same coach but he has them play different when JJ is out.

I think its because the ball "has" to go through JJ (SG) over 50% of the time when he is in and that does not happen when someone else (SG) starts in his place.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Buzzard

[buckeye242424]

I think it is bad form by JJ to criticize after a poor game by him, but the issue of the offense is a Woody one more than a JJ one.

This is something we're in total agreement on. It's ridiculous to let guys like Smoove, Horf, and Marv to sit and watch JJ on the offensive end. It just screams to me we're wasting talents of some really athletic and gifted players. They could be utilized in such a different manner. Coaches around the league must love preparing for the Hawks. "Ok, double Johnson. Good enough, let's have a long dinner"....

[tbhawksfan]

If I was coaching this team, I'd play JJ off the ball. Let the other players exploit tjeir athleticism and get JJ single team kick-outs. With that kind of ball movement, if they double JJ, a quick pass should be open to a cutting teammate.

[buckeye242424]

If I was coaching this team, I'd play JJ off the ball. Let the other players exploit tjeir athleticism and get JJ single team kick-outs. With that kind of ball movement, if they double JJ, a quick pass should be open to a cutting teammate.

All things we do poorly. Basketball 101. (Save the arguments we only have 24 seconds and only 15 after we finally get past half court. - I get it) Other teams around the league move better, set more screens. How bout flashing our PF or Center to the high post when JJ gets doubled. Everyone stands then floats out behind the arc.

[dhawk]

It's ridiculous to let guys like Smoove, Horf, and Marv to sit and watch JJ on the offensive end. It just screams to me we're wasting talents of some really athletic and gifted players.

I took a closer look at that disastrous 1st quarter and it looked like the problems were wide spread and not just with Joe. Yea, he was 0-2 fg, 1-2 ft, 1 ast with 2 turnovers, but that alone shouldn't cause a 37-16 1st quarter score. Looks like Josh had the best quarter 2-2 fg, 1 ast, 1 reb, even though 1 reb is good. Let's see, Horford 0-2 fg, 2-2 ft, 0 ast, 0 reb. Bibby 1-4 fg, 1 to , 1 reb, 25% shooting wide open jumpers. Marvin, 0-1 fg, 1 reb, 0 ast, pretty quite and forced his only shot. Crawford came in took 3 shots scored 5 points and Teague went 0-3 from the field. It doesn't look like Joe dominated the ball the 1st qtr with everybody else standing by watching, they just wasn't producing either. If Joe had taken the majority of the shots then I would agree, but Joe only took 2 shots and guys touched the ball and shot bricks other than Smoove and Crawford.

[Swatguy]

Woody allows this to happen. Its a guard oriented offense as the post suggest.......As JJ and Bibby goes so goes the Hawks. Its funny how Marvin had his best games of the season with JJ out...don't know about you but it makes me wonder why?

How revealing. Perhaps it is, could it be? Marvin disappears because Joe is killing the offense.

Solution: Take the keys away from Joe. Make Joe the second (third) option. Run the offense through Marvin, then Al and kick to Joe and Bibs as options. Stop forcing Joe to play the Batman, allow him to be that Robin.

[HawkItus]

I think the answer to our situation lies in Teague. If we can convince him to be the drive and kick or dish guy he can be, then we will not have many "off" nights. Guys like Horf and Smith even Marvin excel when they don't have to create to the rim. Give them the advantage of operating on the move with the element surprise after the penetration. Joe doesn't work for this because he doesn't get by his man. He beats them, but rarely is he past his man to the point where the defense must commit and allow for the quick dish for the driving player. Teague and to a small extent crawford should change this.

[Buzzard]

How revealing. Perhaps it is, could it be? Marvin disappears because Joe is killing the offense.

Solution: Take the keys away from Joe. Make Joe the second (third) option. Run the offense through Marvin, then Al and kick to Joe and Bibs as options. Stop forcing Joe to play the Batman, allow him to be that Robin.

It is what it is. JJ is not Kobe or Lebron. Both of them are critisized a lot for not shooting enough; but instead they try and get their team mates involved early. JJ wants to get to that level then that is what he needs to do (if he and Woodys offense is even capable of this). I wonder how many 1st quarters are JJ's best quarters scoring? With Kobe and Lebron the 1st is probably their worse.....

Would be informative to compare quarter by quarter assist stats as well.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Buzzard

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Three things need to be addressed in this conversation. Since everyone is talking offense first, let's begin theere.

1) If people don't want JJ dominating the ball, and want more ball movement, why is it that everytime JJ exits a game, the players ( talking about Marvin, Horford, and Smoove ) hardly ever step up to the plate offensively?

When JJ is out of a game, that's their chance to show that they can be viable offensive threats, right? So why doesn't it happen more times than not? It doesn't happen because those guys aren't even average one on one scorers. They perform poorly ( other than Smoove on some nights ) when they have to create their own shot.

And because of this, no one worries about sending a diouble team toward Horford, or Marvin, or Smith. They can play those guys straight up, while JJ just sits outside waiting for the ball to return to him. A ball that may never come, because his man isn't going to leave JJ to double Marvin.

2) The only way you can maximize the talent of Smith, Horford, and Marvin, is if you run ISO JJ at times ( in which when a team sends a double team to JJ, he can rotate the ball to a wide open shooter ) . . . .OR . . . . if you have a penetrating playmaker that can dart in and out of the lane, and either get a lay-up, somebody else a lay-up, or for that PG to drive and kick it out to a shooter.

Since people have a problem with ISO JJ, let's address the penetrating playmaker. First off, Bibby CAN'T do this. At this point in his career, he's merrely a stamdstill jumpshooter, or a shooter that can use picks or a few dribbles to set up his jumper. He's not going to blow past somebody ( ala Steve Nash ), get into the lane, and get an easy look for somebody on the inside, or with a kick-out pass to a 3 point shooter.

So the alternative is to hope that Crawford and Teague can do this on a regular basis, to get guys easy looks. When Woody alluded to Zaza is going to love playing with Crawford and Teague, this is what he was talking about. Their penetration into the lane will force a guy like Howard to stop their advance before they get a lay-up. At that point, a smart penetrating playmaker would get the ball to Zaza, and get him an easy lay-up.

3) Now . . let's address the REAL REASON why these guys didn't go to the rim vs Orlando ( since tis is the reason all of these questions are popping up now. ) The reason why they settled for jumpers, is because they didn't want to challenge last year's DPOY at the rim . . .

Dwight Howard.

When you have a guy in the middle that you know can block your shot at any time, a player may seek not to challenge him, and settle for the easy jumpshot. And look at the makeup of our team:

- we can't toss the ball into the post, and expect any of those guys to be remotely successful vs Howard ( or any other defensive oriented center ), because our guys aren't crafty enough low post scorers. When you see that Zaza is the guy with the most low post moves, that speaks volumes about our low post options. But we all know what we get with Zaza: ( dribble, dribble, pump fake, go up weakly and miss the lay-up . . tip rebound miss . . tip rebound miss . . tip rebound score or the other team grabs the board )

- our guards LOVE to shoot jumpers ( outside of Teague ), and aren't necessarily known as physical guards that can take contact AT THE RIM and finish the play. JJ is trying to go to the basket more, but he's much more comfortable with shooting the 9 foot floater in the lane. Crawford definiely won't do it on most nights. Mo doesn't do it. Teague is the only guy who may do this on most nights.

- Horford would much rather shoot the 15 foor jumper, than to go directly at somebody. He almost refuses to take a big center off the dribble and get to the rim, like Smoove does when he takes PFs to the rim.

- We all know Smith loves the jumper, but even when he does go to the rim, it's usually in a finesse way, other than in a power way ( which is why I have been begging the dude to play more like Shawn Kemp, who relentlessly attacked the rim and forced people to foul him )

- Marvin probably goes hardest to the rim ( even though he's less likely to go to the rim than Horford or Smith ). But even with him, he's out of control sometimes. If he draws a foul, great. It's not so great though, if it's an offensive foul, or if he loses the ball, or if he goes so hard, that he ends up getting hit in the air and falls hard to the floor . . hurting himself.

Might as well add a

4) . . we ARE a soft team overall. The Hawks don't have a scrapper's identity, like a San Antonio or a Utah. The only 2 guys on this squad that people can remotely call "scrappers" or "tough players", are Horford and Zaza. No way would this team survive in the Old Eastern Conference of the 80s and 90s. The Hawks are very much reminiscent of a Western Conference team, that would rather beat you with shooting and atleticism, than by grinding a game out.

Thankfully for us, Woody keeps instilling in them that they MUST grind things out every game, in order for us to win. The players just need to start believing that. It's a reason why were such a bad rebounding team. Being undersized does have something to do with it. But it's mostly because this team doesn't scrap nearly as hard as they should.

It's not because they don't play hard, because they do. But on most nights, they won't always put a body on somebody, to give them a better chance at a rebound . . or fight through a pick ( my main beef with Bibby on defense ) . . or aggressively close out a shooter with hands up.

This is why Woody always preaches defense and rebounding, before he starts worrying about the offense. When we defend and rebound, we win games. But we've shot 55%+ on occasion, and lost games, due to poor rebounding and defense.

So when Woody says ish like "defense and rebounding will take care off the offense, ( for this team ), he's actually right, because those two things great fast break and quick open shot opportunities.

Edited October 26, 2009 by northcyde

[Plainview1981]

I think it is bad form by JJ to criticize after a poor game by him, but the issue of the offense is a Woody one more than a JJ one.

JJ seems to defend Woody or has said that he likes having him around. If JJ wanted Woody gone, I believe it would happen. I lose sympathy for JJ when he seemingly is alright with keeping Woody around.

[Buzzard]

JJ seems to defend Woody or has said that he likes having him around. If JJ wanted Woody gone, I believe it would happen. I lose sympathy for JJ when he seemingly is alright with keeping Woody around.

JJ wants to be the man and he is the man as long as Woody is the coach. ISO Joe makes Joe look good even when he is shooting .420 from the field. He had no excuses in Phoenix with Amare, Marion, and Nash providing him wide open looks and dunks.

Edited October 26, 2009 by Buzzard

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think the answer to our situation lies in Teague. If we can convince him to be the drive and kick or dish guy he can be, then we will not have many "off" nights. Guys like Horf and Smith even Marvin excel when they don't have to create to the rim. Give them the advantage of operating on the move with the element surprise after the penetration. Joe doesn't work for this because he doesn't get by his man. He beats them, but rarely is he past his man to the point where the defense must commit and allow for the quick dish for the driving player. Teague and to a small extent crawford should change this.

Damn, I must've been typing my thesis ar you wrote this, because I totally agree.

I still say that if Acie doesn't get hurt early on in his rookie year, that he was going to be our PG for a long time. He could pretty much take anybody off the dribble and make the right pass. But unlike Teague, if you even blew on that dude going to the rim, he was going to miss the lay-up.

But if Teague proves that he can be the aggressor and score at the rim, while also make the right pass to set people up, you'll see an immeadiate change in how efficient our offense is.

People want Woody to construct this efficient offense without a low post threat that can't score efficiently or occasionally draw a double team, and a PG who can't beat anyone off the dribble. Every good offense in the league is going to have at least one ( or both ) of these elements.

That's why the guy preaches defense so much. If we get stops, it gives our athletic frontcourt a chance to get out and run, and get easy scores.

[buckeye242424]

Three things need to be addressed in this conversation. Since everyone is talking offense first, let's begin theere.

1) If people don't want JJ dominating the ball, and want more ball movement, why is it that everytime JJ exits a game, the players ( talking about Marvin, Horford, and Smoove ) hardly ever step up to the plate offensively?

When JJ is out of a game, that's their chance to show that they can be viable offensive threats, right? So why doesn't it happen more times than not? It doesn't happen because those guys aren't even average one on one scorers. They perform poorly ( other than Smoove on some nights ) when they have to create their own shot.

And because of this, no one worries about sending a diouble team toward Horford, or Marvin, or Smith. They can play those guys straight up, while JJ just sits outside waiting for the ball to return to him. A ball that may never come, because his man isn't going to leave JJ to double Marvin.

2) The only way you can maximize the talent of Smith, Horford, and Marvin, is if you run ISO JJ at times ( in which when a team sends a double team to JJ, he can rotate the ball to a wide open shooter ) . . . .OR . . . . if you have a penetrating playmaker that can dart in and out of the lane, and either get a lay-up, somebody else a lay-up, or for that PG to drive and kick it out to a shooter.

Since people have a problem with ISO JJ, let's address the penetrating playmaker. First off, Bibby CAN'T do this. At this point in his career, he's merrely a stamdstill jumpshooter, or a shooter that can use picks or a few dribbles to set up his jumper. He's not going to blow past somebody ( ala Steve Nash ), get into the lane, and get an easy look for somebody on the inside, or with a kick-out pass to a 3 point shooter.

So the alternative is to hope that Crawford and Teague can do this on a regular basis, to get guys easy looks. When Woody alluded to Zaza is going to love playing with Crawford and Teague, this is what he was talking about. Their penetration into the lane will force a guy like Howard to stop their advance before they get a lay-up. At that point, a smart penetrating playmaker would get the ball to Zaza, and get him an easy lay-up.

3) Now . . let's address the REAL REASON why these guys didn't go to the rim vs Orlando ( since tis is the reason all of these questions are popping up now. ) The reason why they settled for jumpers, is because they didn't want to challenge last year's DPOY at the rim . . .

Dwight Howard.

When you have a guy in the middle that you know can block your shot at any time, a player may seek not to challenge him, and settle for the easy jumpshot. And look at the makeup of our team:

- we can't toss the ball into the post, and expect any of those guys to be remotely successful vs Howard ( or any other defensive oriented center ), because our guys aren't crafty enough low post scorers. When you see that Zaza is the guy with the most low post moves, that speaks volumes about our low post options. But we all know what we get with Zaza: ( dribble, dribble, pump fake, go up weakly and miss the lay-up . . tip rebound miss . . tip rebound miss . . tip rebound score or the other team grabs the board )

- our guards LOVE to shoot jumpers ( outside of Teague ), and aren't necessarily known as physical guards that can take contact AT THE RIM and finish the play. JJ is trying to go to the basket more, but he's much more comfortable with shooting the 9 foot floater in the lane. Crawford definiely won't do it on most nights. Mo doesn't do it. Teague is the only guy who may do this on most nights.

- Horford would much rather shoot the 15 foor jumper, than to go directly at somebody. He almost refuses to take a big center off the dribble and get to the rim, like Smoove does when he takes PFs to the rim.

- We all know Smith loves the jumper, but even when he does go to the rim, it's usually in a finesse way, other than in a power way ( which is why I have been begging the dude to play more like Shawn Kemp, who relentlessly attacked the rim and forced people to foul him )

- Marvin probably goes hardest to the rim ( even though he's less likely to go to the rim than Horford or Smith ). But even with him, he's out of control sometimes. If he draws a foul, great. It's not so great though, if it's an offensive foul, or if he loses the ball, or if he goes so hard, that he ends up getting hit in the air and falls hard to the floor . . hurting himself.

Might as well add a

4) . . we ARE a soft team overall. The Hawks don't have a scrapper's identity, like a San Antonio or a Utah. The only 2 guys on this squad that people can remotely call "scrappers" or "tough players", are Horford and Zaza. No way would this team survive in the Old Eastern Conference of the 80s and 90s. The Hawks are very much reminiscent of a Western Conference team, that would rather beat you with shooting and atleticism, than by grinding a game out.

Thankfully for us, Woody keeps instilling in them that they MUST grind things out every game, in order for us to win. The players just need to start believing that. It's a reason why were such a bad rebounding team. Being undersized does have something to do with it. But it's mostly because this team doesn't scrap nearly as hard as they should.

It's not because they don't play hard, because they do. But on most nights, they won't always put a body on somebody, to give them a better chance at a rebound . . or fight through a pick ( my main beef with Bibby on defense ) . . or aggressively close out a shooter with hands up.

This is why Woody always preaches defense and rebounding, before he starts worrying about the offense. When we defend and rebound, we win games. But we've shot 55%+ on occasion, and lost games, due to poor rebounding and defense.

So when Woody says ish like "defense and rebounding will take care off the offense, ( for this team ), he's actually right, because those two things great fast break and quick open shot opportunities.

They shouldn't have to be "average" one on one scorers. They don't know what to do when JJ is out becuase JJ IS the offense. When he's not on the floor, we look even more stupid because the entire "system" is Joe Johnson. There's a reason he's burnt out and worn into the ground. If he's not in the game, we are five guys standing with our thumb up our butts because everyone is lost! (Why Flip was so important - he was the ONE guy that could create his own shot = career year = our head coach is clueless).

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So when Woody says ish like "defense and rebounding will take care off the offense, ( for this team ), he's actually right, because those two things great fast break and quick open shot opportunities.

CREATE . . . not great

Edited October 26, 2009 by northcyde

[niremetal]

I agree with the sentiments around here that the fact JJ dominates the ball is primarily Woody's responsibility, since JJ isn't the one who designs our offensive "system." I'll also say that unlike certain other All-Star shooting guards who shall remain nameless, JJ consistently used "we" in his comments - he included himself in the criticism. That's a big step up from said nameless SGs and also a big step up from his "young guys just running wild" comments after the Boston series.

[DrReality]

I don't know that the other guys look to JJ as the leader. He has not been vocal in the past. And for him to do that he has to have their buy in?