In order for us to be a dynasty in future seasons...

[Atlantaholic]

Dwyane Wade is amazing. I don't know how anyone can dispute that... not to mention the calls he gets. The team he won a championship with was not very good, and the team he took to the playoffs last year was a freaking joke. A decent team is a contender with Wade on the team, just like with Lebron, and Kobe.

[coachx]

Dwyane Wade is amazing. I don't know how anyone can dispute that... not to mention the calls he gets. The team he won a championship with was not very good, and the team he took to the playoffs last year was a freaking joke. A decent team is a contender with Wade on the team, just like with Lebron, and Kobe.

I'm not saying Wade is not amazing. I am just comparing Wade's "amazingness" to the young version of A.I. I will argue that the team Wade was on WAS VERY GOOD and much better then the teams A.I. had to work with.

All I said was that Wade will not be a player that ages gracefully due to his style of play................that does not mean he is not an amazing player right now.

Allen Iverson was also pretty damn amazing in his younger years and the team he took to the Finals was less talented then that Heat team that won it all.

Jason Williams

Gary Payton

A. Walker

James Posey

Shaquiel O'Neil

Udonis Haslem

Alonzo Mourning

Jason Kapno

Shannon Anderson (guarded Jordan in 2 NBA Finals)

Wade had 3 hall of famers (Shaq, Mourning, Payton) on that team. Shaq was 32 most of the season and turned 33 right before the playoffs.

A.I.'s 76ers:

Mutombo

McKie

Snow

T. Hill

Lynch

Raja Bell as a rookie and only played in 5 games

Geiger

Macollouch

J. Jones

A.I. had 1 hall of famer on his team (Mutumbo) and no scoring help. Mutumbo was 34 most of the season but turned 35 during the NBA Finals.

It is important to note that Mutumbo may have been 37-38..........no real birth certificate from his African tribe but we know Shaq's age is a fact.

Edited October 27, 2009 by coachx

[Atlantaholic]

I'm not saying Wade is not amazing. I am just comparing Wade's "amazingness" to the young version of A.I. I will argue that the team Wade was on WAS VERY GOOD and much better then the teams A.I. had to work with.

All I said was that Wade will not be a player that ages gracefullydue to his style of play................that does not mean he is not an amazing player right now.

.

.

I don't see how you can really assume that, especially citing Iverson as an example. If Wade ages like Iverson he will be averaging 25 + points well into his 30s. It's possible, sure, but I don't see how you make that assumption... JJ already looks more worn down than Wade btw. JJ looked OLD in the playoffs. and he looked old during the entire second half of two seasons ago. The dude has some kind of conditioning problem. Iverson played 40 minutes plus a game and still looked as good at 32 than he did at 22.

[buckeye242424]

I don't see how you can really assume that, especially citing Iverson as an example. If Wade ages like Iverson he will be averaging 25 + points well into his 30s. It's possible, sure, but I don't see how you make that assumption... JJ already looks more worn down than Wade btw. JJ looked OLD in the playoffs. and he looked old during the entire second half of two seasons ago. The dude has some kind of conditioning problem. Iverson played 40 minutes plus a game and still looked as good at 32 than he did at 22.

Yeah, it's called his coach running him into the ground.

Not only his minutes. Knowing that you are the guy that has to play well every night in order for the team to win would wear on a person...

[Diesel]

Dynasty? Dynasty?

Dynasty requires a few things:

1. The right coach.

2. The right star player.

3. The right system.

Notice the coaches of these dynasties:

Pat Riley, Rudy T., Greg Poppovich, Chuck Daly, and Phil Jackson.

That's it..

These guys are/were special. They understood that there was a right way to motivate players, a right way to put talent on the floor. BUT notice, these guys wasn't successful at every stop:

Phil Jackson with the Lakers without Shaq.

It took a long time for him to get back to winning without Shaw.

Pat Riley at NY and Miami.

He didn't win it in NY and Miami took him getting Shaq.

Rudy T in Houston.

There were some very popular Houston teams that Rudy didn't win with.

Popp in San Antonio.

Every now and then the moon with hit the earth just right and Rudy's team will be back in it.

Chuck D. in Jersey.

As good as he got them... NO RING.

Therefore the right stars are neccessary...

Let me just put up a few names:

Lakers = Shaq and Magic and Kobe

Miami = Shaq and Wade.

Chicago = Jordan and Pippen.

Houston = Hakeem.

Detroit = Gentlemen Joe and Zeke.

Right now.. Even with Wade, I don't think Wade is enough. I think the way to a Dynasty is by getting a dominant Center and a new coach. Horford is a good tough guy but he's not goign to dominate offenisve or defensively.

And that's where we are.

[Atlantaholic]

Yeah, it's called his coach running him into the ground.

Not only his minutes. Knowing that you are the guy that has to play well every night in order for the team to win would wear on a person...

That proves my point though. Iverson did it for longer than JJ (with more minutes than JJ) while being by far more physical and aggressive and yet the dude looked fresh playing into his 30's (until last year at 33). On the other hand JJ is already looking like he is in his 30's. The fact JJ has had issues each of the last three years is a sign of concern for me, people say that JJ is a pillar of dependability but it has been three offseasons in a row where we hear how he wasn't close to 100% at seasons end and how he was worn down. When he is healthy and rested he is a totally different player... Most of the year though, he isn't that player, and that, to me, is concerning.

[MaceCase]

That proves my point though. Iverson did it for longer than JJ (with more minutes than JJ) while being by far more physical and aggressive and yet the dude looked fresh playing into his 30's (until last year at 33). On the other hand JJ is already looking like he is in his 30's. The fact JJ has had issues each of the last three years is a sign of concern for me, people say that JJ is a pillar of dependability but it has been three offseasons in a row where we hear how he wasn't close to 100% at seasons end and how he was worn down. When he is healthy and rested he is a totally different player... Most of the year though, he isn't that player, and that, to me, is concerning.

You have to also think about their physical statures. Iverson is 160 pounds, and like RIP Hamilton, is built like a marathon runner. JJ is 240 pounds and built like a linebacker. You could have prime Ray Lewis run a football field 20 times in a row and he will be winded far before any average corner back. It's just biophysics or what not.

[Atlantaholic]

You have to also think about their physical statures. Iverson is 160 pounds, and like RIP Hamilton, is built like a marathon runner. JJ is 240 pounds and built like a linebacker. You could have prime Ray Lewis run a football field 20 times in a row and he will be winded far before any average corner back. It's just biophysics or what not.

That's definitely true

[Diesel]

You have to also think about their physical statures. Iverson is 160 pounds, and like RIP Hamilton, is built like a marathon runner. JJ is 240 pounds and built like a linebacker. You could have prime Ray Lewis run a football field 20 times in a row and he will be winded far before any average corner back. It's just biophysics or what not.

Yep, People forget that Joe is 240. He's optimal SF/PF size... But we have him chasing 2s all over the place. Thanks Marvin.

[Atlantaholic]

Yep, People forget that Joe is 240. He's optimal SF/PF size... But we have him chasing 2s all over the place. Thanks Marvin.

Lol what? What does Marvin have to do with it?

[buckeye242424]

Lol what? What does Marvin have to do with it?

Nothing. It's just another jab at Marvin. haha. While I will agree some of Diesel's opinions on Marvin on the offensive end...and I do...I will never understand the hate towards him on the other side. Defense is not a liability of Marv. He's asked to guard the best players in the league. If he's so terrible, it's yet another oversight on Woody. Woody is known for his defensive knowledge, and no one around here really complains about our defense.

[MaceCase]

Diesel is like an Ethiopian pirate when it comes to hijacking threads.

Oh and it's not Marvin's fault that Joe is actually chasing around 1's.

Edited October 27, 2009 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It's funny. Everybody wants to add Wade, when they know good and well why the BIG 3 are better than us . . . .the frontline.

Unless you team Wade with another all-star player ( preferably a PF or C ), he's not winning jack. That's why when this discussion of swapping Wade for JJ came up, I said that we'd still probably be the #4 team in the East, with maybe 55 wins ( instead of 50 ).

The problem folks, is that those teams have better frontlines than we do. People just have to accept that.

So the only way we can beat those teams, is to do what the 2004 Pistons did, and become the BEST defensive team in the NBA. People can talk about Wade, or offensive systems, or coaches all they want. But this team's only chance ( as constructed now ), is to be lights out defensively.

But it goes back to the guy that no one wants to trade . . . Josh Smith.

His development is the key to everything here, as long as we have a good backcourt. If he doesn't play bigger, we can't advance as far as we need to be.

And his presece on the squad prevents Al Horford from possibly developing into a good PF, because we need him to play center.

But no one wants to trade the most exciting player on the team.

A trade for Amare Stoudamire, while keeping JJ . . wins you more games and gives us a better shot at challenging the BIG 3 . . . than losng JJ and adding Wade. At least then, you have a legitimate big man that people have to account for. You double JJ, and Amare will have a field day. You double Amare, and that opens everything up for the shooters. His presence also may give Horford a chance to play more PF, to showcase what he can do.

With our frontline inconsistency problems, I'd even go to say that a team consisting of Marcus Camby and Dejuan Blair, would be better for the Hawks, than Jamal Crawford and Jeff Teague. A frontline of Horford, Smoove, Camby, Zaza, and Blair would cause all kinds of problems for people. It'll also give us a better array of bodies to throw at the frontlines that the BIG 3 possess.

But everybody loves offense in A-Town. Rather look like Dallas and lose, than to look like old Detroit and win. Complain when the Hawks win 82 - 79 . . because they'd rather see the Hawks win 111- 106.

Until this team as constructed right now, start "selling out" on the defensive end, and start relentlessly crashing the boards, we'll always be a good team on the cusp of being a great team . . . but we'll never get there.

It is what it is folks.

[Admin]

Yep, People forget that Joe is 240. He's optimal SF/PF size... But we have him chasing 2s all over the place. Thanks Marvin.

Actually thanks Bibby as Joe chases PGs all over the place. Marvin MORE THAN holds down the defense at the SF spot.

[Joker]

It's funny. Everybody wants to add Wade, when they know good and well why the BIG 3 are better than us . . . .the frontline.

Unless you team Wade with another all-star player ( preferably a PF or C ), he's not winning jack. That's why when this discussion of swapping Wade for JJ came up, I said that we'd still probably be the #4 team in the East, with maybe 55 wins ( instead of 50 ).

The problem folks, is that those teams have better frontlines than we do. People just have to accept that.

So the only way we can beat those teams, is to do what the 2004 Pistons did, and become the BEST defensive team in the NBA. People can talk about Wade, or offensive systems, or coaches all they want. But this team's only chance ( as constructed now ), is to be lights out defensively.

But it goes back to the guy that no one wants to trade . . . Josh Smith.

His development is the key to everything here, as long as we have a good backcourt. If he doesn't play bigger, we can't advance as far as we need to be.

And his presece on the squad prevents Al Horford from possibly developing into a good PF, because we need him to play center.

But no one wants to trade the most exciting player on the team.

A trade for Amare Stoudamire, while keeping JJ . . wins you more games and gives us a better shot at challenging the BIG 3 . . . than losng JJ and adding Wade. At least then, you have a legitimate big man that people have to account for. You double JJ, and Amare will have a field day. You double Amare, and that opens everything up for the shooters. His presence also may give Horford a chance to play more PF, to showcase what he can do.

With our frontline inconsistency problems, I'd even go to say that a team consisting of Marcus Camby and Dejuan Blair, would be better for the Hawks, than Jamal Crawford and Jeff Teague. A frontline of Horford, Smoove, Camby, Zaza, and Blair would cause all kinds of problems for people. It'll also give us a better array of bodies to throw at the frontlines that the BIG 3 possess.

But everybody loves offense in A-Town. Rather look like Dallas and lose, than to look like old Detroit and win. Complain when the Hawks win 82 - 79 . . because they'd rather see the Hawks win 111- 106.

Until this team as constructed right now, start "selling out" on the defensive end, and start relentlessly crashing the boards, we'll always be a good team on the cusp of being a great team . . . but we'll never get there.

It is what it is folks.

I disagree about Wade and agree about Amare. Wade is an elite player, the reason why he would help Atlanta is thanks to Marvin all around skills and we can sign a platoon center and move Horford to PF if we have to deal Smith. That will give us:

Bibby/Wade/Marvin/Horford/Center

I have always felt Marvin could average 18 per with the Hawks, with Wade, he could average in the 20's. It's possible, Marvin still has a lot untapped potential. I don't see him reaching his potential as a #3 but as a #2 with an elite player, I believe he could.

[Diesel]

Lol what? What does Marvin have to do with it?

Why isn't Joe playing Sf?

[EazyRoc]

It's funny. Everybody wants to add Wade, when they know good and well why the BIG 3 are better than us . . . .the frontline.

Unless you team Wade with another all-star player ( preferably a PF or C ), he's not winning jack. That's why when this discussion of swapping Wade for JJ came up, I said that we'd still probably be the #4 team in the East, with maybe 55 wins ( instead of 50 ).

The problem folks, is that those teams have better frontlines than we do. People just have to accept that.

So the only way we can beat those teams, is to do what the 2004 Pistons did, and become the BEST defensive team in the NBA. People can talk about Wade, or offensive systems, or coaches all they want. But this team's only chance ( as constructed now ), is to be lights out defensively.

But it goes back to the guy that no one wants to trade . . . Josh Smith.

His development is the key to everything here, as long as we have a good backcourt. If he doesn't play bigger, we can't advance as far as we need to be.

And his presece on the squad prevents Al Horford from possibly developing into a good PF, because we need him to play center.

But no one wants to trade the most exciting player on the team.

A trade for Amare Stoudamire, while keeping JJ . . wins you more games and gives us a better shot at challenging the BIG 3 . . . than losng JJ and adding Wade. At least then, you have a legitimate big man that people have to account for. You double JJ, and Amare will have a field day. You double Amare, and that opens everything up for the shooters. His presence also may give Horford a chance to play more PF, to showcase what he can do.

With our frontline inconsistency problems, I'd even go to say that a team consisting of Marcus Camby and Dejuan Blair, would be better for the Hawks, than Jamal Crawford and Jeff Teague. A frontline of Horford, Smoove, Camby, Zaza, and Blair would cause all kinds of problems for people. It'll also give us a better array of bodies to throw at the frontlines that the BIG 3 possess.

But everybody loves offense in A-Town. Rather look like Dallas and lose, than to look like old Detroit and win. Complain when the Hawks win 82 - 79 . . because they'd rather see the Hawks win 111- 106.

Until this team as constructed right now, start "selling out" on the defensive end, and start relentlessly crashing the boards, we'll always be a good team on the cusp of being a great team . . . but we'll never get there.

It is what it is folks.

I disagree. We could give the Celtics problems now as we're currently constructed. I think swapping out Wade for JJ would put us above the Celtics by a long shot. Sure, we could use an all star big, but a player like Wade would make Josh Smith and Horford much better. He's a better passer and penetrator than JJ, so that means much easier shots for our bigs, especially when one has enough talent to be an All Star.

[Buzzard]

Why isn't Joe playing Sf?

Basketball 101 from elementary school:

The head coach decides the starting lineup.

The players play the game at their assighned positions.

The referees "referee" the game trying to ensure it is played fairly within the rules of the game.

I cant beleive this question has to be even asked on our teams main forum. No wonder other fans laugh at us...

Edited October 28, 2009 by Buzzard

[mrhonline]

Why isn't Joe playing Sf?

He actually does that quite a bit already. 82games had JJ at 22% of the Hawks' minutes at SF last year. That's quite a bit already...

And Marvin plays the 4 some, too.

[Buzzard]

He actually does that quite a bit already. 82games had JJ at 22% of the Hawks' minutes at SF last year. That's quite a bit already...

And Marvin plays the 4 some, too.

He wants to see Marvin on the bench as our sixth man or traded. I do not have a problem with either provided we win. But doing that at the expense of defense and wins is just player hate. Evans is not as good as Marvin and a backcout of Crawford and Bibby would be defenseless.