My take on "The problem with Marvin"

[Diesel]

It's only the 4th game and somebody has gotten the excuse machine crunk up for Marvin.

I am shaking my head because this is so predictable. Now... it's the coaches fault that Marvin can't produce. Our offensive scheme is all wrong and we don't use Marvin right?? OK, let's move Joe to the 3... put Crawford at 2 and let's see how bad the coaching scheme is on Joe.

The bottom line is this. Everyone is so enamored with Marvin on paper and what he's supposed to be that they have failed to look at what he really is...

He is, what I thought he was...

He's a dime a dozen Sf who is not so special.

He doesn't create for himself.

He is clumsy.

He doesn't handle the ball so well.

He's a poor man's Tim Thomas.

But we will make excuse after excuse for him and then will say things like He's shown flashes ...

It's contract 2... Year 6.

[DrReality]

It would be nice if the offense ran a play for him.

[Gray Mule]

Marvin's problem is:

He ain't great. Face it. He's just average. Now, being an average player in the NBA is nice - - Really nice.

How many of us would love to be considered an average player in the NBA? Most of us would resemble

that remark. Average player in the NBA. Nice company.

Marvin does many things good. That's why we see him as average. Name one thing he does really great.

He is far superior than your average NBA player in doing what? Along with his average physical ability

and NBA size, his IQ seems to be average, too. He's not brilliant. He's not dumb. He's just average.

From his draft position, Marvin was / is expected to be great. Being drafted here doesn't make him great.

Since we all know the history of this, we all resent the fact that the Hawks didn't draft a star. Go ahead.

Admit it. Hawks had the chance and blew it. We're all hurt. We can't take out our flustrations on the GM who

did the drafting nor can we take it out on the Hawks orginization. That leaves us one target for all this pent

up feelings. Marvin Willliams!

Marvin had nothing to do with where he was picked. Doesn't matter. Marvin had nothing to do with which

team he was going to play for. Doesn't matter. Marvin is a good, average NBA foreward. Doesn't matter.

If we could get over what we missed and appreciate what we've got, we would be happier. But, we won't

do that. We're all jealous of what the other teams got in that draft and what we didn't get and we'll NEVER

get over it. And, when we see our average NBA player, who plays like an average NBA player and who gets

paid like an average NBA player, we are reminded of this. It's a sore spot that will never hal.

:conversation:

[Kimsey]

Average is nice by non nba standards but we need an outstanding option at the 3. The difference between MW and a guy like Ariza is one's a self starter and the other one isn't. One takes risks for a great game and the other has a 9 to 5 approach.

[gsuteke]

I appreciate the sense of self control that is being shown here in respect to keeping this a drama-free thread in spite of the miscreants.

[coachx]

Lets keep it factual:

Game #5 Marvin played Norcioni most of the night:

Marvin:

13 point / 6 rebounds / 6-9 FG / 1-1 3FG / 1 steal / 1 block / 1 TO / 30 minutes

Norcioni

14 points / 6 rebounds / 5-10 FGs / 1-3 3FG / 1 steal / 1 TO / 32 minutes

My opinion:

Looks like a draw to me. If our "weakest link" is playing a guy like Norcioni to an even draw then there is not much to whine about from my perspective.

[gsuteke]

Lets keep it factual:

Game #5 Marvin played Norcioni most of the night:

Marvin:

13 point / 6 rebounds / 6-9 FG / 1-1 3FG / 1 steal / 1 block / 1 TO / 30 minutes

Norcioni

14 points / 6 rebounds / 5-10 FGs / 1-3 3FG / 1 steal / 1 TO / 32 minutes

My opinion:

Looks like a draw to me. If our "weakest link" is playing a guy like Norcioni to an even draw then there is not much to whine about from my perspective.

And most would probably agree -

However my intent was not to examine Marvin's current production or spot in the pecking order. My intent was to put forth a hypothesis in respect to how we can improve the Hawks as a team by using Marvin in a different fashion than he's currently being used in.

I've seen some good, factual posts here on both sides - however nobody has convinced me yet that my original idea is out in left field.

[Diesel]

I appreciate the sense of self control that is being shown here in respect to keeping this a drama-free thread in spite of the miscreants.

Those darn miscreants. Always keeping up their drama. I wish they would talk honestly about Marvin the way that we do. I mean, it's really good that we can have differing opinions about Marvin and not resort to name calling and stereotyping? In fact, the fact that there are differing opinions that are not shunned, held down, or ridiculed is the attribute that makes hawksquawk different. I'm glad that some of us know that and we do not get so one-sided with our own view that we create an us versus them atmosphere on this messageboard.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Diesel

[Diesel]

Think about this -

Marvin can post up SFs with ease with his body type.

Marvin can catch the ball from 10 to 14 feet out and face his man up. His handles aren't the best in the world but he's demonstrated he can drive the basketball if he chooses to do so. By the time he's in the cylinder in traffic he may have the ball stripped before getting a shot off 5 times out of 10 but he'll also draw a foul 4 of those times in that situation. You know this, you've seen it over and over again as a Hawks fan.

Marvin is our "Big" that initiates contact with defenders. When Marvin hits the lane the whistle is sure to follow.

So why isn't Marvin posting up as opposed to camping out on the 3 point line in the corner waiting for the ball to get swung around to him as the shot clock is expiring?

Short answer. All of those fouls that Marvin get are a result of eager defenders... It's like a shark seeing a bleeding wounded fish... they can't help but go in and go after it. Most of fishing is built on using a lure and technique to fool a fish into goiing after what looks like a wounded fish. Well, as you said, Marvin's handles are not great... but the other thing that Marvin has is that he's clumsy. He has a very jerky, sporadic, irregular movement when he tries to move and dribble.. A lot of times, he ends up just running right into the defender because the defender is going after the ball like a shark after a wounded fish. But last year, I noted that Marvin was starting to get less calls on the drive and more charges called against him. I don't know if opponents saw Marvin duck his head and just decided to stand in... or if Refs stopped having so much pity for Marvin and started calling him for bulling into people. Putting him in the post (im my opinion) would not increase his visits to the FT line more than it would get him stripped. IN watching these first few games, I have noted that Marvin doesn't do anything on the inside unless it's on the break.

[coachx]

And most would probably agree -

However my intent was not to examine Marvin's current production or spot in the pecking order. My intent was to put forth a hypothesis in respect to how we can improve the Hawks as a team by using Marvin in a different fashion than he's currently being used in.

I've seen some good, factual posts here on both sides - however nobody has convinced me yet that my original idea is out in left field.

I am assuming you mean whether to start Marvin or Crawford..........or at least that is what most posters are focused on today.

OK.............Here is my hypothesis / opinion:

1. The Hawks weak link is on defense and not offense to start this season. Fact: we are giving up 102 ppg.

2. Starting Crawford over Marvin hurts our defense. (opinion)

3. A Bibby / Crawford backcourt would be one of the worst defensive backcourts in the league. (opinion)

4. We have an undersized frontcourt (fact)

5. Starting Crawford at SG with Bibby would also give us an undersized backcourt on most nights.

6. Placing Marvin on the bench, in favor of Crawford, would hurt our front court defense and rebounding and make us smaller all at the same time. (fact)

7. Crawford is flourishing in a 6th man role. (fact)

8. Look back at many championship team..........many had 6th men on their team who could score the rock and were offense oriented players:

early 80s Lakers - Bob Macadoo

80's Celtics - ML Carr 14 ppg / Wedman 15 ppg / McHale averaged 18ppf of the bench in 83-84

88-90 Pistons - Vinnie Johnson / Mark Aguire

90's Rockets - Sam Cassell

90's Bulls - Toni Kucok

00's - present Spurs - Mano Ginobli

00's -present Lakers - Lamar Odom

9. The East is stacked with SFs we will likely see in the playoffs: James, Butler, Lewis, Turkelough, Prince, Deng, Pierce......plus the ones out West we see twice a year: Anthony Durant, Artest, etc. I'd rather see Marvin matching with these SFs to start a game and have JJ on their starting SGs then the alternative.

Edited November 5, 2009 by coachx

[Traceman]

I am assuming you mean whether to start Marvin or Crawford..........or at least that is what most posters are focused on today.

OK.............Here is my hypothesis / opinion:

1. The Hawks weak link is on defense and not offense to start this season. Fact: we are giving up 102 ppg.

2. Starting Crawford over Marvin hurts our defense. (opinion)

3. A Bibby / Crawford backcourt would be one of the worst defensive backcourts in the league. (opinion)

4. We have an undersized frontcourt (fact)

5. Starting Crawford at SG with Bibby would also give us an undersized backcourt on most nights.

6. Placing Marvin on the bench, in favor of Crawford, would hurt our front court defense and rebounding and make us smaller all at the same time. (fact)

7. Crawford is flourishing in a 6th man role. (fact)

8. Look back at many championship team..........many had 6th men on their team who could score the rock and were offense oriented players:

early 80s Lakers - Bob Macadoo

80's Celtics - ML Carr 14 ppg / Wedman 15 ppg / McHale averaged 18ppf of the bench in 83-84

88-90 Pistons - Vinnie Johnson / Mark Aguire

90's Rockets - Sam Cassell

90's Bulls - Toni Kucok

00's - present Spurs - Mano Ginobli

00's -present Lakers - Lamar Odom

9. The East is stacked with SFs we will likely see in the playoffs: James, Butler, Lewis, Turkelough, Prince, Deng, Pierce......plus the ones out West we see twice a year: Anthony Durant, Artest, etc. I'd rather see Marvin matching with these SFs to start a game and have JJ on their starting SGs then the alternative.

Bottom line, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! We are 4-1with the loss being to the defending champs in their building after they had just suffered a disappointing loss. We are #5 in the NBA in scoring, #8 in FG%, #10 in APG and unbelievably, we are #1 in FT% after being such a poor FT shooting team last year. If we start to struggle at some point, looking at making changes makes sense. But at 4-1? Can't see even discussing it.

[coachx]

So why isn't Marvin posting up as opposed to camping out on the 3 point line in the corner waiting for the ball to get swung around to him as the shot clock is expiring?

I've seen some good, factual posts here on both sides - however nobody has convinced me yet that my original idea is out in left field.

I guess this is what you meant by your "original idea ?"

I would assume he is not posting up often b/c Horford and Smoove cannot spread the floor, as perimeter threats, to give a SF room to post up very often. It would basically clog the paint.

That would essential put Al Horford at the 3 point line with Smoove instead of Marvin at the 3 point line to spread the floor. Now if we had a Brad Miller or Okur ,like big, who could stretch the floor, then that would work BUT the defense may switch the bigger guy on Marvin and let the smaller guy stand by Miller / Okur on the perimeter. That is how opponents defend Boozer / Okur in Utah.

Maybe I'm missing this "orignal idea" your refering too and am just sticking to the easy "Captain Obvious" stuff.

Edited November 5, 2009 by coachx

[drzachary]

Here's my take on the "problem with Marvin:"

It is fictional.

He is what he is: a slightly above-average small forward who, like other NBA players, has strengths and weaknesses. He's not a lost cause or a bust, but he's not a superstar either. None of these things are a problem.

[coachx]

I guess this is what you meant by your "original idea ?"

I would assume he is not posting up often b/c Horford and Smoove cannot spread the floor, as perimeter threats, to give a SF room to post up very often. It would basically clog the paint.

That would essential put Al Horford at the 3 point line with Smoove instead of Marvin at the 3 point line to spread the floor. Now if we had a Brad Miller or Okur ,like big, who could stretch the floor, then that would work BUT the defense may switch the bigger guy on Marvin and let the smaller guy stand by Miller / Okur on the perimeter. That is how opponents defend Boozer / Okur in Utah.

Maybe I'm missing this "orignal idea" your refering too and am just sticking to the easy "Captain Obvious" stuff.

Now the Bulls were able to pull it off with Jordan being they primary post option from the SG spot since they were loaded with bigs who could shoot like Wennington, Kukoc, & Longley to mix with snipers like Paxon, Hodges, and Kerr.

Edited November 5, 2009 by coachx

[Buzzard]

It's only the 4th game and somebody has gotten the excuse machine crunk up for Marvin.

I am shaking my head because this is so predictable. Now... it's the coaches fault that Marvin can't produce. Our offensive scheme is all wrong and we don't use Marvin right?? OK, let's move Joe to the 3... put Crawford at 2 and let's see how bad the coaching scheme is on Joe.

The bottom line is this. Everyone is so enamored with Marvin on paper and what he's supposed to be that they have failed to look at what he really is...

He is, what I thought he was...

He's a dime a dozen Sf who is not so special.

He doesn't create for himself.

He is clumsy.

He doesn't handle the ball so well.

He's a poor man's Tim Thomas.

But we will make excuse after excuse for him and then will say things like He's shown flashes ...

It's contract 2... Year 6.

How dare Marvin have a shooting slump?The drama queen machine is in full force ..... We are 4 and 1, 2 and 1 on the road, our a new peices seem to be jelling together, and the one player who was in a shooting slump looks to have shot his way out of it last night. So take off your skirt queenies, turn off the machine, all is well in Hawk land for most of us.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Buzzard

[Traceman]

Here's my take on the "problem with Marvin:"

It is fictional.

He is what he is: a slightly above-average small forward who, like other NBA players, has strengths and weaknesses. He's not a lost cause or a bust, but he's not a superstar either. None of these things are a problem.

Well said Dr. Z. Marvin is no superstar and never will be. He is a slightly above average NBA SF with the potential to improve. By all accounts, he's a great guy, he has a great attitude and he's a team player. We have him signed long term to a VERY reasonable contract. What is the problem?

[Buzzard]

Average is nice by non nba standards but we need an outstanding option at the 3. The difference between MW and a guy like Ariza is one's a self starter and the other one isn't. One takes risks for a great game and the other has a 9 to 5 approach.

Is the "we need a outstanding option at the 3" some unwritten championship rule requirement I have not heard of? Because most of those types of rules I have heard of are reserved for bigs.

[gsuteke]

Short answer. All of those fouls that Marvin get are a result of eager defenders... It's like a shark seeing a bleeding wounded fish... they can't help but go in and go after it. Most of fishing is built on using a lure and technique to fool a fish into goiing after what looks like a wounded fish. Well, as you said, Marvin's handles are not great... but the other thing that Marvin has is that he's clumsy. He has a very jerky, sporadic, irregular movement when he tries to move and dribble.. A lot of times, he ends up just running right into the defender because the defender is going after the ball like a shark after a wounded fish. But last year, I noted that Marvin was starting to get less calls on the drive and more charges called against him. I don't know if opponents saw Marvin duck his head and just decided to stand in... or if Refs stopped having so much pity for Marvin and started calling him for bulling into people. Putting him in the post (im my opinion) would not increase his visits to the FT line more than it would get him stripped. IN watching these first few games, I have noted that Marvin doesn't do anything on the inside unless it's on the break.

That is the most disengenuous poppy co(k I've seen on the site in years.

So these defenders that foul Marvin are "victims" of their own aggressiveness?

We have a word around the NBA that we call that - a foul.

Marvin is pretty damn good at drawing them.

Edited November 6, 2009 by gsuteke