Portland vs. Atlanta Game 2 (11/16/09)

[exodus]

Sad but true. I doubt Atlanta will ever have more than a half empty arena 90% of the time in the regular season.

You may not see it but everyone else sees how you're far more critical of Horford than other players.

I have dogged smith for years for his long range jacking and his stupid turnovers. I dogged Childress all the time and said the Hawks should let him walk long before they actually did.

The problem is that people had very unrealistic expectations of Horford when he was drafted so they aren't willing to admit he isn't the star they thought he would be.

If you actually look at what i say about Horford it has always been the same thing, that he needs to use his speed on offense and take advantage of the slower players guarding him. Watching him try to back down guys 30 pounds heavier or watching him stand wide open 18 feet from the rim squeezing the ball with his elbows out is just as annoying to me as watching Smith shoot 3s. When he uses his speed he has success. When he doesn't he disappears on offense.

It isn't like i have been saying he should be benched or traded. Putting me in the same breath as Diesel is just plain dumb.

[Duff_Man]

How can anyone dislike Al Horford? He brings a lot of toughness and energy to the team. He's a fantastic teammate and really enjoys playing. He's been collecting a ton of rebounds this year and is coming around offensively. His little running hook and short turn-around jumper are falling more often.

His FT shooting would be nicer at about 75% instead of 71. That's about the only problem I have. His 2 blocks a game are a nice addition.

[exodus]

How can anyone dislike Al Horford? He brings a lot of toughness and energy to the team. He's a fantastic teammate and really enjoys playing. He's been collecting a ton of rebounds this year and is coming around offensively. His little running hook and short turn-around jumper are falling more often.

His FT shooting would be nicer at about 75% instead of 71. That's about the only problem I have. His 2 blocks a game are a nice addition.

I read somewhere that he actually worked on his shotblocking over the summer. He said he wanted to stay down on pump fakes which would allow him to block more shots.

Just once i would like to see him get the ball 18 feet away, drive and put up a fake. He is so much faster than the guys who guard him he could score routinely if he did this.

[hawkman]

Please. Horford is still struggling badly to finish around the basket when he can't dunk. He is shooting only 45.8% on inside shots when he can't dunk. That is pretty far from HOF production.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09ATL9.HTM

In contrast Smith is shooting 66.7% on shots inside when he can't dunk.

So, first it was Chillz and now it's Horford. Ex, you need to stop this before you ruin any credibility you have. :shake_puter:

[exodus]

So, first it was Chillz and now it's Horford. Ex, you need to stop this before you ruin any credibility you have. :shake_puter:

Man some people here are seriously reading impaired. I wanted Childress gone and said so many times. Please point out where i ever said that about Horford.

All i want to see is for him to use his speed to his advantage on offense which he hasn't done much. I don't see how that is hating on him but i guess the people who thought he would be the next Boozer/Alonzo/Amare get their panties in a wad when anyone says anything critical of Horford.

I used to dog Smith constantly about his 3s and dumb turnovers but that was ok since he wasn't a sacred cow like Horford.

[Buzzard]

Man some people here are seriously reading impaired. I wanted Childress gone and said so many times. Please point out where i ever said that about Horford.

All i want to see is for him to use his speed to his advantage on offense which he hasn't done much. I don't see how that is hating on him but i guess the people who thought he would be the next Boozer/Alonzo/Amare get their panties in a wad when anyone says anything critical of Horford.

I used to dog Smith constantly about his 3s and dumb turnovers but that was ok since he wasn't a sacred cow like Horford.

I don't see Horf ever scoring like those guys. But if not, Horf will not get an 80 to a 100 million dollar contract either. Horfs 3rd season numbers are 13.5, 10.2, and 1.9...Boozers 2nd season numbers were 15.5, 11.7, and .7. It was after his 2nd season that Booz got that crazy offer from Utah.

Horf may never reach 18 or more ppg as Boozer, Amare, and Alonzo did; But 15, 10, and 2 is possible and rock solid IMO. Its just his 3rd year and he is well on his way to showing great improvement all the way across the board. We all would like to see more improvement; but I do think the improvement Al is showing in his 3rd season is more than acceptable.

Do you know how long its been since we had a center who averaged a dbl dbl for a season? A lot of people on this board were probably not even shaving it was that long ago. Lets enjoy this while we can....

Edited November 17, 2009 by Buzzard

[f_town]

Another great win. The defense kept us in it during the horrible 2nd and 3rd quarters for our offense. Josh and Horford are a terrific duo. Marvin's shot is still missing, but he played great defense on Roy and Aldridge. Man that was fun to watch. Only downside is I still haven't done any of the work I was planning to do while I watched the game.

i was at the game, Marvin played terrible defense on Roy

it was when Woody put JJ on him that we slowed him down finally

Go Hawks!

[exodus]

I don't see Horf ever scoring like those guys. But if not, Horf will not get an 80 to a 100 million dollar contract either. Horfs 3rd season numbers are 13.5, 10.2, and 1.9...Boozers 2nd season numbers were 15.5, 11.7, and .7. It was after his 2nd season that Booz got that crazy offer from Utah.

Horf may never reach 18 or more ppg as Boozer, Amare, and Alonzo did; But 15, 10, and 2 is possible and rock solid IMO. Its just his 3rd year and he is well on his way to showing great improvement all the way across the board. We all would like to see more improvement; but I do think the improvement Al is showing in his 3rd season is more than acceptable.

Do you know how long its been since we had a center who averaged a dbl dbl for a season? A lot of people on this board were probably not even shaving it was that long ago. Lets enjoy this while we can....

I agree that 15/10/2 would be fine, which i said when he was drafted. But people acted like i was hating on him because i didn't think he was going to be a 20/10 player. Now people think i am hating on him when i say that i dont think he has been fantastic so far and that he needs to improve on offense.

Some people either can't read or they just see what they want to see.

[exodus]

i was at the game, Marvin played terrible defense on Roy

it was when Woody put JJ on him that we slowed him down finally

Go Hawks!

LOL @ this. "slowed him down finally" dude had only 17 points. Roy got off the same contested jumper on JJ that he did on Marvin it just didn't go in. Marvin is the reason Roy was so quiet all game. And one of Roys late baskets was a drive on Smith, not Marvin.

Unfortunately Marvin has been a train wreck on offense.

[Diesel]

Marvin's shot is still off but he defended Roy very well in the 4th quarter and that helped JJ focus on offense and he just happended to get hot at that point.

It was the first game I've gone to all season and what a game it was. An over time thriller with a buzzer beater 3 to send it to OT. Then the Hawks prevail !

This is not true. He was riding on Roy's bus to school in the fourth. It was Joe who came on late to make the last few good stops on Roy. When Marivn was on Roy, he gave him the lane. Then he fouled Roy and gave him free throws.

[Admin]

This is not true. He was riding on Roy's bus to school in the fourth. It was Joe who came on late to make the last few good stops on Roy. When Marivn was on Roy, he gave him the lane. Then he fouled Roy and gave him free throws.

See Exodus' post above. Roy was getting the same shots over Joe as he was Marvin but they didn't fall against JJ. They both played solid D on Roy last night!

[jerrywest]

See Exodus' post above. Roy was getting the same shots over Joe as he was Marvin but they didn't fall against JJ. They both played solid D on Roy last night!

True but Roy liked to be guarded by Marvin more. Several times they set picks so that JJ switches and Marvin ends up guarding Roy. Marvin wasn't as suffocating as JJ.

[Diesel]

I agree that 15/10/2 would be fine, which i said when he was drafted. But people acted like i was hating on him because i didn't think he was going to be a 20/10 player. Now people think i am hating on him when i say that i dont think he has been fantastic so far and that he needs to improve on offense.

Some people either can't read or they just see what they want to see.

Let's visit the Ex files on Horford... Shall we?

"It is pretty sad that horford isnt even looking to score when he catches the ball 15-18 feet from the basket and Big Z is 5 feet off him. "

"Horford doesn't average 10 rebounds on a bad rebounding team so i see no reason to believe he will get up to 11-12 rebounds per game. He's no Buck Williams."

"People keep using Horford's position as an excuse but the bottom line is that he has spent time at the 4 with no noticable increase in production. Horford should easily be able to score against bigger, slower players but he doesn't because he isn't a scorer. "

"The Hawks were 25th in the league in rebounding ratio which takes pace into account. The Hawks are a poor rebounding team period. Put him on an average rebounding team that plays at a faster pace and i don't see how that helps him."

"I have no idea what defensive rebounding percentage is. I doubt anyone else does either which is why nobody is using it. Horford ranked 20th in defensive rebounding ratio. http://insider.espn....mp;seasonType=3. Considering how bad the rest of the team is at defensive rebounding his numbers are nothing special at all. If he was playing next to Howard or Camby his numbers would probably look a bit different."

"The bottom line is that right now Horford is a role player playing out of position, which hurts his man D. He is a good rebounder and good team defender but that's it. I look at him as being similar to Marvin. Both have no star potential but both are good role players. The problem is that we need more star power."

"Unlike Horford Conley is actually showing noticable improvement. He is averaging nearly 15 ppg since the end of January.

Meanwhile Horford can't score for crap in the post, doesn't beat guys off the dribble and his jumper has been clanging off the rim. He basically doesn't score other than when he is spoon fed. He can't guard big post players either. He is just the second best 4 on the roster. One thing for sure is that right now Conley/Stuckey are vastly outproducing Horford/Law and the gap will probably be wider next year. We don't even know who will be playing the point for the Hawks next year. if the Hawks had drafted Conley/Stuckey the pg spot would no longer be a concern."

The Ex files have been brought to you by... Diesel .

[exodus]

Let's visit the Ex files on Horford... Shall we?

"It is pretty sad that horford isnt even looking to score when he catches the ball 15-18 feet from the basket and Big Z is 5 feet off him. "

"Horford doesn't average 10 rebounds on a bad rebounding team so i see no reason to believe he will get up to 11-12 rebounds per game. He's no Buck Williams."

"People keep using Horford's position as an excuse but the bottom line is that he has spent time at the 4 with no noticable increase in production. Horford should easily be able to score against bigger, slower players but he doesn't because he isn't a scorer. "

"The Hawks were 25th in the league in rebounding ratio which takes pace into account. The Hawks are a poor rebounding team period. Put him on an average rebounding team that plays at a faster pace and i don't see how that helps him."

"I have no idea what defensive rebounding percentage is. I doubt anyone else does either which is why nobody is using it. Horford ranked 20th in defensive rebounding ratio. http://insider.espn....mp;seasonType=3. Considering how bad the rest of the team is at defensive rebounding his numbers are nothing special at all. If he was playing next to Howard or Camby his numbers would probably look a bit different."

"The bottom line is that right now Horford is a role player playing out of position, which hurts his man D. He is a good rebounder and good team defender but that's it. I look at him as being similar to Marvin. Both have no star potential but both are good role players. The problem is that we need more star power."

"Unlike Horford Conley is actually showing noticable improvement. He is averaging nearly 15 ppg since the end of January.

Meanwhile Horford can't score for crap in the post, doesn't beat guys off the dribble and his jumper has been clanging off the rim. He basically doesn't score other than when he is spoon fed. He can't guard big post players either. He is just the second best 4 on the roster. One thing for sure is that right now Conley/Stuckey are vastly outproducing Horford/Law and the gap will probably be wider next year. We don't even know who will be playing the point for the Hawks next year. if the Hawks had drafted Conley/Stuckey the pg spot would no longer be a concern."

The Ex files have been brought to you by... Diesel .

Please point out which of those quotes is inconsistent with what i have said in this thread.

i also find it interesting that you didn't provide any links. Typical Diesel. it wasn't long ago that you were accusing me of taking your quotes out of context even though i provided the links. you are taking it a step further by posting my quotes without ANY context. But i would expect nothing less from you.

Edited November 17, 2009 by exodus

[Atlantaholic]

I have to admit, I'm a big fan of the Diesel vs. Exodus rivalry...

Though, I won't admit who I always cheer for

[RMJ]

Let's visit the Ex files on Horford... Shall we?

"It is pretty sad that horford isnt even looking to score when he catches the ball 15-18 feet from the basket and Big Z is 5 feet off him. "

"Horford doesn't average 10 rebounds on a bad rebounding team so i see no reason to believe he will get up to 11-12 rebounds per game. He's no Buck Williams."

"People keep using Horford's position as an excuse but the bottom line is that he has spent time at the 4 with no noticable increase in production. Horford should easily be able to score against bigger, slower players but he doesn't because he isn't a scorer. "

"The Hawks were 25th in the league in rebounding ratio which takes pace into account. The Hawks are a poor rebounding team period. Put him on an average rebounding team that plays at a faster pace and i don't see how that helps him."

"I have no idea what defensive rebounding percentage is. I doubt anyone else does either which is why nobody is using it. Horford ranked 20th in defensive rebounding ratio. http://insider.espn....mp;seasonType=3. Considering how bad the rest of the team is at defensive rebounding his numbers are nothing special at all. If he was playing next to Howard or Camby his numbers would probably look a bit different."

"The bottom line is that right now Horford is a role player playing out of position, which hurts his man D. He is a good rebounder and good team defender but that's it. I look at him as being similar to Marvin. Both have no star potential but both are good role players. The problem is that we need more star power."

"Unlike Horford Conley is actually showing noticable improvement. He is averaging nearly 15 ppg since the end of January.

Meanwhile Horford can't score for crap in the post, doesn't beat guys off the dribble and his jumper has been clanging off the rim. He basically doesn't score other than when he is spoon fed. He can't guard big post players either. He is just the second best 4 on the roster. One thing for sure is that right now Conley/Stuckey are vastly outproducing Horford/Law and the gap will probably be wider next year. We don't even know who will be playing the point for the Hawks next year. if the Hawks had drafted Conley/Stuckey the pg spot would no longer be a concern."

The Ex files have been brought to you by... Diesel .

It's against the board rules to criticize Horford or Smith.

[jerrywest]

It's against the board rules to criticize Horford or Smith.

Whoever convince Smoove not to shoot 3s and go for rebounds is a hero in my book. Rest of us who yelled at him for it - my hats off to y'all.

Whoever can convince Al to utilize his strengths and stop backing down Oden/Howard is appreciated.

Whoever can convince JJ to not become Joe the Pounder is appreciated.

Whoever can convince crawford to take it to the rim when his shots aren't falling is appreciated.

Whoever convinced Bibby and Mo Evans to add huge muscles this summer is appreciated.

Whoever convinced Zaza to learn to dunk this summer is appreciated.

Whoever convinced Marvin to become a 3 point shooter last summer is appreciated. Did you do that Diesel?!? Thanks.

Whoever convinced Crawford to learn to play D all out is appreciated. Thanks Woody.

Edited November 18, 2009 by jerrywest

[DrReality]

I was thinking we shot so lousy for three quarters against the Blaizers and still won. That's a good sign.

and I think Horf still has a lot of ceiling left.

[Atlantaholic]

I was thinking we shot so lousy for three quarters against the Blaizers and still won. That's a good sign.

and I think Horf still has a lot of ceiling left.

I'm starting to get that feeling also... The dude is an absolute demon in transition and although his half court offensive game is lacking, if he could just add 1 or 2 go to moves (his hook shot is already coming along nicely this year) he could potentially average around 17 ppg in the next few years IMO.

I hope I'm not jinxing us guys, but the future may be bright for the Hawks. I mean Josh and Horford are still freaking babies by NBA standards and they are starting to take over games on a nightly basis.

[exodus]

I'm starting to get that feeling also... The dude is an absolute demon in transition and although his half court offensive game is lacking, if he could just add 1 or 2 go to moves (his hook shot is already coming along nicely this year) he could potentially average around 17 ppg in the next few years IMO.

I hope I'm not jinxing us guys, but the future may be bright for the Hawks. I mean Josh and Horford are still freaking babies by NBA standards and they are starting to take over games on a nightly basis.

The key issue is whether or not Smith/Horford can guard the other teams bigs better than they can guard Smith/Horford. The answer should be yes assuming our guys play the right way.

i think Horford can be an Amare-lite player on offense but he has a ways to go.He is not an intuitive player on offense and that will always limit his scoring somewhat.

If you noticed against Portland when he got the ball with his back to the basket he went into his move much quicker than usual which is what he needs to do. Instead of trying to back someone down with 3 or 4 dribbles he was spinning quickly and going into his move, forcing the opposing big to actually move laterally. I would prefer to see him face up and drive since they can't put a hand on you when you face up but whatever. Now if he could just throw up some fakes....