Josh Smith shot chart (via RealGM)

[mrhonline]

A lateral move that trades Marvin for another middle tier SF really accomplishes nothing in my book.

It saves money for Horford's extension, something that I've seen no one on this site take into consideration but myself...

[coachx]

It saves money for Horford's extension, something that I've seen no one on this site take into consideration but myself...

Good point !

Edited January 5, 2010 by coachx

[spotatl]

I suppose the question is whether people think the ASG would actually pay the luxury tax to keep this team together. I just don't see it happening so in my book Marvin is a luxury too expensive to keep.

[mrhonline]

I suppose the question is whether people think the ASG would actually pay the luxury tax to keep this team together. I just don't see it happening so in my book Marvin is a luxury too expensive to keep.

I totally agree that it will never happen.

I've been saying for two years and will continue to say it because I'm obnoxious - Horford's extension will signal the end of the Hawks' forward depth. They simply cannot afford to keep all three.

I doubt the Hawks change anything this year, and their off-season focus will be on JJ, Woodson, and Horford's extension. But, by this time next year, we'll all be discussing the inevitable trade of Marvin or Josh. Since it's likely to be a salary dump, I'd prefer it to be Marvin.

[mrhonline]

Forgot that the T-wolves also have the rights to Nikola Pekovic, a bruising center in Europe. He's probably the best low-post scorer internationally. He'll command an MLE-type contract to come over, but he's likely worth it. (Think Curry without the craziness).

That would sweeten the pot a bit for the Hawks.

[Plainview1981]

17 for 78 on jumpers...Wow. Perhaps we need to urge him to give up those, too...

This team is flawed... If you move Horford to his natural position you will have to move Josh to SF and get probably a not so great player at centre... If you trade Josh Smith or put him on the bench then you have taken away the full effectiveness of your best defensive player.... It seems like a near lose/lose situation. Somebody suggested to make a play for Camby, but you would probably have to give up too much and people should remember he is 36 years old. This is what happens when a team is poorly built. One of these tweeners needs to go.

[spotatl]

Sort of interesting to think about whether the team would be better off with Crawford or with Flip and 8 million dollars in expiring contracts to use in a trade. So many teams are trying to get 2010 caproom that the Hawks would be in PRIME position to upgrade the roster.

[AHF]

* Many have argued that Josh needs to stop shooting jumpers for years. They are right. Josh taking a jumper is giving the defense exactly what they want.

* Josh should never play SF. He does not do well in the traditional SF role on offense and struggles on D on the perimeter which also neutralizes his very high value as an interior help defender.

* If mrhonline's assumption that the ASG will not pay for all three of our young frontline players, Marvin is the most expedible in my eyes by a long-shot and should be easily tradeable with his contract. I think Horford and Smith can be a special combination and would not let them go without getting back an absolute stud. I see this a wholly separate issue from whether we would want to deal Josh for a center like Kaman (no) or Lopez (yes). If we can't afford Horf, Smoove and Marvin then we can't afford Kaman, Horf and Marvin.

[Atlantaholic]

Josh + Horford IS our team. Kaman is putrid defender, and not even a great rebounder. (slightly better than Josh, way worse than Horford). He puts up 21 points on 51% shooting on a craptastic team. His Per is way lower than Josh's and lower than Horfords. Kaman is older, makes more money, and turns the ball over a lot more than either Horf or Smith. Also, he does not pass the ball. At all.

The only C/PF I would trade Josh or Horf for (looking towards the future) is Chris Bosh, and mabye Brooke Lopez and Andrew Bynum. I mean, those would be the only players that would make us better going forward than what we currently have.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Atlantaholic

[Atlantaholic]

The flaws of this team are mainly at PG, SF and Coaching. PF and C have been by far our most productive positions, and during our 11-2 they were the key. Even during our slump the weakness of our team resides mainly in our perimeter defense, or in our guards inability to stop penetration

[coachx]

Josh + Horford IS our team. Kaman is putrid defender, and not even a great rebounder. (slightly better than Josh, way worse than Horford). He puts up 21 points on 51% shooting on a craptastic team. His Per is way lower than Josh's and lower than Horfords. Kaman is older, makes more money, and turns the ball over a lot more than either Horf or Smith. Also, he does not pass the ball. At all.

The only C/PF I would trade Josh or Horf for (looking towards the future) is Chris Bosh, and mabye Brooke Lopez and Andrew Bynum. I mean, those would be the only players that would make us better going forward than what we currently have.

The 3 you like.........we all like. Its doubtful they are ever moved.

1. Kaman actually makes less them Smoove.

2. Kaman is older then Smoove but is only 27. I think Kaman will be more effective at 33 then Smoove will at 30. When Smoove loses his hops he will lose his entire game.

3. Kaman is a legit 7 feet with length. Smith is 6'8.5''

4. Kaman will not try to do things he is incapable of doing, unlike Smoove. He plays like a true center should.

5. Kaman would allow Horford to beast out on smaller PFs. I think Horford is now skilled enough to that. It would have been great to see Horford beat up Beasley in the post last night.

I agree that Smith is a better player then Smoove. However, I put more value in the center position then I do a tweener foward who can't shoot a lick. I would love to see the Hawks be a BIG team with Horford at PF. We have seen what we are as an unersized team and I'm not sure I like it in a 7 game playoff series vs. Howard, Perkins, Shaq, Big Z. Gasol, and Bynum.

Edited January 5, 2010 by coachx

[mrhonline]

FWIW, Kaman has not been all that successful vs. Howard in his career. He tends to get into foul trouble a lot and is always getting outrebounded...

[Kimsey]

From this: (espn player page)News: Smith had a double-double on Friday, scoring 24 points (8-of-14 FG, 8-of-11 FT) to go along with 10 rebounds, three assists, one steal and two blocks.

Spin: Smith is having an outstanding season and is the leads all Hawks in voting for the All-Star Game.

To this:

Smoove for Kaman is looking pretty good right now.

Beasley was taking Smith to school in the 1st half. It showed how limited Smith truely is offensively when he has NO fast break points to fall back on. Having Kaman play a traditional positional defensive role as a rebounding center would be nice to see on this team. Horford has what it takes to be a solid help defender and can get up and down the court with the best PF in the game. Seeing Horford having the chance to post up vs. PF every night, rather then C's would be quite intrigueing as well Kaman;s offensive post game is nothing to sneeze at either. No doubt that Kaman would make us a better half court team on both offense and defense.

Also....having Kaman and Horford gives a BIG front line that could make Crawford and JJ more effective on the floor together as a SG/SF duo.

Having 2 big brutes (Kaman / Horford) to set screens in half court sets would be a nice luxury too.

I'm beginning to buy into Kaman as a Hawk as Smith's limitations become more and more apparent.....though Kaman misses 10 games a year to injury. As long as he is at or near 100% come the playoffs he could help us alot vs. the big 3 in the East who all have huge front lines.

I don't know why the Clippers would want Smoove when they already have Blake Griffin but maybe a 3 way could be worked out.

Fickle much??? We could have had Kaman and Baron for Bibby's expiring... Don't see any likely hood ownership trading Smith for just Kaman.

[coachx]

FWIW, Kaman has not been all that successful vs. Howard in his career. He tends to get into foul trouble a lot and is always getting outrebounded...

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_kaman/game_by_game_stats.html

Here is what Kaman did vs. Howard in the 1 game they saw each other this year 12/08/2009

Kaman: 16 points / 9 boards / 37 minutes / 5 fouls

Being able to play 37 minutes vs. Howard, without fouling out, is pretty good vs. Dwight Howard.

Howard: 25 points / 11 rebounds (he averages over 13 rebounds)

Point taken in that Kaman did not stop Howard from scoring on this night.

Other games this year where Kaman faced a big center:

12/27/2009 vs. Boston

Kaman - 27 points / 12 rebounds

Perkins - 17 points / 10 rebounds

12/21/2009 vs. Spurs

Kaman 23 points / 15 rebounds

Duncan 13 points / 3 rebounds

12/13/2009 vs. Spurs

Kaman 19 points / 10 rebounds

Duncan 21 points / 3 rebounds

10/27/2009 vs. Lakers

Kaman 18 points / 16 rebounds

Bynum 26 points / 13 rebounds

While Kaman may not dominate the elite, allstar bigs in the league he definately holds his own and wins his share of the battles.

Since Nov 30 Kaman is averaging 21.3 ppg / 9.3 rpg.......slightly above this season average of 20.3 ppg / 9.1 rpg. One thing about the guy is he is consistent and "plays like a big is supposed to play."

Now I wonder how much Horford's prodcution would be effected by playing PF. A year ago I would have said none at all but his offensive skill set / post game, seems to have improved to the point where he could take advantage of weaker players in the post.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

(( shrugging shoulders ))

It is what it is folks.

People are trying to construct the perfect team here. Well, to do that, you have to give up somebody. You give up JJ, and you give up the guy who is the best shot creator on the team. You give up Smoove, and you give up our most dynamic defender. You give up Marvin, and you reduce one of the strengths of our team, which is the ability to swtich on defense ( a point that teams always talk about when we're playing well ).

I was an advocate for making a play for Marcus Camby after our playoff run was over. My thing was to trade Speedy and Evans for Camby . . or we could've done Speedy and Acie + maybe a 2nd rd pick.

The way I see it, we're constructed to be a defensive team, not an offensive one. Our best chance of winning is to play defense and rebound the basketball, because we just don't have a lot of talented offensive players on the squad. We have great athletic talent, when they can get out and run. But as far as great fundamental offensive talent? Nah.

So if we got Camby, I figured we could at least work him into a rotation with Josh and Al, and at least add another dominant rebounder to the squad ( which Camby is still is ). With Camby being an expiring contract though, the Clips probably wanted to keep him around, to at least entertain the thought of bringing him back. So I don't know if he was even on the block or not.

If we trade Marvin, I want to trade him for expiring contracts. To me, that's his greatest trade value right now, because it will allow us to re-sign JJ and deal with Horford next year. I'm not for trading Marvin for another journeyman SF. And when people talk about bringing in a Caron Butler, they're going to want more than Marvin, that's for sure.

Marvin + Teague might get us Caron . . . but people would have a fit if we traded Teague, I guess.

[coachx]

From this: (espn player page)News: Smith had a double-double on Friday, scoring 24 points (8-of-14 FG, 8-of-11 FT) to go along with 10 rebounds, three assists, one steal and two blocks.

Spin: Smith is having an outstanding season and is the leads all Hawks in voting for the All-Star Game.

So whats your point ? How about digging a little deeper then just that ?

Try this:

Kaman has 10 double doubles in his last 17 games.

Smoove has 1 double double in his last 18 games

Smoove only has 7 double doubles all season long !

To this:

Fickle much??? We could have had Kaman and Baron for Bibby's expiring... Don't see any likely hood ownership trading Smith for just Kaman.

Now your just making that up.

That trade is impossible under the CBA.

Edited January 5, 2010 by coachx

[TheNorthCydeRises]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_kaman/game_by_game_stats.html

Here is what Kaman did vs. Howard in the 1 game they saw each other this year 12/08/2009

Kaman: 16 points / 9 boards / 37 minutes / 5 fouls

Being able to play 37 minutes vs. Howard, without fouling out, is pretty good vs. Dwight Howard.

Howard: 25 points / 11 rebounds (he averages over 13 rebounds)

Point taken in that Kaman did not stop Howard from scoring on this night.

Other games this year where Kaman faced a big center:

12/27/2009 vs. Boston

Kaman - 27 points / 12 rebounds

Perkins - 17 points / 10 rebounds

12/21/2009 vs. Spurs

Kaman 23 points / 15 rebounds

Duncan 13 points / 3 rebounds

12/13/2009 vs. Spurs

Kaman 19 points / 10 rebounds

Duncan 21 points / 3 rebounds

10/27/2009 vs. Lakers

Kaman 18 points / 16 rebounds

Bynum 26 points / 13 rebounds

While Kaman may not dominate the elite, allstar bigs in the league he definately holds his own and wins his share of the battles.

Since Nov 30 Kaman is averaging 21.3 ppg / 9.3 rpg.......slightly above this season average of 20.3 ppg / 9.1 rpg. One thing about the guy is he is consistent and "plays like a big is supposed to play."

Now I wonder how much Horford's prodcution would be effected by playing PF. A year ago I would have said none at all but his offensive skill set / post game, seems to have improved to the point where he could take advantage of weaker players in the post.

Here's the thing though. JJ is still going to dominate the ball here, even with Kaman in the mix. So the question is, does Kaman get his points via creating his own shot, or does he get it from Baron Davis creating good looks for him? I know Kaman does create his own offense, but he does benefit by having a good passing PG like Baron feeding him the ball as well. Kaman's midrange shooting is excellent though, suggesting that Baron indeed may be creating looks for him in those areas.

[mrhonline]

If we trade Marvin, I want to trade him for expiring contracts.

I don't necessarily want expirings, but I am with you in not wanting to trade him for a world beater. I'd also strongly prefer to trade him to the WC, just in case...

I like the idea of Gomes because he's 1.) comparable, 2.) available, and 3.) affordable. His contract for the next three seasons is not fully guaranteed (according to sham):

Third and fourth years are $1 million guaranteed only, final year $750,000 guaranteed only. All three years become fully guaranteed if Gomes is not waived before June 30th 2010.

^^^So you've got some wiggle room there if it turns into a disaster. Thing is, Gomes has the heart people always want Marvin to find...

As far as Butler, what the Wizards want is to clear salary. They're gonna want an expiring contract and draft picks, which the Hawks don't really have to offer. (And they're more likely to offer Jamison to teams first).

[coachx]

Here's the thing though. JJ is still going to dominate the ball here, even with Kaman in the mix. So the question is, does Kaman get his points via creating his own shot, or does he get it from Baron Davis creating good looks for him? I know Kaman does create his own offense, but he does benefit by having a good passing PG like Baron feeding him the ball as well. Kaman's midrange shooting is excellent though, suggesting that Baron indeed may be creating looks for him in those areas.

I am more impressed with Kaman's rebounding vs. the top big men in the NBA then his scoring. I would also like to see Horford play PF alot more now that his post game has some polish to it. Its no secret Horford struggles vs. the top tier 7 footers in the league but the evidence is there that Kaman holds his own vs. them......and then some (see post above).

I would assume Kaman may average around 15 ppg with us (same as Smoove)..........not the 20 ppg he gets in LA. While he won't give us the highlight plays he will do the dirty work in the paint that all playoff teams need, that may not show in the box score. Just taking that physical load off Al Horford would be a big plus to Al's game.

No more whining to the refs. Maybe the refs begin to call our games more honestly without Smoove whining and without the cartoon like facial expressions as if his momma just got ran over by a reindeer. :helpsmilie:

Edited January 5, 2010 by coachx

[mrhonline]

Other guys I think could replace Marvin's role:

Tayshaun (too expensive)

J. Posey (too old, I'm afraid)

Omri Casspi (Kings aren't trading him)