Woody: Teague MUST wait behind vets

[TheTruth]

Truth . . which lineup is the best Hawk lineup on the year? And tell "the truth".

You are missing my points. The issue is that we have no bona fide natural replacement for Bibby. If he goes down, we aren't in good shape. I admitted that Teague doesn't deserve the 15 or so minutes every night some people are asking for...but he does deserve more than he is getting now...and on a more consistent basis. I like Crawford, but I dont want him at PG full time with Joe on the court as well (which is what would happen if Bibby went down). Crawford and Joe would log too many minutes, and Woodson would probably trust Teague even less.

At some point, talent has to be developed for the future. That talent may not be needed now...but it might for darn sure be needed later. And that, and that alone, is what I have a big problem with.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I will once again say this. When Salim was being used sparingly fans shouted from the rooftops that Woodson was just being stubborn and not using him right. Once Salim was finally freed from the Shackles of Woodson he impressed the rest of the coaches in the league so much he is now out of the league. Its clear that Woodson just was quick to identify that Salim couldn't help the team.

When Acie wasn't getting enough minutes people were outraged and thought Woodson was just being stubborn. Of course once Acie left the Warriors didn't even pick up his 4th year team option and can't get off the bench in Charlotte. It wasn't that Woodson was using Acie Wrong- its that Acie wasn't good enough to contribute.

If Salim and Acie had blossomed when they left I'd be here with you guys saying that he is "doing it again" to Teague. But to me its to Woodsons credit that he didn't wast more minutes on those guys even when the fans badly wanted the young guys to play more. I'll give Woodson the benefit of the doubt for now. There is plenty to look at in his performance to this point to support the idea that he just isn't ready. And if Teague isn't ready to be a contributor then I think the way to use him is to play him against backups where he has a good chance of succeeding and then play him in blowouts.

Spot, I'll hae to admit that I was one of those guys. Especially wIth Salim. But as time went along, there's no way people could justify Salim playing over Tyronn Lue, when Salim wasn't a better scorer or passer than Lue. And when Woody would play Childress spot minutes at PG, you couldn't argue that Salim should play, because that big lineup worked.

So now, people want Woody to play a PG that can't shoot, but on the flip side, is against him getting a extension right now ( so that he may have the job security to develop Teague ).

Woody is like . .."forget that. I need to win games, so that I'll either get an extension here this year, or a job somewhere else next year".

Personally, I don't blame him.

Teague is starting to look like Mateen Cleaves on the pro level. ( the former great PG from Miochigan St who played with Charlie Bell and Morris Peterson ). Both Bell and Peterson are still in the league . . . barely . . but still in. Mateen is probably selling insurance somewhere.

[spotatl]

TheTruth- wasting more "development" minutes on Acie and Salim wouldn't have done anything to solve the Hawks PG problem. They would have been wasted minutes on players that shouldn't have ever been drafted in the first place. I don't know what you think a Coach should do when the GM drafts a bust. TO me its to the coach's credit when they recgonize it early and don't waste the minutes on guys who can't get it done.

I like Teague far more than I ever liked Acie or Salim. But to me Woodson has earned the benefit of the doubt after Salim and Acie moved on and fell flat on their faces.

And to me this is the real problem with using a pick that late to "draft for need" if you have a need you shouldn't be counting on a pick that late to fill it. If you have a need get someone you KNOW can help the team.Draft the best player available and just do your best to get someone who can play in the league.

Edited January 19, 2010 by spotatl

[macdaddy]

To me the difference between Teague and Acie or Salim is that Teague earns his playing time almost everytime he steps on the court. I don't think stats for Teague mean anything because he's played a large part of his minutes in garbage time. When you actually watch him play he makes some impressive plays. Penetration, steals, blocks, defense. You can't say this about Acie or Salim.

The puzzling thing to me is that in i think the second Boston game Teague played great and earned praise from Woody for really frustrating Rondo on the defensive end. Then in the 3rd Boston game he didn't even see the floor while Rondo torched Bibby/Crawford and whoever else. To me its not about developing Teague its about using him for what he does well which is defend and penetrate on the offensive end like neither Bibby or Crawford do. Its just a wrinkle that other teams would have to adjust to. Isn't that what its all about?

[spotatl]

Whether someone "earns" their playing time is completely within the eye of the beholder on this board. There were people here sayign the EXACT same thing about Acie. "Every time he sets foot on the floor he can get to the rim and will and has to be a bettter defender than what we have otherwise!" but when someone penetrates but can't finish then its not particularly useful. Even in college Teague had a low assist rate and a high turnover rate- its not a small adjustment.

Clearly Woodson is trying to play Teague against players he thinks he can succeed against. HE played when the Wizards put in Boykins. He looked great when he was playing against Boykins. But that just doesn't directly translate to him playing against more starters. I have no problem with Teague playing against Backups- once he is consistently doing productive things against backups then expand his role.

Edited January 19, 2010 by spotatl

[mrhonline]

If you believe 82games, Crawford is far better at the 2...

[spotatl]

Interesting looking at 82games that Teague has barely been on the floor without Crawford. Any lineup that Teague has played at least 8 minutes with (total for the season) has Crawford in it.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You are missing my points. The issue is that we have no bona fide natural replacement for Bibby. If he goes down, we aren't in good shape. I admitted that Teague doesn't deserve the 15 or so minutes every night some people are asking for...but he does deserve more than he is getting now...and on a more consistent basis. I like Crawford, but I dont want him at PG full time with Joe on the court as well (which is what would happen if Bibby went down). Crawford and Joe would log too many minutes, and Woodson would probably trust Teague even less.

At some point, talent has to be developed for the future. That talent may not be needed now...but it might for darn sure be needed later. And that, and that alone, is what I have a big problem with.

OK . . . I see what you're saying. God knows I'm not a fan of Crawford at the point. Still, we're better off crossing that bridge when it comes, than reducing Bibby's minutes to prepare for that day. Bibby represents one of the only pure outside shooters. And even if Teague got increased minutes, the ball is still going to be in JJ's or Crawford's hands most of the time. Teague will have to be able to knock down shots if the ball is swung to him.

If Bibby went down, you'd almost have to start Teague, to reduce the scorng burden off of him when in the game with the 2nd team. Playing him in a Royal Ivey role with the starters, may at least protect him from being overwhelmed a little. That way, you can keep Crawford in his lead guard role off the bench as a scorer.

Then when JJ needed his rest, Woody would have to make the decision to either play Teague at the point and move Jamal to the 2 . . or keep Jamal at the point, and let Mario play the 2 while JJ is out.

You guys need to understand a critical point. For us to play Teague more time, the 2nd unit as a whole has to be better. When they quickly lose leads, or have decifits expand on them, Woody can't have a lot of patience with them, or the game will get too far out of reach. If Crawford isn't scoring while JJ is out of the game, we all know what happens. He has to put JJ right back in the game after only a few minutes rest. That's when you'll see JJ rack up those 42+ minute games.

We're not a developing team anymore. Woody doesn't have time to push and hold the circle button on the game pad, just so Teague can make his midrange jumpers.

Woody right now is trying to work him in the 2nd quarter, to get him playing time. Yesterday, he played a very lacluster 4 minutes, so Woody pulled him.

[AHF]

Interesting looking at 82games that Teague has barely been on the floor without Crawford. Any lineup that Teague has played at least 8 minutes with (total for the season) has Crawford in it.

That is because Teague only plays with the subs. Every lineup where Teague plays with 2 of top 3 scorers (JJ, Craw and Josh) is positive for the season. Throw him out there with Evans, Morris, etc. and his lineups tend to get outscored for some strange reason.

On the subject of this thread, I am not repeating my long posts on the subject but I will say:

* Bibby is not going to hold up. He will have an injury or be too slow defensively to be useful in key matchups as early as this season.

* Crawford should not be our sole backup plan at PG. He is more effective playing off the ball and functioning as a SG or wing player.

* Teague does not need huge minutes but needs a consistent role. Teague has played 5 minutes and change or less 53% of the games this season. That won't develop anyone.

* I don't think playing Teague 10-15 minutes every game will significantly hurt our team. That said, I will not flip out if we lose a few more games playing Teague and are ready to have him play a few minutes in the playoffs. I see this as preferable to forcing him into a more major role after restricting his minutes in the regular season or having Bibby getting abused on an island without relief when he faces someone like Rondo in the playoffs.

Speaking of Rondo, he shot 38% until his final month of play his rookie year. His PER was very similar to Teague's through the midpoint of the season as well (I am eyeballing this based on his final PER and the improvement Rondo made late in the year). By the next season, he was able to rape Bibby in our matchup because they developed him. Bibby was several years younger at that point in time and his physical skills are only falling off.

Edited January 19, 2010 by AHF

[exodus]

from http://www.nba.com/hotspots

Bibby: 22 - 38 on shots close to the rim ( 58% )

Teague: 28 - 67 on shots close to the rim ( 41% )

What part of that is hard to understand? So you would have Teague going to the rim, and missing a layup, but expecting that to get us back into the game?

You all keep talking about how the coach isn't this and the coach isn't that, but you want him to play a guy who can't make a close range shot 45% of the time, and can't make a midrange jumper? Meanwhile, you take your best 3 point shooter out of the game . . . or you don't play your combo guard who can score, at the point?

Does that really make sense?

As bad as Teague's shooting is, Bibby's defense is worse. The whole team has to cover for him. The Hawks have gotten crushed by high scoring pgs. And it isn't like Bibby is doing much on offense anyway. He is only averaging 9 ppg.

Teague hasn't come in and hurt the team, causing losses. The Hawks have shown to be perfectly capable of offensive breakdowns without him. Teague hasn't been in the game during their 4th quarter breakdowns. In three games against the Knicks Teague only played a total of 9 minutes. The Hawks lost two. He played only 4 minutes in the loss vs OKC, 3 minutes in the loss vs the Heat, 6 minutes in the loss against the Bulls.

Teague is the only guy on the team that has a chance to slow down someone like Rose, who scored 32 against us. That alone is enough reason for him to play more.

[spotatl]

I just don't get where people have this belief that Teague would be a quality defender against top PG's. There are plenty of athletic guys who are allergic to defense. And most rookies are poor defensive players.

[exodus]

I just don't get where people have this belief that Teague would be a quality defender against top PG's. There are plenty of athletic guys who are allergic to defense. And most rookies are poor defensive players.

It probably comes from watching him play. Devin Harris was visibly annoyed at Teagues defense. also Mr H posted an article which had Teague ranked as one of the best defensive reserves in the NBA. Of course if he was just average on D he would still be a major upgrade over Bibby and Crawford.

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/342069-jeff-teague-drtg/page__hl__Teague__fromsearch__1

Edited January 20, 2010 by exodus

[jy23]

from http://www.nba.com/hotspots

Bibby: 22 - 38 on shots close to the rim ( 58% )

Teague: 28 - 67 on shots close to the rim ( 41% )

What part of that is hard to understand? So you would have Teague going to the rim, and missing a layup, but expecting that to get us back into the game?

You all keep talking about how the coach isn't this and the coach isn't that, but you want him to play a guy who can't make a close range shot 45% of the time, and can't make a midrange jumper? Meanwhile, you take your best 3 point shooter out of the game . . . or you don't play your combo guard who can score, at the point?

Does that really make sense?

The fact that he's doubled Bibby's shots at the rim is reason enuf for me......maybe he's missing bc of nerves, he knows that woody isn't giving him alot of rope out there so he fears messing up so much.....that could be a possibility

[Crank]

That is because Teague only plays with the subs. Every lineup where Teague plays with 2 of top 3 scorers (JJ, Craw and Josh) is positive for the season. Throw him out there with Evans, Morris, etc. and his lineups tend to get outscored for some strange reason.

On the subject of this thread, I am not repeating my long posts on the subject but I will say:

* Bibby is not going to hold up. He will have an injury or be too slow defensively to be useful in key matchups as early as this season.

* Crawford should not be our sole backup plan at PG. He is more effective playing off the ball and functioning as a SG or wing player.

* Teague does not need huge minutes but needs a consistent role. Teague has played 5 minutes and change or less 53% of the games this season. That won't develop anyone.

* I don't think playing Teague 10-15 minutes every game will significantly hurt our team. That said, I will not flip out if we lose a few more games playing Teague and are ready to have him play a few minutes in the playoffs. I see this as preferable to forcing him into a more major role after restricting his minutes in the regular season or having Bibby getting abused on an island without relief when he faces someone like Rondo in the playoffs.

Speaking of Rondo, he shot 38% until his final month of play his rookie year. His PER was very similar to Teague's through the midpoint of the season as well (I am eyeballing this based on his final PER and the improvement Rondo made late in the year). By the next season, he was able to rape Bibby in our matchup because they developed him. Bibby was several years younger at that point in time and his physical skills are only falling off.

I agree that Bibby is not going to hold up at the pace whe started the season but his minutes are down to very good levels but to make it even more effective we need Marvin to step up moreso than Teague .

Crawford has been most effective at pg . The numbers are skewed because we play a 3 guard lineup a ton and so he gets listed at SG although he is playing point guard especially in the 4th .

I disagree you dont have to play to learn your first year and with him being so young its best for him to sit and learn and to get minutes when he can . There is no rush and right now the growing pains with teaching Teague how to play our style of play would hurt the team more than help it right now .

This year its more important to get the top 6 playing well and get a good grasp of how far they can go as there are important decisions that have to be made . There is no reason to insert teague into that right now . Allow him to get a feel for the nba game the travel etc and then this offseason when we decide on what we will do with Joe and Woody we can go from there.

[Kimsey]

Bibby is just a stop gap pg no matter how much Woodson loves him. It behooves the org. to develop Teague as much he possible and 10 to 15 mpg is not "throwing someone to the wolves". He just uses this as an excuse because there is no offensive structure whatsoever and a rookie pg is typically going to look lost at times. With that said Mark Price(12 year, 4 year all-star) should stick to JT as a natural mentor and Woodson should just instruct on defensive tactics.

Bibby guarding the opponents worst offensive player is not going to fly in the playoffs. We are barely getting by during the reg. season. Teague on the Rondos/Roses defensively is the best option this team has had in a long time since maybe Mookie.

[Gray Mule]

:write a letter:

We have a great argument about playing time, don't we? Reminds me of the old saw:

Mommy and Daddy are both non swimers and scared of water and too scared to try to learn.

Therefore, they tell their children - - "You're to stay away from the pool until you learn to swim!"

Personally, I would prefer the Royal Ivie plan for playing time. It would be short, consistant

and with the other starters. If things go well, he gets back in again, otherwise, he doesn't.

Three minutes plus to begin the first and third quarters. Microscopic time, but real time.

Who knows. Perhaps he plays so well he gets four or five minutes. Six to ten minutes

right there - - every game.

Woody says he likes Agent 0. Most of us like him. He doesn't need to be playing major minutes.

I don't want that. Probably not a good idea to depend on him to close out a close game.

Hard to believe with this plan, we could possibly blame JT for any loss we might suffer.

:whistling:

[Cwell]

Bibby is just a stop gap pg no matter how much Woodson loves him. It behooves the org. to develop Teague as much he possible and 10 to 15 mpg is not "throwing someone to the wolves". He just uses this as an excuse because there is no offensive structure whatsoever and a rookie pg is typically going to look lost at times. With that said Mark Price(12 year, 4 year all-star) should stick to JT as a natural mentor and Woodson should just instruct on defensive tactics.

Bibby guarding the opponents worst offensive player is not going to fly in the playoffs. We are barely getting by during the reg. season. Teague on the Rondos/Roses defensively is the best option this team has had in a long time since maybe Mookie.

Acie always did a good job defending those opposing PG's and Woody still didn't play him, even when he outplayed Bibby one both sides of the ball. Woody aint playing Teague no matter what he does.

[NineOhTheRino]

Acie always did a good job defending those opposing PG's and Woody still didn't play him, even when he outplayed Bibby one both sides of the ball. Woody aint playing Teague no matter what he does.

What's Woody's justification for playing Mario West? If going by the same blueprint that Woody has used with Acie and Teague Rio should never get PT since everything he does on D is offset by his horrible offense.

Edited January 20, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[spotatl]

Cwell- Even when Acie moved on from Woodson the Warriors didn't even pick up his 4th year team option and now he is a bench warmer. Woodson didn't play Acie because Acie is one of the worst PG's in the league.

[AHF]

I can't blame Woodson for not giving more time to Acie or Salim. If Teague is also a washout, then he is right on this too. Woodson is giving every indication in interviews that Teague is not a washout, though, and that he just wants to run with his vets this season. Given that he is in the last year of his contract, I can understand this sentiment but I can't agree with it because I see serious consequences for our team if we have to rely on Crawford as our PG due to Bibby injury or in effectiveness. For that reason (and the fact that Teague has done a decent overall job in his limited minutes), I strongly believe Teague needs to be given a regular role on the team and regular minutes -- not starting over Bibby minutes or anything but some regular minutes so he can step in and give you a change in pace or fill-in work when you need it. I don't think we should wait until next year to develop this.