Marvin Williams

[Guest Walter]

I am the first to be skeptical of Marvin William's value to the team. I would find it no surprise that MW, more than any other player has played less well as a result of the off-season additions of Joe Smith, Jeff Teague, and Jamal Crawford. I would equally find it no surprise that many (OK, the number does surprise me to this day) would continue to apologize for Marvin Williams. Regardless, let's take a look at the numbers to see if it is really MW that has been most impacted by the changes. I will look at per48 or per minute statistics to remove the decreased MPG issue for MW and others.

TENDEX per48

Player...'09...'10

JJ..........25.1...26.0 = 0.9

JS.........24.1...30.4 = 6.3

AH........26.2...28.8 = 2.6

MB........23.4...20.6 = -2.8

ME........15.4...17.1 = 1.7

MW.......21.8...19.1 = -2.7

Roland Rating

Player...'09...'10

JJ...........6.1...7.7 = 1.6

JS..........2.6...12.1 = 9.5

AH.........0.0...11.2 = 11.2

MB.........0.0...4.3 = 4.3

ME........-5.5..-9.8 = -3.9

MW........0.5...-1.6 = -2.1

Combined differences between '09 to '10 ( I know, why combine these numbers, but the differences are relative and simply provide a combined context)

JJ 2.5

JS 15.8

AH 13.8

MB 1.5

ME -2.2

MW -4.8

I think it is pretty clear that MW has played very poorly. These statistics should indicate just how poorly relatively to most returning players. It could be argued that all these players are getting less opportunities, etc. but it is only MW who is worse this year vs last year in these two overall statistical categories.

The MW apologists will yet again have to move up the MW goal posts or redefine success. I'm not sure MW has ever lived up to any expectation of him. Remember when just a few years ago, the majority of MW apologists insisted that MW would become a 20 PPG player. THAT WAS THE FALL BACK POSITION! He was supposed to be a superstar. Anyhow, now he's a 10 PPG player. He's now borderline the quality role player starter expectation that is the new MW apologist position ("We never said he was worth the #2 pick"...actually you did..."We never said he was was going to be a perennial all-star"...you did..."a 20 PPG player"...you did..."a high-quality starter"...you did...).

My points are this: 1) MW will live down to whatever expectation there is of him. I have serious doubts about how to light a fire under his *ss as I think tough love like a benching he would at worse accept. He seems to have so little fire in his belly he might just give up and accept a demotion the rest of his career. 2) MW doesn't deserve a single excuse maker and those that perpetuate them are doing they, him, and the team a disservice. 3) Despite MW's continually disappointing career, I for some reason do not see how we can get his "value" in trade and he's not awful as a role player. Therefore we "need" him. His contract isn't awful, just new. Hopefully he can at least, at last measure up to his apologist's newly acquired expectations of him, a quality role player starter.

P.S. I am enjoying the ride this year. Crawford is as close to another star player as I could have hoped for and JS and AH are playing up.

W

[Buzzard]

I am the first to be skeptical of Marvin William's value to the team. I would find it no surprise that MW, more than any other player has played less well as a result of the off-season additions of Joe Smith, Jeff Teague, and Jamal Crawford. I would equally find it no surprise that many (OK, the number does surprise me to this day) would continue to apologize for Marvin Williams. Regardless, let's take a look at the numbers to see if it is really MW that has been most impacted by the changes. I will look at per48 or per minute statistics to remove the decreased MPG issue for MW and others.

TENDEX per48

Player...'09...'10

JJ..........25.1...26.0 = 0.9

JS.........24.1...30.4 = 6.3

AH........26.2...28.8 = 2.6

MB........23.4...20.6 = -2.8

ME........15.4...17.1 = 1.7

MW.......21.8...19.1 = -2.7

Roland Rating

Player...'09...'10

JJ...........6.1...7.7 = 1.6

JS..........2.6...12.1 = 9.5

AH.........0.0...11.2 = 11.2

MB.........0.0...4.3 = 4.3

ME........-5.5..-9.8 = -3.9

MW........0.5...-1.6 = -2.1

Combined differences between '09 to '10 ( I know, why combine these numbers, but the differences are relative and simply provide a combined context)

JJ 2.5

JS 15.8

AH 13.8

MB 1.5

ME -2.2

MW -4.8

I think it is pretty clear that MW has played very poorly. These statistics should indicate just how poorly relatively to most returning players. It could be argued that all these players are getting less opportunities, etc. but it is only MW who is worse this year vs last year in these two overall statistical categories.

The MW apologists will yet again have to move up the MW goal posts or redefine success. I'm not sure MW has ever lived up to any expectation of him. Remember when just a few years ago, the majority of MW apologists insisted that MW would become a 20 PPG player. THAT WAS THE FALL BACK POSITION! He was supposed to be a superstar. Anyhow, now he's a 10 PPG player. He's now borderline the quality role player starter expectation that is the new MW apologist position ("We never said he was worth the #2 pick"...actually you did..."We never said he was was going to be a perennial all-star"...you did..."a 20 PPG player"...you did..."a high-quality starter"...you did...).

My points are this: 1) MW will live down to whatever expectation there is of him. I have serious doubts about how to light a fire under his *ss as I think tough love like a benching he would at worse accept. He seems to have so little fire in his belly he might just give up and accept a demotion the rest of his career. 2) MW doesn't deserve a single excuse maker and those that perpetuate them are doing they, him, and the team a disservice. 3) Despite MW's continually disappointing career, I for some reason do not see how we can get his "value" in trade and he's not awful as a role player. Therefore we "need" him. His contract isn't awful, just new. Hopefully he can at least, at last measure up to his apologist's newly acquired expectations of him, a quality role player starter.

P.S. I am enjoying the ride this year. Crawford is as close to another star player as I could have hoped for and JS and AH are playing up.

W

The almighty has spoken. All ye of little faith who have lied please stand up now and take your just and due punishment. Where are all these posters that said "they did think Marvin had all star potential and are now saying they never said that?" Could it be these posters are a figment of your egos imagination?

I am sorry Walter but I do not think my opinion has enough power to cause harm to Marvin or my team in such a dramatic way as to be seen by them as a disservice. You probably think yours could cause the fall of the Roman Empire or Wall Street.

I will continue to root for all of our players to improve. If you do not like that, you are not a fan IMO but a wanna be fan who roots against his teams players when it suits his ego. And until all of our players hit all star status it will be across the board rooting for them or hoping one day they are replaced by such talent. Winning championships is not about rooting for a particular player or rooting against a player. Its about forming a team of at least two or three all stars that have great team chemistry. I want that for every player on our team.

You want us to root for Horf, Smoove, Teague, and Craw to improve and possibly become all stars but do not want us to do the same Marvin. Sorry Walter but my fandom is not built that way.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Buzzard

[buckeye242424]

I am the first to be skeptical of Marvin William's value to the team. I would find it no surprise that MW, more than any other player has played less well as a result of the off-season additions of Joe Smith, Jeff Teague, and Jamal Crawford. I would equally find it no surprise that many (OK, the number does surprise me to this day) would continue to apologize for Marvin Williams. Regardless, let's take a look at the numbers to see if it is really MW that has been most impacted by the changes. I will look at per48 or per minute statistics to remove the decreased MPG issue for MW and others.

TENDEX per48

Player...'09...'10

JJ..........25.1...26.0 = 0.9

JS.........24.1...30.4 = 6.3

AH........26.2...28.8 = 2.6

MB........23.4...20.6 = -2.8

ME........15.4...17.1 = 1.7

MW.......21.8...19.1 = -2.7

Roland Rating

Player...'09...'10

JJ...........6.1...7.7 = 1.6

JS..........2.6...12.1 = 9.5

AH.........0.0...11.2 = 11.2

MB.........0.0...4.3 = 4.3

ME........-5.5..-9.8 = -3.9

MW........0.5...-1.6 = -2.1

Combined differences between '09 to '10 ( I know, why combine these numbers, but the differences are relative and simply provide a combined context)

JJ 2.5

JS 15.8

AH 13.8

MB 1.5

ME -2.2

MW -4.8

I think it is pretty clear that MW has played very poorly. These statistics should indicate just how poorly relatively to most returning players. It could be argued that all these players are getting less opportunities, etc. but it is only MW who is worse this year vs last year in these two overall statistical categories.

The MW apologists will yet again have to move up the MW goal posts or redefine success. I'm not sure MW has ever lived up to any expectation of him. Remember when just a few years ago, the majority of MW apologists insisted that MW would become a 20 PPG player. THAT WAS THE FALL BACK POSITION! He was supposed to be a superstar. Anyhow, now he's a 10 PPG player. He's now borderline the quality role player starter expectation that is the new MW apologist position ("We never said he was worth the #2 pick"...actually you did..."We never said he was was going to be a perennial all-star"...you did..."a 20 PPG player"...you did..."a high-quality starter"...you did...).

My points are this: 1) MW will live down to whatever expectation there is of him. I have serious doubts about how to light a fire under his *ss as I think tough love like a benching he would at worse accept. He seems to have so little fire in his belly he might just give up and accept a demotion the rest of his career. 2) MW doesn't deserve a single excuse maker and those that perpetuate them are doing they, him, and the team a disservice. 3) Despite MW's continually disappointing career, I for some reason do not see how we can get his "value" in trade and he's not awful as a role player. Therefore we "need" him. His contract isn't awful, just new. Hopefully he can at least, at last measure up to his apologist's newly acquired expectations of him, a quality role player starter.

P.S. I am enjoying the ride this year. Crawford is as close to another star player as I could have hoped for and JS and AH are playing up.

W

It doesn't matter what Marvin does, he will never live up to the expectations placed upon him around here. Save he puts up 20 and 10, which is impossible playing with the guys he's playing with. There are possibly 2, 3 all-stars on the Hawks (possibly 4 with Craws in the pipe dream we live in). Marvin is not in a position to warrant or justify such a lofty draft pick, not with the talent around him. He's in a no-win situation. Marvin just needs to continue being a solid starter on a good team and continue what he's doing. He doesn't complain, he plays hard, he's a good teammate. Marvin is no different from JJ, Smoove, or Mo Evans, any player who makes bad decisions or misses easy shots. It's just magnified for him when he makes a bad play because a "number 2" draft pick should be all-NBA every year.

[Guest Walter]

The almighty has spoken. All ye of little faith who have lied please stand up now and take your just and due punishment. Where are all these posters that said "they did think Marvin had all star potential and are now saying they never said that?" Could it be these posters are a figment of your egos imagination?

I am sorry Walter but I do not think my opinion has enough power to cause harm to Marvin or my team in such a dramatic way as to be seen by them as a disservice. You probably think yours could cause the fall of the Roman Empire or Wall Street.

I will continue to root for all of our players to improve. If you do not like that, you are not a fan IMO but a wanna be fan who roots against his teams players when it suits his ego. And until all of our players hit all star status it will be across the board rooting for them or hoping one day they are replaced by such talent. Winning championships is not about rooting for a particular player or rooting against a player. Its about forming a team of at least two or three all stars that have great team chemistry. I want that for every player on our team.

You want us to root for Horf, Smoove, Teague, and Craw to improve and possibly become all stars but do not want us to do the same Marvin. Sorry Walter but my fandom is not built that way.

Yawn.

1) Yes, I do think it does MW harm to have excuses made for him, top on down, even by the self-appointed lowly you.

2) I "root" for the Atlanta Hawks! Unlike you I "root for" individual players second. Sometimes "rooting for" individual players is in conflict with rooting for the team. The example is continually and repeatedly giving a player a pass on performance relative to investment. THE TEAM SUFFERS WHEN THIS HAPPENS! It's not like MW suffers from a lack of "rooting for"?!? Even his most ardent detractors would eat crow 3 square meals a day if he became worth a d@mn! The fact is however, that continuing to make excuses for MW and continuing to lower expectations to whatever it is that MW is doing (not can do), is "rooting for" a player in a way that is DETRIMENTAL TO THE TEAM! We aren't jsut "rooting for" MW. We are paying him handsomely over a long contract, we are benching other players, we are likely not drafting for the Sf position...ALL BECAUSE OF ALL THIS "ROOTING FOR MARVIN" BULL! I don't care if it is with or without MW or JS or AH or P-Diddy, I want this team to win a championship! I realize that rooting for the team sometimes means that "rooting for" players, however much we all would like every player to succeed, isn't in the best interest of the TEAM and in MW's case is a masochistic exercise in chronic disappointment.

3) Interestly, amongst all your drivel, is the fact that you did not address one, single fact. MW is our most disappointing player in terms of productivity relative to ability, arguably for the 5th year straight. Face it. Don't spray it.

W

[mrhonline]

Phew. It had been nearly three hours since the last Marvin thread.

I was getting worried.

[FrankWhite]

Finally a thread about Marvin WIlliams!

[Diesel]

It doesn't matter what Marvin does, he will never live up to the expectations placed upon him around here. Save he puts up 20 and 10, which is impossible playing with the guys he's playing with. There are possibly 2, 3 all-stars on the Hawks (possibly 4 with Craws in the pipe dream we live in). Marvin is not in a position to warrant or justify such a lofty draft pick, not with the talent around him. He's in a no-win situation. Marvin just needs to continue being a solid starter on a good team and continue what he's doing. He doesn't complain, he plays hard, he's a good teammate. Marvin is no different from JJ, Smoove, or Mo Evans, any player who makes bad decisions or misses easy shots. It's just magnified for him when he makes a bad play because a "number 2" draft pick should be all-NBA every year.

It's funny that a guy like Crawford can come in, play less minutes than Marvin but be much more productive on the floor with Joe and Bibby than Marvin can. It's not his situation, it's his mentality.

[benhillboy]

I never thought I would feel sorry for a guy who makes more in one night than I do in a year, but I feel for Marvin. Look at his manner and body language out there. I am positive he has problems with hearing and seeing how much people dislike his play: he routinely shows up on "Biggest Bust" lists, and I surely hope his assistant (hard trying to picture Marvin with employees) doesn't report anything they see on blogs like these. I vow to never trash Marvin again on this baord. I kill Joe routinely because he's so inconsistent when he has the pedigree and skills to be better more often than what he shows. I can no longer hold Marvin's feet to the fire. If there's a lunar eclipse and he plays well, it's a premium. If he's a deer in headlights, it's what I expected. I've subscribed to the belief that he neither impacts wins or losses. He's just "here." Let him be. Rick Sund knows more basketball than us all put together. Marvin is still here,we're still on top of the division, so I trust his judgement. He's our Marvin, let him live in the attic, eat cereal, and play Madden.

[Frenzy]

I never thought I would feel sorry for a guy who makes more in one night than I do in a year, but I feel for Marvin. Look at his manner and body language out there. I am positive he has problems with hearing and seeing how much people dislike his play: he routinely shows up on "Biggest Bust" lists, and I surely hope his assistant (hard trying to picture Marvin with employees) doesn't report anything they see on blogs like these. I vow to never trash Marvin again on this baord. I kill Joe routinely because he's so inconsistent when he has the pedigree and skills to be better more often than what he shows. I can no longer hold Marvin's feet to the fire. If there's a lunar eclipse and he plays well, it's a premium. If he's a deer in headlights, it's what I expected. I've subscribed to the belief that he neither impacts wins or losses. He's just "here." Let him be. Rick Sund knows more basketball than us all put together. Marvin is still here,we're still on top of the division, so I trust his judgement. He's our Marvin, let him live in the attic, eat cereal, and play Madden.

lmao

[exodus]

Funny how Walter has nothing to say about the hawks success for the past two years, but instead chooses to criticize Marvin for the millionth time. Yes Marvin has sucked this year which is definitely puzzling considering he did pretty well last year. I don't see anyone arguing that Marvin has played well but i guess that won't stop you from pretending that they are. Other than passable three point shooting and defense he hasn't brought much to the table. Everyone sees this and acknowleges it, so what is the point of this thread? What is the point of bringing up the draft yet again? Everyone knows Marvin was a lousy pick. Thank you Captain Obvious.

What do you think of Smith not shooting 3s any more?

Walter: "Marvin sucks"

What do you think of Horford's improvement?

Walter: "Marvin sucks"

Which Hawks do you think will make the All-Star team?

Walter: "Marvin sucks"

[Buzzard]

Yawn.

1) Yes, I do think it does MW harm to have excuses made for him, top on down, even by the self-appointed lowly you.

2) I "root" for the Atlanta Hawks! Unlike you I "root for" individual players second. Sometimes "rooting for" individual players is in conflict with rooting for the team. The example is continually and repeatedly giving a player a pass on performance relative to investment. THE TEAM SUFFERS WHEN THIS HAPPENS! It's not like MW suffers from a lack of "rooting for"?!? Even his most ardent detractors would eat crow 3 square meals a day if he became worth a d@mn! The fact is however, that continuing to make excuses for MW and continuing to lower expectations to whatever it is that MW is doing (not can do), is "rooting for" a player in a way that is DETRIMENTAL TO THE TEAM! We aren't jsut "rooting for" MW. We are paying him handsomely over a long contract, we are benching other players, we are likely not drafting for the Sf position...ALL BECAUSE OF ALL THIS "ROOTING FOR MARVIN" BULL! I don't care if it is with or without MW or JS or AH or P-Diddy, I want this team to win a championship! I realize that rooting for the team sometimes means that "rooting for" players, however much we all would like every player to succeed, isn't in the best interest of the TEAM and in MW's case is a masochistic exercise in chronic disappointment.

3) Interestly, amongst all your drivel, is the fact that you did not address one, single fact. MW is our most disappointing player in terms of productivity relative to ability, arguably for the 5th year straight. Face it. Don't spray it.

W

Yawn, Shits, and Giggles is more appropriate IMO

1-Yes, I do think it does MW harm to have excuses made for him, top on down, even by the self-appointed lowly you.

I am sure Marvin and the Hawks owners are at home right now totally perplexed and worried beyond belief that some fans are supportive of Marvin and our team and some prefer to bash Marvin. What are they to do? I think they will get up and go to work myself.

2-Sometimes "rooting for" individual players is in conflict with rooting for the team. The example is continually and repeatedly giving a player a pass on performance relative to investment. THE TEAM SUFFERS WHEN THIS HAPPENS!

Yes I know our poor millionaires, owners, GM, and team in general is really suffereing because Marvin, one of their teammates, gets some positive support and negative support on this board. Like I said, you think a lot of your own opinion as it concerns the effect it has on management and our players.

3-MW is our most disappointing player in terms of productivity relative to ability, arguably for the 5th year straight

Address that Marvin has not met expectations of being the 2nd pick overall. How many times does this need to be addressed by us here on the Squawk to satisfy your highness. Or could it be this is your first revelation concering this well known fact?

Yawn Yawn Yawn...Marvin has not come close to fullfilling the expectations of being the 2nd pick overall. Now that this has been posted for the 10,000th time, does everyone understand it? Or do we need to explain it for another 10,000 more times?

Edited January 20, 2010 by Buzzard

[exodus]

.

1) Yes, I do think it does MW harm to have excuses made for him, top on down, even by the self-appointed lowly you.

2) I "root" for the Atlanta Hawks! Unlike you I "root for" individual players second. Sometimes "rooting for" individual players is in conflict with rooting for the team. The example is continually and repeatedly giving a player a pass on performance relative to investment. THE TEAM SUFFERS WHEN THIS HAPPENS! It's not like MW suffers from a lack of "rooting for"?!? Even his most ardent detractors would eat crow 3 square meals a day if he became worth a d@mn! The fact is however, that continuing to make excuses for MW and continuing to lower expectations to whatever it is that MW is doing (not can do), is "rooting for" a player in a way that is DETRIMENTAL TO THE TEAM! We aren't jsut "rooting for" MW. We are paying him handsomely over a long contract, we are benching other players, we are likely not drafting for the Sf position...ALL BECAUSE OF ALL THIS "ROOTING FOR MARVIN" BULL! I don't care if it is with or without MW or JS or AH or P-Diddy, I want this team to win a championship! I realize that rooting for the team sometimes means that "rooting for" players, however much we all would like every player to succeed, isn't in the best interest of the TEAM and in MW's case is a masochistic exercise in chronic disappointment.

3) Interestly, amongst all your drivel, is the fact that you did not address one, single fact. MW is our most disappointing player in terms of productivity relative to ability, arguably for the 5th year straight. Face it. Don't spray it.

W

Where are all these excuses people are making for Marvin?

Edited January 20, 2010 by exodus

[gsuteke]

Marvin does stink - but he's not being used appropriately either.

BTW was that an excuse? LOL

Edited January 20, 2010 by gsuteke

[Gray Mule]

Eureka!

Hawk fans finally have something to post about. Marvin Williams. Now, why didn't I think of that!! Wow!

:snowballfight:

Everything about MW can be explained when we have the answer to the simple question:

"Where in the draft was he taken?"

This explains everything. Not his talent or lack therof. Not how good or bad he plays. None of that matters.

He is a starter on a first place team in January. None of that matters. What really matters is: "Where was he drafted?"

:line dance:

[ATLSmith]

Marvin Williams is better than Lebron James. 'Nuff said.

[Atlantaholic]

Marvin Williams is the best player to ever come from the University of North Carolina, and probably the best player in the history of the NBA. His stats may not be much, but it is obvious to any respectable basketball fan that his talent is superior to just about anyone's. It is only a matter of time before he breaks out and carries our franchise to 20 straight championships.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I miss Midrange Marvin.

Ever since he's tried to develop the 3 point shot, his midrange shot has gone downhill. Marvin, ditch the 3 ball and go back to being "money" from midrange.

[exodus]

I miss Midrange Marvin.

Ever since he's tried to develop the 3 point shot, his midrange shot has gone downhill. Marvin, ditch the 3 ball and go back to being "money" from midrange.

I disagree. Last year Marvin's EFG% on jumpers was 45% which was easily better than his previous years and that is because of the 3s. His current EFG% on jumpers is 42.2% which is still better than the years when he wasn't shooting 3s.

Also you have to take into account the spacing benefits of shooting 3s.

I think becoming a good 3 pt shooter is the key to Marvin's career. He can't take contact well enough to finish consistently taking it to the rim and he can't create his own shot well of the dribble. The 3 is very important to him.

Edited January 20, 2010 by exodus

[Admin]

I'd prefer for him to be an effective 3pt shooter but I also agree with Northcyde in that I miss when he was someone I expected to hit the mid-range shot whereas now I cringe (not Smoove long shot cringe, but cringe nonetheless) when he takes a mid-range shot because I don't expect him to make it. Why can't we have a Marvin that consistently hits them from mid and long range?

[AHF]

I disagree. Last year Marvin's EFG% on jumpers was 45% which was easily better than his previous years and that is because of the 3s. His current EFG% on jumpers is 42.2% which is still better than the years when he wasn't shooting 3s.

Also you have to take into account the spacing benefits of shooting 3s.

I think becoming a good 3 pt shooter is the key to Marvin's career. He can't take contact well enough to finish consistently taking it to the rim and he can't create his own shot well of the dribble. The 3 is very important to him.

I will cosign this. I do think, however, that the midrange game and 3pt shooting are not mutually exclusive.