Hawks arn't built to win yet ?

[tbhawksfan]

Where do you think the Hawks are now? Championship caliber? If not, what's it going to take to get there? We do want them to get there, don't we?

I guess the way to do this is to break it into two camps; those that think the Hawks are championship material and those that don't. Might be an opportunity to put a short and long-term prediction on the record.

If you think the Hawks arn't championship bound in the next 1-3 years with this core, why not propose your vision of changes you think could be made to get us there. If you think this core will get the trophy, let us know. The window of opportunity can be seen as the next three seasons.

I think the Hawks are legit, but not championship. There are a few teams that have every likelyhood of bouncing the Hawks in a series. Hollinger has the Hawks at 4.9% chance at the trophy. Next year, if we keep the core (Horf, JJ, Smoove, MW, Crawf, Bibby, Zaza, Teague) Bibby will be a year older and two speeds slower, JJ will be signed to a huge 5-6 year deal and we will be against the top cap at least with Horf still needing a contract.

I think the best chance at turning this team into a top three level contender, and really run at a title, is to move JJ. I'll be interested to see if anyone proposes trades of players other than JJ that could get us there. I say move Joe for at least one future all-star type PG (Devin Harris) or a nice young C. I'm not talking about diluting the talent. I'm talking about redistributing it. JJ traded in the right way could bring a talented player of the same age as the rest of our core (3-4 years younger than JJ) and with a couple of other moves give the Hawks a real chance at a ring in the next 3-4 years.

I've been working some trade ideas and I'll come back soon with my vision of the type of moves that could get us there. I'll try to run em by a trade board to make sure their fairly realistic.

Hope to have some people jump into this. Seems like a topic with the deadline approaching.

[gsuteke]

Nobody in their right mind is going to trade an elite big for a ver good swing man. Our only hope is to strike gold like the lakers did with pao. Plus I don't think jj has an extraordinary amount of trade value given his contract situation. I appreciate where you're coming from though. We just can't beat orlando.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Where do you think the Hawks are now? Championship caliber? If not, what's it going to take to get there? We do want them to get there, don't we?

We weren't a championship caliber team before the season started, but we're closer to being that right now. We're a solid playoff contender. Funny how that isn't all of a sudden good enough for people anymore.

I guess the way to do this is to break it into two camps; those that think the Hawks are championship material and those that don't. Might be an opportunity to put a short and long-term prediction on the record.

If you think the Hawks arn't championship bound in the next 1-3 years with this core, why not propose your vision of changes you think could be made to get us there. If you think this core will get the trophy, let us know. The window of opportunity can be seen as the next three seasons.

I think the Hawks are legit, but not championship. There are a few teams that have every likelyhood of bouncing the Hawks in a series. Hollinger has the Hawks at 4.9% chance at the trophy. Next year, if we keep the core (Horf, JJ, Smoove, MW, Crawf, Bibby, Zaza, Teague) Bibby will be a year older and two speeds slower, JJ will be signed to a huge 5-6 year deal and we will be against the top cap at least with Horf still needing a contract.

The problem is, this group hasn't gotten a chance to play in the playoffs yet ( with Crawford ), to see just how good they can be. If we make it to the Eastern Conference Finals, this season is NOT a failure. It'll prove that this current core just may be "championship material" if they can get that far in the playoffs. But people want to tweak the lineup, before they play one playoff game, which is kind of crazy.

When you look at our core players, these are the state of those players games:

JJ - about the same, if not a little bit better of a scorer now, than he has been the past 3 years

Crawford - a lot better than he has at any point in his career

Smoove - has improved his post up game against average defenders, and is back to stuffing the stat sheet on a nightly basis

Horford - improved midrange jumpshooting over the past two seasons and is a little better defensively.

Marvin - becoming more erratic with his jumpshooting, about the same defensively, still too inactive of a player.

Bibby - less serviceable than a year ago, and is becoming somewhat unreliable on both ends of the floor

Zaza - nowhere near as consistent of a player off the bench as he was a year ago

Mo - 3 point shot is more erratic and he's less reliable defensively,

I think the best chance at turning this team into a top three level contender, and really run at a title, is to move JJ. I'll be interested to see if anyone proposes trades of players other than JJ that could get us there. I say move Joe for at least one future all-star type PG (Devin Harris) or a nice young C. I'm not talking about diluting the talent. I'm talking about redistributing it. JJ traded in the right way could bring a talented player of the same age as the rest of our core (3-4 years younger than JJ) and with a couple of other moves give the Hawks a real chance at a ring in the next 3-4 years.

I've been working some trade ideas and I'll come back soon with my vision of the type of moves that could get us there. I'll try to run em by a trade board to make sure their fairly realistic.

Hope to have some people jump into this. Seems like a topic with the deadline approaching.

So your solution, is to keep all of our inconsistent players around, but get rid of our BEST PLAYER? The one guy who can literally put this team on his back and carry us to victory? This is the flawed thinking in full display around here about this team. JJ isn't keeping us from winning a title. It's the guys around him that's doing it. For us to win a title, JJ will have to play at an All-NBA level. But the people around him will have to play at a much, much higher level than what they're playing at right now.

There are no young centers to trade JJ for. Clippers aren't giving up Kaman. That would be silly of them to do. Memphis sure in the heck isn't giving up Marc Gasol. He helps anchor that team offensively. Lakers aren't trading Bynum, unless it's for another all-star Forward/Center. The "young center" that people seek, just doesn't exist, or isn't going to be available.

If anything, the Hawks are destined to get a backup center that can at least play a little defense, to try to neutralize the big men that seem to give us a ton of trouble.

Keep this in mind. When the Celtics made the move that they were going to acquire people to win an NBA title, they didn't get rid of Paul Pierce ( their best, but much maligned player at the time ). No . . . they got rid of all of their young talent and inconsistent talent. They knew that without Pierce, a title was not possible. Just keep all of this in mind when you come of with all of those trade scenarios for JJ.

Star players win championships . . . not complimentary guys.

And because of that, people should NEVER talk about the Hawks and "Championship" in the same sentence, until our star players play like superstars, and our young guys play like star players on a nightly basis.

In the meantime, simply enjoy the fact that the Hawks are 30 - 16, and in the hunt for a division title and possibly a top 3 seed, instead of worrying about whether we can win a title with this group. That is a loooooong way away.

[Buzzard]

We weren't a championship caliber team before the season started, but we're closer to being that right now. We're a solid playoff contender. Funny how that isn't all of a sudden good enough for people anymore.

The problem is, this group hasn't gotten a chance to play in the playoffs yet ( with Crawford ), to see just how good they can be. If we make it to the Eastern Conference Finals, this season is NOT a failure. It'll prove that this current core just may be "championship material" if they can get that far in the playoffs. But people want to tweak the lineup, before they play one playoff game, which is kind of crazy.

When you look at our core players, these are the state of those players games:

JJ - about the same, if not a little bit better of a scorer now, than he has been the past 3 years

Crawford - a lot better than he has at any point in his career

Smoove - has improved his post up game against average defenders, and is back to stuffing the stat sheet on a nightly basis

Horford - improved midrange jumpshooting over the past two seasons and is a little better defensively.

Marvin - becoming more erratic with his jumpshooting, about the same defensively, still too inactive of a player.

Bibby - less serviceable than a year ago, and is becoming somewhat unreliable on both ends of the floor

Zaza - nowhere near as consistent of a player off the bench as he was a year ago

Mo - 3 point shot is more erratic and he's less reliable defensively,

So your solution, is to keep all of our inconsistent players around, but get rid of our BEST PLAYER? The one guy who can literally put this team on his back and carry us to victory? This is the flawed thinking in full display around here about this team. JJ isn't keeping us from winning a title. It's the guys around him that's doing it. For us to win a title, JJ will have to play at an All-NBA level. But the people around him will have to play at a much, much higher level than what they're playing at right now.

There are no young centers to trade JJ for. Clippers aren't giving up Kaman. That would be silly of them to do. Memphis sure in the heck isn't giving up Marc Gasol. He helps anchor that team offensively. Lakers aren't trading Bynum, unless it's for another all-star Forward/Center. The "young center" that people seek, just doesn't exist, or isn't going to be available.

If anything, the Hawks are destined to get a backup center that can at least play a little defense, to try to neutralize the big men that seem to give us a ton of trouble.

Keep this in mind. When the Celtics made the move that they were going to acquire people to win an NBA title, they didn't get rid of Paul Pierce ( their best, but much maligned player at the time ). No . . . they got rid of all of their young talent and inconsistent talent. They knew that without Pierce, a title was not possible. Just keep all of this in mind when you come of with all of those trade scenarios for JJ.

Star players win championships . . . not complimentary guys.

And because of that, people should NEVER talk about the Hawks and "Championship" in the same sentence, until our star players play like superstars, and our young guys play like star players on a nightly basis.

In the meantime, simply enjoy the fact that the Hawks are 30 - 16, and in the hunt for a division title and possibly a top 3 seed, instead of worrying about whether we can win a title with this group. That is a loooooong way away.

I know we have our differences over Woody northcyde, but this is one of the best, most logical, post I have read here in a while. The only way Sund trades JJ at all this season is if he knows he is going to bolt. Otherwise JJ is our only and best chance at a title. Period end of story.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Buzzard

[MaceCase]

I know we have our differences over Woody northcyde, but this is one of the best, most logical, post I have read here in a while. The only way Sund trades JJ at all this season is if he knows he is going to bolt. Otherwise JJ is our only and best chance at a title. Period end of story.

Even more blasphemy.