Mark Bradley article about Iso Joe

[Sothron]

I've still yet to see Joe pass to Crawford for an assist.

[arhawkfan]

I've still yet to see Joe pass to Crawford for an assist.

You havent watched much then have you.

[Atlantaholic]

I've still yet to see Joe pass to Crawford for an assist.

He passes to Jamal as much as he passes to anyone else on the team... which is not that much.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL @ this thread. It's just shameful.

I've pretty much disproven everything that has been said in this thread . . . but I did it in Bradley's blog in that article. If I weren't at work right now, I'd copy and paste everything I wrote over there this morning, and post it here ( outside of my first post . . which I basically copied and pasted from my first post here ).

If he leaves, it's not because of his play. He's playing better than he did last year, contrary to popular belief. if he leaves, It'll be partially because the writers and some of you fans don't appreciate the guy at all. Hopefully the Hawks management doesn't share the same views as some of our fans.

LOL . . his usage is the same, but his "nimbers" are up despite playing lesser minutes . . yet . . people have a problem with that?

I guess people don't want JJ playing or trying to play at a superstar level for some reason.

And why do people continue to have this JJ vs Jamal discussion? Why can't people view them as a lethal scoring combination that compliments each other . . . instead of players who are supposedly jealous of each other?

When you view the highlights of the Boston game on NBA.com, he sure didn't look like a jealous dude to me. He was the first one off the bench when Crawford hit the half court shot. And you saw him stand up on the bench and say something to him as he was making one of his threes in that game.

Crawford reacts the same way when he's on the bench and JJ has it going.

You fans and you media writers trying to creat some JJ vs Jamal thing really need to cut that out. Start viewing them as a duo, if you have a hard time appreciating each player's individual game.

[Sothron]

You havent watched much then have you.

I watch almost every game and I still can't recall JJ passing to Crawford for an assist. It seems like it is one or the other that takes the shot and they virtually ignore each other on the court between them. I can't be the only one that's noticed that.

[arhawkfan]

I watch almost every game and I still can't recall JJ passing to Crawford for an assist. It seems like it is one or the other that takes the shot and they virtually ignore each other on the court between them. I can't be the only one that's noticed that.

I am not going to look back at every game but @ the 8:19 mark of the 2nd quarter against Orlando JJ assisted Crawford on a 3. There you go

[TheFormerJJBacker]

I can't believe I keep letting you silly folks bait me into posting things on here... but this whole Joe vs. Crawford concept is so ridiculous. Ya'll watch too much "Mean Girls" or something? Why must everything be some sort of soap opera? Joe likes having Crawford around. Craw loves having Joe. Both these dudes are happy. Both these dudes root one another on. A few general points before I actually put numbers on here (those tend to either be ignored or a thread killer):

1) This article is lame. Northcyde and I have been saying this for a while... but I love how "Iso Joe" is a problem. Has Bradley not watched another team play hoops? Has anyone watched a Heat game? Or a Cavs game? Or a Laker game? Or a (fill in team with All-Star caliber wing player) game? Every team in the NBA runs "Iso __________" - where that blank is "random superstar x." I mean we lost to the Knicks with the Knicks running "Iso Nate." Was Bradley around in the 80's and 90's? This isn't some new phenomenon. Typically in crunch time, a team gives the ball to their best perimeter player and says "do your thing." This isn't new. This isn't a Hawk specific problem. I love how Bradley makes this "when Joe's on, Iso Joe wins. When he's off - it loses" statement. Um - thanks for the news flash, dog. If Nate isn't white-hot - we don't lose to the Knicks. If Kobe's cold in the 4th (as he was much of the game) vs. Celts on Sunday - Lakers lose that game. All NBA teams (not just the Hawks) somewhat live and die by their better players. When the Wade is off - most games, the Heat lose. I mean truly - an absolutely worthless article. Hey NBA fans! When you're star is off - it's hard to win! Where's my Pulitzer?

2) People on here discuss how Joe doesn't get many assists to Crawford. Could that possibly be due to the fact that both guys do most of their scoring with the ball in their hands? Or that they do spend much of the first 3 quarters not really being on the court at the same time? I mean when Crawford has the ball - it's a lot of dribbling - and a penetrate and kick or penetrate and dish inside... or a shot. Joe's pretty much doing the same thing. Does anyone consider Crawford a "spot-up shooter?" I mean sure - he can hit an open bucket... but typically when he gets the ball - he's slashing to the hoop. He's more likely to shoot a pull-up 3 off the dribble than catch and shoot. I don't think this is that crazy of a generalization for me to make. If I'm having to argue this point to anyone - I give up. Both Joe and Crawford do their best work off of the dribble. It's pretty simple.

3) With that being said - people say Joe gets assists to Bibby more than Crawford. Is that a surprise? Pretty much all Bibby's doing these days is hanging around the 3 point line and shooting 3's out of Joe's double team. Bibby's a different player than Crawford is. If Joe passes to Crawford out of that double team - Crawford's driving hard to the hoop and looking to get an easy bucket or assist. Bibby? He's jacking up a three. It's pretty safe to assume that Joe would get more assists to Bibby than Crawford. Because they're two different players. It's not because Joe likes one guy more than the other.

(NOTE: I have no idea why no-one brings up the fact that Joe and Jamal basically do the same thing with the rock. That's why Joe doesn't have a ton of assists to Crawford. Cause he passes to Crawford and it becomes Iso Crawford or Crawford's dribbling with the ball for a bit and either shooting or passing again. I'll touch on this later)

So - because I enjoy looking at numbers, and subsequently posting them on here only for nobody to care about them other than Northcyde... while the rest of you either skip my post completely or read it and act as if it never happened... here's the raw 2010 data (I didn't feel like doing all season).

Joe's Assists 2010:

Total Assists - 69

Distribution:

Josh Smith - 19 (27.5% of Joe's assists)

Mike Bibby - 18 (26.1%)

Marvin Williams - 13 (18.8%)

Al Horford - 12 (17.4%)

Jamal Crawford - 5 (7.2%)

Mo Evans - 2 (2.9%)

Joe seems to get more assists to our high-flier or a "spot up shooter" that's always wide open from 19 feet (:-) ), a spot up shooter (Bibby), another mostly spot-up shooter (Marvin - at least that's what I would assume most of these assists are), our Post guy that runs the floor well (Horford). Crawford has 5 buckets off of Joe passes (remember this number... as it will be important later).

I keep mentioning that due to the nature of what Jamal does - he doesn't really lend himself to anyone (let alone, Joe) getting assists off of his makes. That's because, like Joe, Jamal does a lot of iso work - and scores unassisted buckets.

I'll give you a game log:

2/2 - Jamal Crawford makes 3 shots. One is assisted by Mo Evans. One is assisted by Joe Smith. The Third? Unassisted.

1/30 - Jamal Crawford makes 6 shots. One is assisted by Joe Johnson. The other 5 are all unassisted.

1/29 - Jamal Crawford makes 9 shots. One is assisted by Jeff Teague. One is assisted by Zaza Pachulia. One is assisted by Al Horford. The other 6 shots are all unassisted.

1/27 - Jamal Crawford makes 10 shots. One is assisted by Jeff Teague. Two assisted by Josh Smith. His other 7 makes? Unassisted.

1/25 - Jamal Crawford makes 6 shots. ZaZa Pachulia assisted on one. The other 5 makes? Unassisted.

1/22 - Jamal Crawford makes 8 shots. ZaZa Pachulia assisted on one. Jeff Teague assisted on one. Al Horford assisted on one. Joe Johnson assisted on one. Mike Bibby assisted on one. The other 3? Unassisted.

1/20 - Jamal Crawford makes 7 shots. Joe Johnson assisted on 2. Jeff Teague assisted on one. Al Horford assisted on one. ZaZa Pachulia assisted on one. The other 2 makes? Unassisted.

1/18 - Jamal Crawford makes 4 shots. Josh Smith assists on 1. The other 3? Unassisted.

1/15 - Jamal Crawford makes 6 shots. Mo Evans assists on 1. The other 5? Unassisted.

1/13 - Jamal Crawford makes 9 shots. Jeff Teague assists on 1. Joe Johnson assists on 1. Josh Smith assists on 2. Mike Bibby assists on 1. The other 4? Unassisted.

1/11 - Jamal Crawford makes 4 shots. Al Horford assists on 1. The other 3 makes? Unassisted.

1/9 - Jamal Crawford makes 4 shots. All 4 are unassisted.

1/8 - Jamal Crawford makes 7 shots. Mike Bibby assists on 1. The other 6 are unassisted.

1/6 - Jamal Crawford makes 10 shots. Jeff Teague assists on 2. Josh Smith assists on 2. Al Horford assists on 1. Mo Evans assists on 2. Joe Smith assists on 1. The other 2 - unassisted.

1/5 - Jamal Crawford makes 5 shots. Josh Smith assists on 1. His other 4 makes were unassisted.

1/1- Jamal Crawford makes 2 shots. Al Horford assists on 1. The other was unassisted.

So in 2010, Jamal Crawford is 100/223 (44.8% FG's). Of those 100 makes - 61 were unassisted. That leaves 39 makes in 2010 by Jamal Crawford that had an assist attached to em:

Josh Smith - 8 assists to Crawford

Jeff Teague - 7 assists to Crawford

Al Horford - 6 assists to Crawford

Joe Johnson - 5 assists to Crawford

ZaZa Pachulia - 4 assists to Crawford

Mo Evans - 4 assists to Crawford

Mike Bibby - 3 assists to Crawford

Joe Smith - 2 assists to Crawford

Joe and Josh have basically averaged the same number of assists per night in 2010 (Joe has 69 assists in that time, Josh has 68). Over 16 games, Josh has 3 more assists to Jamal than Joe? You factor in that Joe and Jamal typically have periods of time in which one is in while the other is out (so the Hawks still have a "scorer" on the court at all times)... and Joe "doesn't ever pass to Jamal?" Again - I know numbers can scare some of you guys... so you'll immediately want to change the subject... but you want to see assists on Jamal's buckets. Sothron can't remember an assist from Joe to Jamal. Can anyone really remember any assists to Jamal? 24 of Jamal's last 34 makes have been unassisted!

Earlier in my post I mentioned that Jamal does most of his work "solo"' so there's no real assists to be had. He's made 100 shots in 2010. 61% of them are unassisted. Josh leads the team during that span with eight assists to Jamal. He has 3 more assists to Jamal than Joe does. 3. 3 assists in over a month is the difference between leading the team in assists to Jamal in 2010 and being Joe and apparently never passing to Jamal, and having some deep-seeded, uber-hatred for Jamal fueled by jealousy. Get a grip people.

Earlier in the post I tried to make the statement that both Joe and Jamal are at their best when they have the ball, and run similar "iso" offenses. I showed who Joe passes to. Let's look at who Jamal passes to (I'm betting it looks pretty similar):

Total assists - 50.

Al Horford - 14 (28% of Jamal's assists)

Josh Smith - 12 (24%)

ZaZa Pachulia - 7 (14%)

Joe Smith - 5 (10%)

Joe Johnson - 5 (10%)

Mo Evans - 4 (8%)

Mike Bibby - 2 (4%)

Marvin Williams - 2 (4%)

Jeff Teague - 1 (2%)

For those of you with short memories (or an inability to scroll) - Jamal has the same number of assists to Joe as Joe has to Jamal in 2010. 5. They've each assisted on 5 of each others makes. So if Sothron can't remember a Joe assist to Jamal... I'm guessing he shouldn't be able to remember a Jamal assist to Joe... because they've happened the exact same number of times over the past 16 games. FYI - this isn't because they don't like each other. Or that Joe hates Crawford or is jealous. It's because they do a lot of the same things offensively. They're both best with the ball in their hands. They both create things off the dribble. They both get a boatload of un-assisted buckets (I'm guessing Joe has around 60% of his buckets unassisted... just like Jamal). It also means that when someone passes them the ball, a lot of times they end up dribbling it or doing something else with it (eliminating that prior players ability to get an assist).

So again - Bradley's article is garbage. And I figured I'd actually bring stats into the equation as opposed to some sort of soap opera fantasy most of you people have about this Joe vs. Crawford issue that apparently exists. If you people knew as much about Basketball as you did about "HIgh School Musical" - you'd realize there's no issue. Quit trying to make something out of nothing... and remember if Joe gets four more assists to Jamal before Smoov gets another one... Joe will lead the team in assists to Crawford.

In other news - you guys keep talking about Joe's game declining. There was a post earlier about these past 5 games being a test. Here's how Joe did during our "test:"

26.8 PPG

3.4 AST

5 REB

1.6 STL

54% FG

45.45% 3-PT FG

94.1% FT

Joe's PER for 09/10 season (going into last night) - 19.59 (a career high). His usage (cause people say he's ball-hoggin it?) - 25.5 (lat year it was 25.2; in 06/07... which a lot of people regard as his best year here - 26.6). That usage stat ranks Joe 17th in the NBA. Not too shabby for a "ball hog that chucks." You talk about "iso-Joe" being a pandemic here in Atlanta? His usage rate is 17th in the league. What would Bradley have to say about the 16 teams and players above the Hawks? Think they use Iso - _____________ more than we do? Exactly.

(PS - Usg Usage Rate is the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace))

Sheesh, now feel free to make believe this post never happened... cause it's easier to complain and make up theories than it is to look at stuff.

M

[NineOhTheRino]

I guarantee you that this is the only town complaining about it's best player being a hog. Just get rid of him and lets see how good this team will be.

Cyde I hate making it a Joe vs Crawford thing too but I get sick and tired of the anti-Joe faction (HS.net, Bob and Nique) propping up Jamal Crawford as this great player that's worthy of replacing Joe as the #1 guy. Yes Crawford is an scorer but that's all he is. Jamal never runs offense and his defense is atrocious. JJ otoh is a complete player that often leads the team in points, assist and is usually the best defender on the floor.

Edited February 3, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[Sothron]

I'm not trying to say anything about Joe or Crawford other than what I have said. Someone has numbers from, well, somewhere that claims five times Joe assisted Crawford this year. If that is true it only vouches what I said. Having our offense be dependent on two guys taking turns playing iso games isn't going to get us anywhere in the playoffs.

[spotatl]

The Hawks have the 6th highest assist rate in the league just FYI.

[arhawkfan]

I'm not trying to say anything about Joe or Crawford other than what I have said. Someone has numbers from, well, somewhere that claims five times Joe assisted Crawford this year. If that is true it only vouches what I said. Having our offense be dependent on two guys taking turns playing iso games isn't going to get us anywhere in the playoffs.

That was just in January. If you notice the most by any player to him was 8. That goes into reading what you want to read.

[AHF]

While I am obviously not a fan of iso to the exclusion of other options on offense like we currently have, I do agree that the JJ/Crawford "rivalry" is a ridiculous fiction and the JJ is a better player than Crawford (i.e., this team is much worse if we lose JJ and insert Crawford as our starting SG). Big picture, I see our iso offense as a valuable and good part of our offense but I hate the fact that we don't have an option B. I don't have any worries about JJ and Crawford not working together at this point.

[Sothron]

That was just in January. If you notice the most by any player to him was 8. That goes into reading what you want to read.

That's if the numbers are accurate actually. And since we played what one game so far in Feb I think saying it was just in January is reading into it what you want to read into it. :snowballfight:

[TheNorthCydeRises]

JJBacker . . when I saw that Bradley article, I made it my mission to tear that ish apart piece by piece, because it was pure BS. It's almost like people are deliberately trying to cause some sort of rift on this team, to either sabotage the season, discredit Woody, or run JJ out of town.

You see the article that Bradley wrote, and compare it to the article Schultz wrote a few days earlier, and you really have to wonder what the hell is going on in Atlanta. I know those guys ( especially Schultz ) have spent years ripping the Hawks. But now that the Hawks are a legit team, and having their best season in over a decade, they still can't write any positive articles about this team. Then you have some in the fan base who are hypercritical of JJ for some crazy reason right now. They're acting like a jealous boyfriend or something.

JJ hasn't offensively played this well since he first got here. The games he's having on the road alone ( especially in big games ), shows how he's improving as a player. Just take a look at some of the games he's had when he's led the Hawks in scoring, but we end up losing the game. This is for those people who say that JJ doesn't show up for big games.

- Nov 1 @ Lakers: ( JJ – 27 points, 8 – 16 FG, 9 rebs )

- Nov 26 vs Orlando: ( JJ – 22 points, 9 – 21 FG )

- Dec 4 vs Knicks: ( JJ – 29 points, 12 – 24 FG . . also had 8 rebs and 8 assists )

- Dec 19 @ Chicago: ( JJ – 40 points, 16 – 32 FG )

- Dec 30 @ Cleveland: ( JJ – 35 points, 15 – 25 FG )

- Jan 1 vs Knicks: ( JJ – 28 points, 12 – 30 FG, 8 rebs, 5 asst )

- Jan 27 @ San Antonio – ( JJ – 31 points, 15 – 26 FG )

- Jan 30 @ Orlando – ( JJ – 19 points, 8 – 16 FG . . 7 assists )

- Feb 2 @ Oklahoma City - ( JJ - 37 points, 13 - 20 FG )

Edited February 3, 2010 by northcyde