Strategery.........

[coachx]

I would have easily preferred Brandon Bass and David Andersen to Zaza. Both signed for less than Zaza did.

Uhhh... Do I need to explain the MLE to you?

Uhhh.....I said except for the MLE.

Do you I need to teach you to read. Its really quite simple:

1. It was either sign ZaZa and still have the MLE to use later.

2. or lose ZaZa and burn up the MLE.

Brandon Bass is 6'8''.........that is not a "big" who can defend centers. Do we need anymore undersized PFs ? Much less coming off an injury who has yet to play a game.

David Anderson is a good shooter but is worse then ZaZa defensively. I would have liked to have had Anderson too but I prefer ZaZa's willingness to bang.

[coachx]

How is it not true?

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9154

It will not be easy but there are ways. Sure it could be true but there are ways around it. Lets start with 2010-11 season since its difficult to go any further into the future without knowing how the new CBA will be constructed.

Lets say we resign JJ to a 6 year $100 mill deal or a 5 year $90 mill deal at around $16 to $18 mill per year. That is roughly $65 mill for 9 players on the books for next year. Add $1.2 mill for our draft pick and we are at $66.2 mill for 10 players.

Assuming the luxury tax limit stays at $69.9 mill we have around $3.7 mill ro fill out the last 2 or 3 roster spots using part of the MLE or resigning our own FAs without using the MLE.

Maybe a good playoff run with more home playoff games could generate the needed revenue and fan growth to warrant a little luxury tax. If we could get out of the 2nd round of the playoffs it would mean alot more nationally televised games for next season and alot more revenue from the additional home sell-out games.

We could draft a SF that opens up a trade of Marvin and Mo for an expiring contract. I don't see Crawford getting a pay upgrade. He will make $10.8 mill next year and we be 31 heading into to he free agency and seems to love Atlanta and loves being in the same city as his son. Getting Marvin off the books would help in resigning Horford. The new CBA is supposed to lower player contracts too.

Of course if push comes to shove then we make a decision on Crawford or Horford but its hard to specualte that far ahead (2011-2012 season) until the new CBA is agreed upon since we don't know what the rules will be.

Edited February 16, 2010 by coachx

[coachx]

Brandon bass played more at center last season than he did at PF. I'd easily take him over Zaza on this team.

The Hawks had the rights to David Andersen- he signed for less than Zaza and brings a skill set that the Hawks could really use. I'd easily take him over Zaza on this team.

I agree to disagree.

I like Bass alot as a PF.............I'm just not too hot for 6'8'' centers.

I like David Anderson too and think he signed a good deal. I value his ability to shoot but I wish he would do some of the dirty work that ZaZa does.

Those are 2 good players..............beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[spotatl]

Coachx- you know that the Hawks didn't use the MLE right? You know if the Hawks used the MLE last offseason that they would still be able to use it this coming offseason right?

Brandon bass is simply the better player. I'd easily take him as a Center over Zaza.

David Andersen is on the better contract and after he adjusts to the NBA I think he will be the better player though I agree he isn't demonstrably better at this point. (and I am talking about what I wanted without the benefit of hindsight) He is already on the better contract and I think the hawks could really use a big that could stretch the floor. Against Orlando I think one of the biggest issues is that the hawks don't have a big who can step outside at all. Once again I'd easily take him as a Center over Zaza.

If you would still prefer Zaza over those other guys thats fine, but personally thats who I preferred.

Edited February 16, 2010 by spotatl

[dlpin]

I laid it out for you in my post that your quoted.

I know this board stuggles with reading comprehension.

Before you accuse others of problems with reading comprehension, why don't you go back and point out exactly which part of that long rant you addressed the actual salary situation? Saying that maybe in the new CBA there will be something that will make Horford's contract cheaper isn't a plan, its a hope. Saying that maybe they could dump Marvin's deal on someone else isn't a plan, its a hope. Saying that selling the thrashers will allow them to spend into the luxury tax doesn't even deny that they would have to spend into the luxury tax.

Again, here are the numbers:

for next season: 8 players signed for 47 million. If the luxury tax threshold goes down even by just a couple of million, which at this point seems like a virtual certainty, the hawks would have to go into the luxury tax just to offer a max offer to JJ.

For 2011, as it currently stands, if they resign JJ they will have 45 million in the books for 5 players.

Now, sure, there are ways to dump contracts and get cheaper. I never disputed that. But the whole topic was about creating a title contending team. Your "plan" to have the hawks actually get better as they shed payroll is more of a hope than a plan. Especially since your plan doesn't actually shed that much money. Dumping Marvin for cap relief reduces the payroll, but also makes the hawks worse. Trading Crawford's expiring deal for a better player would also involve taking back a longer term deal for about the same value, so once again you are back at the luxury tax.

[coachx]

Coachx- you know that the Hawks didn't use the MLE right? You know if the Hawks used the MLE last offseason that they would still be able to use it this coming offseason right?

Brandon bass is simply the better player. I'd easily take him as a Center over Zaza.

David Andersen is on the better contract and after he adjusts to the NBA I think he will be the better player though I agree he isn't demonstrably better at this point. (and I am talking about what I wanted without the benefit of hindsight) He is already on the better contract and I think the hawks could really use a big that could stretch the floor. Against Orlando I think one of the biggest issues is that the hawks don't have a big who can step outside at all. Once again I'd easily take him as a Center over Zaza.

If you would still prefer Zaza over those other guys thats fine, but personally thats who I preferred.

I agree that Bass is the better player but when you talk about playoff matchups I do not believe he is the best matchup.

I prefer ZaZa defending Shaq, Howard, Perkins, or KG in the 2nd round of the playoffs then the 6'8'' Bass or Anderson.

David Anderson is on a cheaper contract. No debate there. I just think the dirty work that ZaZa does warrants the extra money. Just an opinion........we all have one.

[coachx]

Before you accuse others of problems with reading comprehension,

My bad on that.............I went back an edited that out. Simply let my emotions get the better of me.

I did try to outline some number crunching in my post above.

[coachx]

Coachx- you know that the Hawks didn't use the MLE right? You know if the Hawks used the MLE last offseason that they would still be able to use it this coming offseason right?

I did not word it correctly as I was thinking big picture.

Using the MLE this past off season would have smashed us right against the luxury tax (and assuming it was for more then 1 year) it would make resigning JJ far more difficult without going into the luxury tax..............and would most definately keep us from using it next year without going into the luxury tax.

Props to Sund, and the players, for making the contracts of ZaZa, Bibby, and Marvin decrease next season to make resigning JJ easier too.

Edited February 16, 2010 by coachx

[Admin]

But it doesn't look like a reasonable deal to anyone else or else some team would be willing to acquire it right now. Maybe those deals were more reasonable 4 years ago, but in the current climate of the NBA where teams are losing money and with Zaza's poor play its a terrible contract RIGHT NOW. If you want to have the imaginary conversation of whether the deal would have been reasonable in 2004 or 1994 then I don't really see the point.

RIGHT NOW zaza has a bad contract.

You keep making statements like this throughout this thread and I'd just like to see you show some proof of this. Let me guess, the proof for you is that he is still on the Hawks roster, right? Did it ever occur to you that the Hawks LIKE Zaza and WANTED to sign him for what they did and that they DON'T WANT to trade him?

And if you want to imagine that a team wouldn't take a minor gamble on Zaza returning to the form he showed as our starter in back to back seasons then by all means continue to believe that but it doesn't make it any less of a personal opinion than the truly outlandish claim I addressed in the previous paragraph.

[spotatl]

Once again Dolfan- let me know the other centers on that list you think that teams would trade straight up for Zaza assuming there were expiring contracts to match salaries. THATS how I know that Zaza has negative value- even as a Hawks fan its easy for me to see who those other teams wouldn't take him right now. If you want to believe otherwise then go right ahead since there is nothing that I nor any fan of another team could say to convince you otherwise. Its just Brutally Obvious to me- you might as well be asking why I don't think that Jared Jefferies has trade value.

Edited February 17, 2010 by spotatl

[Admin]

Once again Dolfan- let me know the other centers on that list you think that teams would trade straight up for Zaza assuming there were expiring contracts to match salaries. THATS how I know that Zaza has negative value- even as a Hawks fan its easy for me to see who those other teams wouldn't take him right now. If you want to believe otherwise then go right ahead since there is nothing that I nor any fan of another team could say to convince you otherwise. Its just Brutally Obvious to me- you might as well be asking why I don't think that Jared Jefferies has trade value.

I'm not the one claiming that a team would or would not trade for Zaza so there's no burden for me to list any teams or centers since it would simply be my opinion vs your opinion and we'll still be in the same place. You'll continue to be convinced that no team would trade for a relatively young 7' 275 lb center who is a terrific offensive rebounder, a fan favorite, and when he last had starters minutes averaged 12/8 in back to back seasons, plus he's only being 4.5 million for each of the next two seasons.

However, you keep repeating time and again how no team wants to trade for him and I'd just like to know how you know that with such certainty. So again I ask you to tell us how you know with certainty that the following is true since this is a statement that you've made and have basically made the same statement in multiple posts within multiple threads.

But it doesn't look like a reasonable deal to anyone else or else some team would be willing to acquire it right now.

[spotatl]

Dolfan- just as I can tell you that no team wants to acquire Jared Jefferies, Dan Gadzuric, Diop, or a whole host of other palyers who have not lived up to the contracts they signed I can tell you that no team wants Zaza's contract. Its OBVIOUS because of the way he has played 2 of the last 3 seasons. No one wants the contract of Zaza Pachulia right now. Literally he has less value than Kwame Brown. Sorry that you are having a tough time coming to grips with this.

You remind me of Sacramento Kings fans who were in denial about how unwanted the contract of Beno Udrih was.

If Zaza starts playing better then he would have trade value- right now he is simply a bad contract. Once again PLEASE tell me the players on that list you think have worse contracts than Zaza. Because thats the proof you are looking for right there.

Edited February 17, 2010 by spotatl

[AHF]

Dolfan- just as I can tell you that no team wants to acquire Jared Jefferies, Dan Gadzuric, Diop, or a whole host of other palyers who have not lived up to the contracts they signed I can tell you that no team wants Zaza's contract. Its OBVIOUS because of the way he has played 2 of the last 3 seasons. No one wants the contract of Zaza Pachulia right now. Literally he has less value than Kwame Brown. Sorry that you are having a tough time coming to grips with this.

You remind me of Sacramento Kings fans who were in denial about how unwanted the contract of Beno Udrih was.

If Zaza starts playing better then he would have trade value- right now he is simply a bad contract.

The obvious difference between Zaza and guys like Jeffries is that Jeffries and the others have been actively shopped by their teams while there have been zero reports that Zaza has been shopped. You can make the same assumption about a lot of players with little or no contact from other teams that hits the press (such as Joel Pryzbilla, etc.).

[spotatl]

I hear no reports of Gadzuric being shopped but I have no problem telling you with complete confidence he has negative trade value.

[AHF]

Gadzuric has been shopped for years.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime_070203-04

Add the name of Bucks center Dan Gadzuric to the list of players being shopped in advance of the Feb. 22 trade deadline.

http://blogs.jsonline.com/bucks/archive/tags/Dan+Gadzuric/default.aspx

The latest edition of the proposed trade had Randolph and guard Fred Jones being offered to the Bucks in exchange for guard Charlie Bell, forward Bobby Simmons and center Dan Gadzuric. All three Bucks players had long-term contracts, while Jones had an expiring contract.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/katz_andy/id/2916834/milwaukee-wants-to-see-yi

Etc.

Basically all you are saying with Zaza is that you are confident that he is overpaid based on your assessment of his play vis-a-vis his contract and so your personal opinion leads you to believe that other GMs wouldn't be interested in him (despite their history of big deals to Mark Blount, Jerome James, etc.)

[spotatl]

Zaza hasn't nearly lived up to his contract so he has negative trade value. I can't believe there were even people who thought this was the least big controversial to point out.

[AHF]

Zaza hasn't nearly lived up to his contract so he has negative trade value. I can't believe there were even people who thought this was the least big controversial to point out.

Yet, you seem the only one making this argument. There is a room for disagreement on the reasonableness of his contract.

[spotatl]

There is a room for disagreement on the reasonableness of his contract.

Not among people who actually are paying attention.

[AHF]

Not among people who actually are paying attention.

Among the ignorant fans who frequent this board. Too bad the rest of us don't pay any attention so we could learn things like why expiring contracts are "not valuable."

[tbhawksfan]

Expiring contract are very valuable. Zaza isn't doing squat and his minutes are way down as a result. It's a bad contract until his play rises to a level that compares favorably to his pay-scale.

JJ is a great expiring, he's about to turn into a bad contract. I like the game JJ has, just not the way he wants to play the game. His next contract might be ok for a year or so, but someone will regret it for about 4 years of the contract.