Would we be here.....

[Diesel]

I think all of us applauded Sund for resigning: Marvin, Bibby, and Zaza this past offseason.

However, I question.. would we be here if we had not?

Here's a thought.

We had a shot at:

Jarrette Jack.

Earl Watson.

for PG.

Solomon Jones.

Chris Wilcox

Theo Ratliff

Jamaal Magloire

Mikki Moore

for C.

Joey Graham

Drew Gooden

Charlie Villanueva

Josh Childress

Tim Thomas

at SF.

The question is had we let those free agents go, could we still be here?

[Plainview1981]

I think all of us applauded Sund for resigning: Marvin, Bibby, and Zaza this past offseason.

However, I question.. would we be here if we had not?

Here's a thought.

We had a shot at:

Jarrette Jack.

Earl Watson.

for PG.

Solomon Jones.

Chris Wilcox

Theo Ratliff

Jamaal Magloire

Mikki Moore

for C.

Joey Graham

Drew Gooden

Charlie Villanueva

Josh Childress

Tim Thomas

at SF.

The question is had we let those free agents go, could we still be here?

I always liked Solo. Yeah, he has a boatload of weaknesses.... But I thinks is game fit with the team. Other than maybe rebounding, he is more productive than Zaza is.

The problem is that all the guys Sund brought back have busted. All three are basically having the worse years of their career. This is the same ZaZa we saw two years ago..... ZaZa's decent play last year was obviously a contract year. Now that he has a new contract he is back to giving the team nothing. Typical of NBA players today.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Hotlanta1981

[DarnShadyRefs]

Good Post. I still think we need Bibby regardless. Even though he is having his worst statistical year, he is woodys coach on offense and brings some sort of calmness to our offense. I don't blame Sund for Signing Zaza and Marvin back. I thought we got a great deal on Marv. It's not like teams for beating our door down for him. Unfortunately, they are playing like they didn't even practice this offseason. It's time Marvin stops going to his comfort zone UNC and traing with steve smith or an NBA player this offseason. That is the only way for him to take the next step. Woody doesn't get on some of these guys enough during offseason about what he needs from them. He mentions it in the media but doesn't give them advice and suggestions on how to achieve their goals.

[Joker]

[Diesel]

Good Post. I still think we need Bibby regardless. Even though he is having his worst statistical year, he is woodys coach on offense and brings some sort of calmness to our offense. I don't blame Sund for Signing Zaza and Marvin back. I thought we got a great deal on Marv. It's not like teams for beating our door down for him. Unfortunately, they are playing like they didn't even practice this offseason. It's time Marvin stops going to his comfort zone UNC and traing with steve smith or an NBA player this offseason. That is the only way for him to take the next step. Woody doesn't get on some of these guys enough during offseason about what he needs from them. He mentions it in the media but doesn't give them advice and suggestions on how to achieve their goals.

The debate is not about what did happened. The question is would we be here had we not signed those guys.

To your statement, i say that Jarrett Jack or Earl Watson could have done probably just as well in our offense as Bibby... and probably cheaper. I think we were really close to giving Jack our MLE.

[hawkman]

The debate is not about what did happened. The question is would we be here had we not signed those guys.

To your statement, i say that Jarrett Jack or Earl Watson could have done probably just as well in our offense as Bibby... and probably cheaper. I think we were really close to giving Jack our MLE.

Jarrett Jack would've been great here. He's a decent offensive player and a good defensive PG. I'm a bit of a GT homer but I've always liked his hard nosed game and his desire to step up in clutch situations.

[Diesel]

Jarrett Jack would've been great here. He's a decent offensive player and a good defensive PG. I'm a bit of a GT homer but I've always liked his hard nosed game and his desire to step up in clutch situations.

The one thing I really liked about Bibby is that he was always able to drain the open three. This season, not so much. I was hoping that the Price touch would continue with him. I don't see that same shooter in Jack. Jack does have a nice power drive though.

[Colin]

I think that the re-signings were very important for a continuity and chemistry point of view, and it was the right move, regardless of how we're doing now. Bibby improved this team, and is good at handling the offense and calming the team down. Not to mention, he understand when he needs to defer to Joe or somebody else. Marvin did what we needed, and we thought he would continue to grow, rather than sit stagnant. Zaza is a crowd favorite and showed signs of finally playing within himself. That being said, I don't think anyone on that list is an improvement over what we have.

Watson/Jack could do what Bibby is doing for a bit cheaper, statwise, but Bibby knows this offense and knows the players strengths/weaknesses.

Wilcox would have been nice I suppose as a cheaper backup big option, but look at his stats, not as productive as Zaza, plus not as intimidating to some of our opponents. Though, much less awkward.

None of those SFs are an improvement besides perhaps Villanueva, and i'm not a big fan of his either, and looking at his stats, he is doing nothing that Marvin isn't. Gooden is nice, but Gooden/Smoove at the 3/4 is not what I want out on the floor, though I definitely wanted Gooden as a big off the bench, but it just didn't work out that way.

In my opinion, the Hawks made the best of the situation with these signings, though the contract lengths are easily up for debate. No combination of pickups at those three positions would make us better than we are now, and I really believe that.

You have to realize that our team is at least comfortable playing with each other now, integrating new players isn't just an automatic process, and I like the fact that our team has grown up together.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Colin

[hawkman]

The one thing I really liked about Bibby is that he was always able to drain the open three. This season, not so much. I was hoping that the Price touch would continue with him. I don't see that same shooter in Jack. Jack does have a nice power drive though.

You are right about Jack not being the pure shooter Bibby is, but I think he still can improve. Stephen Curry would fit in perfectly with what we have right now. He could score easily if all he had to do was just camp out around the perimeter and do what he does best, shoot. I just wish Teague looked like the player he was in that early Laker game. He looked like he would take over as the starter in the latter half of the season, but he's regressed a bit which makes the PG situation seem even worse. I'm not giving up on Bibby just yet though. Maybe he's just struggling right now. It's not like his game relies on superior athleticism or quickness. His number should slowly decline rather than this major drop-off we see right now.

[Diesel]

You are right about Jack not being the pure shooter Bibby is, but I think he still can improve. Stephen Curry would fit in perfectly with what we have right now. He could score easily if all he had to do was just camp out around the perimeter and do what he does best, shoot. I just wish Teague looked like the player he was in that early Laker game. He looked like he would take over as the starter in the latter half of the season, but he's regressed a bit which makes the PG situation seem even worse. I'm not giving up on Bibby just yet though. Maybe he's just struggling right now. It's not like his game relies on superior athleticism or quickness. His number should slowly decline rather than this major drop-off we see right now.

There's a Woody effect on Rookie PGs. Woody only cares about the defensive side of the ball. Teague has to be good defensively if he wants to be a Hawk playing minutes. Honestly, I think it's up to Sund to put pressure on Woody to play Teague more. IF Woody fails with Teague, I can see Sund forcing an offensive coach on Woody during his next tenure as coach. Maybe Bob Hill.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

There's a Woody effect on Rookie PGs. Woody only cares about the defensive side of the ball. Teague has to be good defensively if he wants to be a Hawk playing minutes. Honestly, I think it's up to Sund to put pressure on Woody to play Teague more. IF Woody fails with Teague, I can see Sund forcing an offensive coach on Woody during his next tenure as coach. Maybe Bob Hill.

How long can you keep this excuse up about Teague though? At what point does Teague have to simply TAKE playing time from Bibby? Teague actually played well in the Clipper game on the defensive end. But the kid has to become a complete backup PG. And he has to play consistently good defense. Would it hurt the kid to make a lay-up?

Blaming Woody gets old, especially when you can CLEARLY see the deficiencies in a player.

[gsuteke]

Who knows with team chemistry but the bargains we all thought we got this summer have fizzled.

[hawkman]

Who knows with team chemistry but the bargains we all thought we got this summer have fizzled.

Very true. I thought we did well with the signings of Marv, Zaza, and Bibby at the time. Now, I'm not so sure. Marv is the most frustrating because he is so young and had a great seson last year. I do feel like the team has improved, but I'm a little worried about the regression of some of the players. I feel like the Hawks have a very real chance of getting to the ECF if they can get everyone on board and playing like they are capable of.

[Diesel]

How long can you keep this excuse up about Teague though? At what point does Teague have to simply TAKE playing time from Bibby? Teague actually played well in the Clipper game on the defensive end. But the kid has to become a complete backup PG. And he has to play consistently good defense. Would it hurt the kid to make a lay-up?

Blaming Woody gets old, especially when you can CLEARLY see the deficiencies in a player.

Well, it's rare that you see first year PGs take the starting position from a good vet PG.

A 21 year old Devin Harris sat on the bench behind Jason Terry his freshman year.

Harris statline was 15.9 mpg, 5.7 ppg, 2.2 apg., 1.3 rpg, he shot 43% from the field and 33% from three.

I think that Teague just needs more time down the stretch. He has to build up confidence... just like Harris did.

[gsuteke]

Well, it's rare that you see first year PGs take the starting position from a good vet PG.

A 21 year old Devin Harris sat on the bench behind Jason Terry his freshman year.

Harris statline was 15.9 mpg, 5.7 ppg, 2.2 apg., 1.3 rpg, he shot 43% from the field and 33% from three.

I think that Teague just needs more time down the stretch. He has to build up confidence... just like Harris did.

Bibby ain't very good right now which is why you started this thread.

[Diesel]

Bibby ain't very good right now which is why you started this thread.

Actually, I don't think Bibby is very bad. I think he could do better. Bibby is a victim of being overlooked for those things that he does. Somebody brought up the argument that Bibby is like the coach on the floor for our offense. He never gets applauded for that because for many of us, the bottom line is what we can put in the statbox.

My thoughts about starting this thread were not about the players.. (really).. however, it was about the salaries.

Could we still be the same team without these players being resigned.

I wonder what would have happened if we signed Marvin to a 1 year deal?

I still like the Bibby deal because of consistency. I may challenge people who say that very thing but the truth is, I have lived through the Hawks giving up it's starting Backcourt in a trade and I learned from that that you should never do that.

[Joker]

Actually, I don't think Bibby is very bad. I think he could do better. Bibby is a victim of being overlooked for those things that he does. Somebody brought up the argument that Bibby is like the coach on the floor for our offense. He never gets applauded for that because for many of us, the bottom line is what we can put in the statbox.

My thoughts about starting this thread were not about the players.. (really).. however, it was about the salaries.

Could we still be the same team without these players being resigned.

I wonder what would have happened if we signed Marvin to a 1 year deal?

I still like the Bibby deal because of consistency. I may challenge people who say that very thing but the truth is, I have lived through the Hawks giving up it's starting Backcourt in a trade and I learned from that that you should never do that.

You can defend Bibby but hate on Marvin, lol. Diesel being Diesel.

[gsuteke]

Actually Diesel if I'm understanding where he's going here raises a very good question - how much worse off would we be competitively right now if we replaced bibby, marvin, and zaza with vet minimum players? If Sund would have done that would we be a player this offseason capwise if Joe walked? Someone would have to sit down and do the math. I'm positive we wouldn't have been able to sign Joe and another top FA. Atleast we would have had some recourse though if Joe left.

Marvin sucks but Mo Evans sucks more. However Stackhouse and a plethora of other options via trade were available to plug in @ SF.

Even the biggest Marvin disliker couldn't have seen this guy going this far backwards this summer.

And I think bibby is a little overvalued here since he can't buy a jumper.

[Diesel]

Actually Diesel if I'm understanding where he's going here raises a very good question - how much worse off would we be competitively right now if we replaced bibby, marvin, and zaza with vet minimum players? If Sund would have done that would we be a player this offseason capwise if Joe walked? Someone would have to sit down and do the math. I'm positive we wouldn't have been able to sign Joe and another top FA. Atleast we would have had some recourse though if Joe left.

Marvin sucks but Mo Evans sucks more. However Stackhouse and a plethora of other options via trade were available to plug in @ SF.

Even the biggest Marvin disliker couldn't have seen this guy going this far backwards this summer.

And I think bibby is a little overvalued here since he can't buy a jumper.

That's where I was going.

I think we would have been a bigger player at the deadline and in this offseason had we signed Vet Min players. Some of which are pretty good.

Woody talks about what he sees at the core.

I think the core is a little smaller...

Namely Smoove, Joe, Horf, Jamal. Everybody else is not much of a contributor to our wins... although I am undervaluing Bibby.

If I could play advocate a little more:

What if:

Jack instead of Bibby.

Solo Instead of Zaza.

Flip instead of Marvin.

We sign these guys to cheap deals.... Maybe Jack gets a three year deal.

Here's my lineup:

Jack/Teague

Jamal/Flip

Joe/ Moe

Josh/Joe Smith

Horf/Solo/Collins/Morris

I suppose we could have saved 10-12 million this year.

Jamal is not 6th man of the year candidate but MIP?

I think the big thing is Jarrett Jack. Could he have run this offense? Could we be effective with Joe and Jamal being our main shooters.

What if we would have picked up Watson for insurance?

These are thoughts.

Also... How much would Teague have grown by now?

Would Woody have played him?

[Atlantaholic]

Teague needs more of Bibby's playing time because of his defense. There really is no question about it. You've got Bibby out there and the defense doesn't even get out on him anymore because he can't shoot (under 28% on threes this month), plus you've got the other team's offense abusing him on defense all game. At least Teague can have an impact on one side of the floor.