Trying to force Horford/Smoove to be post scorers is right for development . . .

[TheNorthCydeRises]

When Smoove and Horford have it going, it's because they're being fed the ball in ideal scoring position. Both of these guys see around 65% of their made baskets coming via assists, which is an indication that you can't simply throw the ball to them in the post, and expect them to score. A lot of times, they're feeding each other the ball. But as far as creating their own offense, they're not that good of scorers yet in their careers.

Josh Smith shoots so terrible from outside of 5 feet, that he should hardly ever be trusted to give you ISO post offense, unless he has a DISTINCT advantage over his man. Josh is best when he gets the ball 12 - 15 feet from the basket, and he can face his man up and take him off the dribble. When his back is to the basket, his game is significantly diminished. And we're not going to talk about his jumpshooting. That's been discussed ad nauseum.

The same really goes with Horford, although he is a better back to the basket post scorer than Smoove. He sees more of his made shots assisted than Smoove does, because he can knock down the 12 - 16 foot face up jumper. He's a catch and shoot guy, not a post guy. 6 of Horford's 7 made shots in the 3rd quarter, came via assists. 5 of them coming from Smoove. For the game, 7 of Horford's 10 FG makes came via assists.

In one way, this is the main case made by people for more ball movement in the offense. On the other hand, it simply proves that these guys can't create their own offense in the post, like other good post scorers do. This means that this team will continue to battle bouts of horrible offense, if our defense isn't creating offense ( like it was in the 3rd quarter ) . . or if our shooters go cold. They simply can't be trusted to be go-to scorers for a chunk in a game.

[Sothron]

When Smoove and Horford have it going, it's because they're being fed the ball in ideal scoring position. Both of these guys see around 65% of their made baskets coming via assists, which is an indication that you can't simply throw the ball to them in the post, and expect them to score. A lot of times, they're feeding each other the ball. But as far as creating their own offense, they're not that good of scorers yet in their careers.

Josh Smith shoots so terrible from outside of 5 feet, that he should hardly ever be trusted to give you ISO post offense, unless he has a DISTINCT advantage over his man. Josh is best when he gets the ball 12 - 15 feet from the basket, and he can face his man up and take him off the dribble. When his back is to the basket, his game is significantly diminished. And we're not going to talk about his jumpshooting. That's been discussed ad nauseum.

The same really goes with Horford, although he is a better back to the basket post scorer than Smoove. He sees more of his made shots assisted than Smoove does, because he can knock down the 12 - 16 foot face up jumper. He's a catch and shoot guy, not a post guy. 6 of Horford's 7 made shots in the 3rd quarter, came via assists. 5 of them coming from Smoove. For the game, 7 of Horford's 10 FG makes came via assists.

In one way, this is the main case made by people for more ball movement in the offense. On the other hand, it simply proves that these guys can't create their own offense in the post, like other good post scorers do. This means that this team will continue to battle bouts of horrible offense, if our defense isn't creating offense ( like it was in the 3rd quarter ) . . or if our shooters go cold. They simply can't be trusted to be go-to scorers for a chunk in a game.

I do think Horford can be a reliable low post scorer if given the chance. The problem is that we have a natural 4 forced to play at 5 and we can't move him to 4 unless we trade the team's most popular player to do it.

[BusBoyIsBack]

I do think Horford can be a reliable low post scorer if given the chance. The problem is that we have a natural 4 forced to play at 5 and we can't move him to 4 unless we trade the team's most popular player to do it.

Problem is we misdiagnose things after a loss. Our PG position is the weakest position on the team not our 4/5 matchup.

We need Teague to develop into an AVERAGE point guard. Then we'd be fine

[DarnShadyRefs]

When Smoove and Horford have it going, it's because they're being fed the ball in ideal scoring position. Both of these guys see around 65% of their made baskets coming via assists, which is an indication that you can't simply throw the ball to them in the post, and expect them to score. A lot of times, they're feeding each other the ball. But as far as creating their own offense, they're not that good of scorers yet in their careers.

Josh Smith shoots so terrible from outside of 5 feet, that he should hardly ever be trusted to give you ISO post offense, unless he has a DISTINCT advantage over his man. Josh is best when he gets the ball 12 - 15 feet from the basket, and he can face his man up and take him off the dribble. When his back is to the basket, his game is significantly diminished. And we're not going to talk about his jumpshooting. That's been discussed ad nauseum.

The same really goes with Horford, although he is a better back to the basket post scorer than Smoove. He sees more of his made shots assisted than Smoove does, because he can knock down the 12 - 16 foot face up jumper. He's a catch and shoot guy, not a post guy. 6 of Horford's 7 made shots in the 3rd quarter, came via assists. 5 of them coming from Smoove. For the game, 7 of Horford's 10 FG makes came via assists.

In one way, this is the main case made by people for more ball movement in the offense. On the other hand, it simply proves that these guys can't create their own offense in the post, like other good post scorers do. This means that this team will continue to battle bouts of horrible offense, if our defense isn't creating offense ( like it was in the 3rd quarter ) . . or if our shooters go cold. They simply can't be trusted to be go-to scorers for a chunk in a game.

I partially agree with you northcyde but saying Josh's post game isn't good makes me think you mustn't have watched the playoffs last year especially against cleveland. I'm tired of us always relying solely on two players to carry us everynight. We need to stop treating Josh and Al as kids. If we expect them to show up against top tier players and expect this team to take it to the next level, you have to let these guys have more responsibilities than just grabbing boards and playing defense. JJ was allowed to become the player he is today because Woody put the onus on him to lead the team. Al and josh have such untapped potentials that I don't know if they can become more potent under Woody's "wing it as you go" offense. If they can continue to get consistent amount of touches on offense everynight even when they are off (like JJ does every game), we could have one of the best top 5 starting frontcourt minus marvin in the league.

Good teams will find a way to neutralize JJ and Craw in the playoffs. It is time the kids start learning to take that next step if we want to make it past the second round. Josh n Al hve to start making teams pay. INCREASE THEIR ROLE WOODY!

[Atlantaholic]

I'm pretty sure that under the right coach Horford would be a totally different player. He can shoot lights out for a big man, when he puts his mind to it he can drive past anyone guarding him and draw a foul , he is uber-athletic and does a fantastic job of finishing. I look at guys like Brooke Lopez and Chris Kaman averaging close to 20 points a night and I can't help but feel that Horford definitely has more skill than those two. Sure those guys have a slightly more refined post game, but Horford just has tons more natural ability.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I partially agree with you northcyde but saying Josh's post game isn't good makes me think you mustn't have watched the playoffs last year especially against cleveland. I'm tired of us always relying solely on two players to carry us everynight. We need to stop treating Josh and Al as kids. If we expect them to show up against top tier players and expect this team to take it to the next level, you have to let these guys have more responsibilities than just grabbing boards and playing defense. JJ was allowed to become the player he is today because Woody put the onus on him to lead the team. Al and josh have such untapped potentials that I don't know if they can become more potent under Woody's "wing it as you go" offense. If they can continue to get consistent amount of touches on offense everynight even when they are off (like JJ does every game), we could have one of the best top 5 starting frontcourt minus marvin in the league.

Good teams will find a way to neutralize JJ and Craw in the playoffs. It is time the kids start learning to take that next step if we want to make it past the second round. Josh n Al hve to start making teams pay. INCREASE THEIR ROLE WOODY!

I have no problem with giving them more responsibilities. But people need to understand who the scorers are, and who the complimentary players are. There are nights in which Horford and Smoove will have the advantage, and we're right in going to them. But the difference between JJ and those guys, is that JJ has the advantage almost EVERY night.

Josh Smith post game is dependent on him getting to the rim. If he can make a move that has him getting to the rim, his post game is good. If he has to settle for a baby hook or a tough shot, his post game is bad. He's better in the post than he ever has been, but that's not his strength as an offensive player. He's a "face the basket" type player. And I really like him in the "point forward" role, in which he's driving and trying to create for people off of his passes. Woody is giving him the freedom to do that lately, and it makes him a better player.

I just want these guys to play to their strengths as players. The same goes for Marvin. It was great that he developed his 3 point jumper a little last year, but I truly believe that as he tried to become a 3 point shooter, it took away from his midrange game. He used to be almost automatic with his 21 foot jumper. Now, that part of his game has completely left him. He's a horrible midrange shooter now, and not a very good 3 point shooter. Recently though, he's pretty much abandoned the 3 point shot, only attempting 6 threes this month. And for the first time this year, he's shooting close to 50% FG for a whole month.

So with Horford, I just want the guy doing what he does best . . shooting that 12 - 18 foot jumper. Him trying to back down a 7 footer who has 30 pounds on him, is a losing situation for him. But if he played to his strength, he'd be OK on most nights.

I simply don't want Horford and Smoove to do things that they're not really good at. Back to the basket post offense is one of those things.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

For the guy who gave me a -1, do you still disagree with me?

Look at what Al Horford did last night. He got the ball in the post and tried to be a back to the basket scorer vs Brendan Heywood. Horford is not a strong player doing this vs centers, so teams don't double team Al in the post. This entices Al to try to score on his man 1 on 1.

The result . . . . a 4 - 16 FG night for Horford.

The same thing that happened to Smoove against Golden St, happened to Horford last night. Smoove simply needs to keep driving to the hole by facing his man and take him off the dribble. And Horford needs to stick with the midrange jumper, especially bigger guys.

[exodus]

For the guy who gave me a -1, do you still disagree with me?

Look at what Al Horford did last night. He got the ball in the post and tried to be a back to the basket scorer vs Brendan Heywood. Horford is not a strong player doing this vs centers, so teams don't double team Al in the post. This entices Al to try to score on his man 1 on 1.

The result . . . . a 4 - 16 FG night for Horford.

The same thing that happened to Smoove against Golden St, happened to Horford last night. Smoove simply needs to keep driving to the hole by facing his man and take him off the dribble. And Horford needs to stick with the midrange jumper, especially bigger guys.

For me watching Horford play with his back to the basket against bigger players is no different than watching Smith shoot 3s. Sure he will make one once in awhile but that doesn't change the fact that it is dumb basketball.

Edited February 27, 2010 by exodus

[DJlaysitup]

Problem is we misdiagnose things after a loss. Our PG position is the weakest position on the team not our 4/5 matchup.

We need Teague to develop into an AVERAGE point guard. Then we'd be fine

I have to agree with your first point. I think most thought Craw could do enough minutes at PG to spell Bibby - but it doesn't look like we can go Craw/JJ at the guard spots against teams with quality PGs. The offense slows down even more and neither are great passers. As far as Teague's development for the rest of this year, I figure we can pretty much forget about that. Woody is shrinking the bench in order to get every win he can (the announcers even mentioned that on the broadcast last night). Let's not forget that Woody doesn't have a contract for even next year so why would he worry about developing a young guy at the possible expense of losses?

I'm certainly no big Woody fan but I do think ownership made a mistake by not either 1.) Extending Woody's contract or 2.) Canning him and moving on with another coach.

Lastly: I really wish we had picked up a solid vet PG prior to the trade deadline, if we had we probably win last nights game fairly comfortably...but that's water under the bridge now...we have what we have.

[Joker]

When Smoove and Horford have it going, it's because they're being fed the ball in ideal scoring position. Both of these guys see around 65% of their made baskets coming via assists, which is an indication that you can't simply throw the ball to them in the post, and expect them to score. A lot of times, they're feeding each other the ball. But as far as creating their own offense, they're not that good of scorers yet in their careers.

Josh Smith shoots so terrible from outside of 5 feet, that he should hardly ever be trusted to give you ISO post offense, unless he has a DISTINCT advantage over his man. Josh is best when he gets the ball 12 - 15 feet from the basket, and he can face his man up and take him off the dribble. When his back is to the basket, his game is significantly diminished. And we're not going to talk about his jumpshooting. That's been discussed ad nauseum.

The same really goes with Horford, although he is a better back to the basket post scorer than Smoove. He sees more of his made shots assisted than Smoove does, because he can knock down the 12 - 16 foot face up jumper. He's a catch and shoot guy, not a post guy. 6 of Horford's 7 made shots in the 3rd quarter, came via assists. 5 of them coming from Smoove. For the game, 7 of Horford's 10 FG makes came via assists.

In one way, this is the main case made by people for more ball movement in the offense. On the other hand, it simply proves that these guys can't create their own offense in the post, like other good post scorers do. This means that this team will continue to battle bouts of horrible offense, if our defense isn't creating offense ( like it was in the 3rd quarter ) . . or if our shooters go cold. They simply can't be trusted to be go-to scorers for a chunk in a game.

Agreed but with JJ and Craw, that isn't likely to happen. Horford has the same skill-set as Karl Malone offensively, not as talented of a scorer but is better on his screens. Smith has a good post game, he does not have any good advanced post moves but is amazingly athletic. We stopped feeding our post when we got better as a team, for the better or worst. I think Horford hurts himself guarding Centers and even being defended by Centers. Smoove hurts himself when he thinks too much. Both are bonafide options. The Hawks have too many options and only one ball.

[Joker]

For me watching Horford play with his back to the basket against bigger players is no different than watching Smith shoot 3s. Sure he will make one once in awhile but that doesn't change the fact that it is dumb basketball.

I disagree, he's poor v. bigger players who play good to great defense. If your Brook Lopez, Horford will eat him alive. Haywood was the biggest addition to the Mavs, totally changed their team profile.

[Joker]

I have to agree with your first point. I think most thought Craw could do enough minutes at PG to spell Bibby - but it doesn't look like we can go Craw/JJ at the guard spots against teams with quality PGs. The offense slows down even more and neither are great passers. As far as Teague's development for the rest of this year, I figure we can pretty much forget about that. Woody is shrinking the bench in order to get every win he can (the announcers even mentioned that on the broadcast last night). Let's not forget that Woody doesn't have a contract for even next year so why would he worry about developing a young guy at the possible expense of losses?

I'm certainly no big Woody fan but I do think ownership made a mistake by not either 1.) Extending Woody's contract or 2.) Canning him and moving on with another coach.

Lastly: I really wish we had picked up a solid vet PG prior to the trade deadline, if we had we probably win last nights game fairly comfortably...but that's water under the bridge now...we have what we have.

I think Teague lacks understanding of the position. Once he understands the position, he will be good. Remember Rondo first season with Boston.

[DJlaysitup]

I think Teague lacks understanding of the position. Once he understands the position, he will be good. Remember Rondo first season with Boston.

I think that very well could be true. It took Chauncey awhile. Still, that doesn't help us with our current situation.

[Kimsey]

Josh Smith shoots so terrible from outside of 5 feet, that he should hardly ever be trusted to give you ISO post offense,

This is not true. In the past his ISO were painful to watch but he's receiving double teams second only to Joe. At that point he throws a pinpoint skip pass to either Bibby or Jamal for an open three. Even when he does get stoned walled he passes out instead of forcing his shot most of the time. He occasionally takes an ill advised jumpshot 1-6 feet from the arc and that is in the 17-23 foot area, 15 feet and in he's fine.

Basically he needs to take the same jump shots Al takes(13-15 feet) if he's open.

[exodus]

I disagree, he's poor v. bigger players who play good to great defense. If your Brook Lopez, Horford will eat him alive. Haywood was the biggest addition to the Mavs, totally changed their team profile.

Horford has only averaged 12 ppg against NJ this season. He only averaged 9 ppg against them last season.He isn't going to get anywhere trying to back down Lopez.

[Joker]

Horford has only averaged 12 ppg against NJ this season. He only averaged 9 ppg against them last season.He isn't going to get anywhere trying to back down Lopez.

He's the #4 option on our team, that would mean more to me if he was Bosh or Amare. I seen him v. Brook this season, he had his way on offense when he got the ball. Last season, Lopez owned Horford as did VC to Marvin and JJ.

Edited February 27, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[exodus]

He's the #4 option on our team, that would mean more to me if he was Bosh or Amare. I seen him v. Brook this season, he had his way on offense when he got the ball. Last season, Lopez owned Horford as did VC to Marvin and JJ.

You don't have your way with anyone when you score only 12 ppg. Horford has had many games this season over 20 pts but he hasn't done crap against Lopez.

[Joker]

You don't have your way with anyone when you score only 12 ppg. Horford has had many games this season over 20 pts but he hasn't done crap against Lopez.

I really do not see the relation, New Jersey is a really bad team. There are a bunch of weak spots to attack more often than even Lopez's weak defense. I disagree with your assessment.

[exodus]

I really do not see the relation, New Jersey is a really bad team. There are a bunch of weak spots to attack more often than even Lopez's weak defense. I disagree with your assessment.

If you agreed with me then i would think i might be wrong, given your history. What's Brandon Wright up to lately?

[Joker]

If you agreed with me then i would think i might be wrong, given your history. What's Brandon Wright up to lately?

He's doing what is expected of players who end up in the wrong system for the wrong coaches for their skillset. Besides you should read the fine print, it's says that he has the potential but NEEDS to be in a system that matches his skillset. Somehow you always forget that part. The part that I have a great history of being accurate as well. I guess Jerry West is a retard for being wrong on his draft miscues as a Laker, when he did draft Kobe and traded for Shaq, but drafted Samaki Walker and other countless bums. I said I like Horford and he has great potential. What about Durant, I loved him a lot too and said he will be a HOF when it's all said and done. What about Yi and Conley, I said they were not that good and guess what? You have always been intimidated by me so I could care less about your personal comments to me.