Woody Proving a Point to EVERYONE About this "Great Bench"

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Honestly, when you see what is currently going on right now, I'm glad Woody left those guys in. If they can't even play 5 friggin minutes as a unit, why are people even bytching about them playing?

And this is Utah's 2nd unit folks . . . not their starters . . and our bench looks like absolute garbage out there.

Yet, people want to go 10 - 12 deep?

LOL . . . please.

People will criticize Woody to death if we end up losing tonight. But I'm glad he left those guys in to suffer like that. We can afford to di ish like that with our record. Now, let's see if the starters will simply roll over and die, or if they'll respond to the adversity.

That bench is SORRRR-RRRRRY. Even Crawford isn't doing anything.

[TheTruth]

Yes northcyde, we get it. The bench has been horrible because Zaza has regressed, Mo doesn't give us anything, Joe Smith hasn't done much, and Teague looks lost out there in the 3.7 minutes he gets. We REALLY need to address the bench this offseason.

[Dexmethylphenidate]

Someone need to develop Woody a sub pattern where all 4 or 5 bench players won't play at the same time. Most teams will have at least 2-3 starters out there with the bench players.

[mrhonline]

Someone need to develop Woody a sub pattern where all 4 or 5 bench players won't play at the same time. Most teams will have at least 2-3 starters out there with the bench players.

Agreed.

The point proven is that Woodson can be an idiot sometimes.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Every other coach will sub in their 2nd unit in the 2nd quarter, to get those guys playing time. So why is it a great problem when we do it?

Because those guys are sorry.

Not a problem when Boston plays their 4 or 5 together . . or Orlando . . . or Phoenix . . or Portland . . or just about any other good team in the league. I mean damn . . those guys can't play as a unit for 3 whole minutes? Isn't that the same squad that was so-called taking it to our starters in preseason practices?

At least Mo did make all of his shots this game. It's been a minute since we got a 4 FGM game out of him.

I know one thing though. Woody's goal should not be to try to go 10, even 9 deep every game. Three of those guys have to be able to play with each other on the floor. Those guys shouldn't need 3 or 4 starters on the floor with them, for some of them to be able to function.

[High5]

Someone need to develop Woody a sub pattern where all 4 or 5 bench players won't play at the same time. Most teams will have at least 2-3 starters out there with the bench players.

That's what I have been screaming all year. When it's just the bench out there it's a train wreck, but all of those guys can do some good things playing with starters.

[TheTruth]

Those guys shouldn't need 3 or 4 starters on the floor with them, for some of them to be able to function.

But they do because of what you said--they aren't very good. That's why it is so mind-boggling that Woody continues to throw all 5 guys on the floor together at the same time.

He needs to develop better sub patterns to keep that from happening. That way, his starters can get rest in spots, and our bench players will have some starters to play with.

[Plainview1981]

Honestly, when you see what is currently going on right now, I'm glad Woody left those guys in. If they can't even play 5 friggin minutes as a unit, why are people even bytching about them playing?

And this is Utah's 2nd unit folks . . . not their starters . . and our bench looks like absolute garbage out there.

Yet, people want to go 10 - 12 deep?

LOL . . . please.

People will criticize Woody to death if we end up losing tonight. But I'm glad he left those guys in to suffer like that. We can afford to di ish like that with our record. Now, let's see if the starters will simply roll over and die, or if they'll respond to the adversity.

That bench is SORRRR-RRRRRY. Even Crawford isn't doing anything.

It was funny listening to Bob going nuts about Mo at one point in the game... "Oh, if they win this game they can thank Mo Evans".

It's like... Damn, he finally made a couple of shots and were supposed to bow down?

Anyway, the starters got the team through tonight.

[Atlantaholic]

Woodson's Sub patterns have seemed totally random to me from day one. The bench sucks but if you give some of the guys a freaking roll that includes going out there with 3 or 4 of the starting five as opposed to 1 or 2, and stick to it you can at least hide their respective deficiencies long enough to save the starters some minutes. It's a little alarming that every single player outside of the big four has regressed noticeably form last year... A steady pattern of playing time and an actual role on both offense and defense would probably help guys like Mo, and Zaza out a lot.

[Diesel]

Every other coach will sub in their 2nd unit in the 2nd quarter, to get those guys playing time. So why is it a great problem when we do it?

Because those guys are sorry.

Not a problem when Boston plays their 4 or 5 together . . or Orlando . . . or Phoenix . . or Portland . . or just about any other good team in the league. I mean damn . . those guys can't play as a unit for 3 whole minutes? Isn't that the same squad that was so-called taking it to our starters in preseason practices?

At least Mo did make all of his shots this game. It's been a minute since we got a 4 FGM game out of him.

I know one thing though. Woody's goal should not be to try to go 10, even 9 deep every game. Three of those guys have to be able to play with each other on the floor. Those guys shouldn't need 3 or 4 starters on the floor with them, for some of them to be able to function.

Does that really make sense to you?

You take 5 guys who rarely play and you put them on the floor together.... Do you think that makes sense?

Most of Boston's bench are veterans or guys who have had to play the starting role for that team. Orlando doesn't do mass subs as you say. Neither does Phoenix. I don't think any other coach in the NBA would put his whole second string in at one time, unless he has a veteran team. However, somehow, you argue for this? Does that really makes sense to you?

[NineOhTheRino]

It was funny listening to Bob going nuts about Mo at one point in the game... "Oh, if they win this game they can thank Mo Evans".

It's like... Damn, he finally made a couple of shots and were supposed to bow down?

Anyway, the starters got the team through tonight.

I was thinking the same thing. In fact I yelled "Bout' damn time he did something."

[coachx]

Woodson's Sub patterns have seemed totally random to me from day one.

Attribute last night to the fact we had back to back road games. Most coaches play their benches a little more on the 2nd of back to back road games. When Crawford's offense is on, its a non issue to play the bench all at once for 4 minutes or so.

Here is the main problem I see with our bench. Neither Joe Smith nor ZaZa can defend the rim or the paint well at all and Teague continues to make rookie mistakes.

Mo Evans is a decent bench wing.............I'm not sure why he warrants so much hate on here.

I would love to draft a guy like Vanardo (Miss St.) who can defend the rim for the 2nd unit. Truth be told I'd rather have kept Solo since Joe Smith has been a dissapointment. There are also a lot of wings that will be available to us as well.

Edited February 23, 2010 by coachx

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Does that really make sense to you?

You take 5 guys who rarely play and you put them on the floor together.... Do you think that makes sense?

Most of Boston's bench are veterans or guys who have had to play the starting role for that team. Orlando doesn't do mass subs as you say. Neither does Phoenix. I don't think any other coach in the NBA would put his whole second string in at one time, unless he has a veteran team. However, somehow, you argue for this? Does that really makes sense to you?

Truth be told Diesel . . . a lot of the current playoff teams have 8 to 9 man rotations. They're not trying to play 10 and 11 guys and get them decent playing time, like a lot of people want to see around here. And yes, those other teams see their entire bench rotation play together for short stretches ( whether they go 8 or 9 deep or 10 deep ). I don't know what NBA some of you guys watch. All I have to do, is go through the Sunday games.

Boston vs Denver ( Boston played their 4 subs together in the 2nd and 4th quarters. Denver played their 3 subs together during those same times )

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20100221&game=BOSDEN

Orlando vs Cleveland ( Magic went 9 deep, and played their 4 bench players together at the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 4th . . Cleveland did the same thing )

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20100221&game=CLEORL

Houston vs New Orleans ( Your boy Rick Adleman does it all the time with his entire 5 bench players . . even with the lineup changes Houston had, he still does it )

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20100221&game=HOUNOR

Phoenix vs Sacramento ( Phoenix did it in the 2nd quarter, even before they took control of the game in the 2nd half )

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20100221&game=SACPHO

Detroit vs San Antonio ( Detroit did it with their 4 bench players . . . San Antonio only goes 8 deep, and their 3 play together )

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20100221&game=SASDET

Utah vs Portland ( both Utah and Portland went 9 deep, and they played their 4 together )

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20100221&game=UTHPOR

Oklahoma City vs Minnesota ( OKC did it with their 4 main bench players )

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20100221&game=OKCMIN

Woody simply needs to find 2 other guys outside of Crawford, that he can roll with,shorten the rotation . . .and forget about the rest of the bench. That won't sit well with people because most feel that we're "so deep" or should try to go 10 deep.

See Diesel . . . if people want to go 9 - 10 deep, those guys have to play together for short stretches all at once, because our two best 5 man lineups are:

- the starting lineup

- and the lineup in which Crawford replaces Marvin in the starting group.

When you're trying to work 9, 10, 11 guys into the lineup, but you try to protect them by playing them with 3 starters, you're reducing the amount of minutes that your two best lineups are on the floor.

It's possible to work those guys in the game with the starters. But if you're going to get the max out of people, the rotation needs to be shortened and Woody should just go with 8 guys who he can count on. That way, those bench guys can get a steady 10 - 15 or even 20 minutes a game.

And Woody did just that in the 2nd half. Instead of trying to work in the 5 bench guys, he simply went with 3 ( Crawford, Joe Smith, Mo Evans ). And he played them together too, for a short stretch.

One more thing . . . the Teague - Crawford - Evans - Joe Smith - Zaza lineup is our 4th most used lineup.

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910ATL2.HTM

I agree that they should never be on the court at the same time. The rotation simply needs to be shortened, and go with 3 bench players that are going to help you the most, with the 9th and 10th man getting spot minutes at best.

Edited February 23, 2010 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Attribute last night to the fact we had back to back road games. Most coaches play their benches a little more on the 2nd of back to back road games. When Crawford's offense is on, its a non issue to play the bench all at once for 4 minutes or so.

Here is the main problem I see with our bench. Neither Joe Smith nor ZaZa can defend the rim or the paint well at all and Teague continues to make rookie mistakes.

Mo Evans is a decent bench wing.............I'm not sure why he warrants so much hate on here.

I would love to draft a guy like Vanardo (Miss St.) who can defend the rim for the 2nd unit. Truth be told I'd rather have kept Solo since Joe Smith has been a dissapointment. There are also a lot of wings that will be available to us as well.

Bingo.

That 2nd unit has way too many defensive lapses, that are compounded when Crawford doesn't score a little. Solo was a fouling machine, but at least he was somewhat active on the defensive end, when it came to deterring shots.

[JackB1]

I would love to draft a guy like Vanardo (Miss St.) who can defend the rim for the 2nd unit. Truth be told I'd rather have kept Solo since Joe Smith has been a dissapointment. There are also a lot of wings that will be available to us as well.

Totally agree. Joe Smith has provided nothing over Solo and Solo was still improving and 15 years younger. He is too thin and short to defend the rim and Zaza is too vertically challenged, but is a decent backup center to Al.

Joe Smith hits an occasional 20 ft jumper, but we have 12 other guys that can do that as well. We still have no answer for teams that will take it to us and drive the basketball. Solo had the length to defend the rim, That was a

huge mistake not holding onto him. When the 1st unit comes out of the game, we have zero shot blockers or paint defenders in the game. That will really hurt us in the playoffs.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

SMH @ Phoenix never does it. Heck, they did it against US last Friday night. Played their 4 main bench guys + either Grant Hill ( 1st half ) or Jason Richardson ( 2nd half ).

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20100219&game=ATLPHO

The baffling thing about this bench, is that Crawford is essentially a starter. He's not your average bench player. But the rest of those guys are inconsistent as hell. IAnd only one of them ( two if you count West ) can claim that it's because of youth and inexperience. The rest of those cats are veteran players. They simply play like crap on most nights.

[AHF]

No playoff team plays their non-top 6 players less than we do. I am unaware of any team that does it less than we do but haven't looked at non-comparable teams.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

No playoff team plays their non-top 6 players less than we do. I am unaware of any team that does it less than we do but haven't looked at non-comparable teams.

That wouldn't suprise me one bit. It's an obvious reason for that though. We saw that reason last night.

[spotatl]

The Hawks don't have 7 guys who deserve consistent minutes. Zaza and Evans have been pretty bad this season. Teague isn't close to being ready to help a playoff team. Collins might be the worst player in basketball.

I don't think its really fair to compare how much the Hawks use their bench to how much teams that pay the luxury tax use their bench. Those teams have the ability to sign more talent.

Edited February 23, 2010 by spotatl

[AHF]

There were a lot of posts about other playoff teams having similar rotations to Atlanta and I am just pointing out that I think there isn't a playoff team out there with a rotation like Atlanta's. Everyone knows I think Teague has been horribly misused this season, but I am not arguing that our bench is stellar this season by any means. I do agree with those who criticize the mass substitution part of our substitutions (other than in blowouts), but we are just a different team than the others in terms of our rotation as of this point in the season.

Zaza has really let me down the most this season so far. Someone like Evans gives you enough defensively that I think they are fine playing on the floor with a primarily starting lineup but struggles when he is on the floor with a lineup like Teague, Crawford, Evans, Joe Smith, and Zaza/RandMo.

In any event, we should be aggressively pursuing some people over the next few weeks with our MLE since we clearly have room for more bench players in our rotation.