Woody Bashing?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

This year's Knicks team is on pace to win as many games as the 2006-07 Hawks team with Joe Johnson, #2 Marvin Williams, #17 Josh Smith, #6 Josh Childress, #5 Shelden Williams, and a Zaza who was giving 16/9 per 36 and a 17 PER.

Hmmmmmmm . . . . let' see.

Missed games by the 06 - 07 Hawks:

Speedy - 40

Chill - 27

Lue - 26

Johnson - 25

Marvin - 18

Smoove - 8

Zaza - 8

( LOL . . . I know it was a "long time ago", but this shouldn't have faded from your memory bank.

Hmmmmmmmmm #2

Record of 06 - 07 Hawks going into Feb 23, 2007: 21 - 33

Record of 09 - 10 Knicks going into Feb 23, 2010: 19 - 36

Hmmmmmmmmm #3

Final Jeapordy question:

"His NBA teams over a 4 year span averaged an offensive ranking of 1.5 out of 30 teams, when Steve Nash ran his offense. When Nash didn't run his offense, his teams over a 3.5 year stretch averaged an offensive ranking of 17.25 out of 30.

Name him.

[benhillboy]

Mike D'Antoni offensive guru? Check.

Great bridge between the international and stateside game? True.

NBA Head Coach? Nah.

[AHF]

Hmmmmmmm . . . . let' see.

Missed games by the 06 - 07 Hawks:

Speedy - 40

Chill - 27

Lue - 26

Johnson - 25

Marvin - 18

Smoove - 8

Zaza - 8

( LOL . . . I know it was a "long time ago", but this shouldn't have faded from your memory bank.

Hmmmmmmmmm #2

Record of 06 - 07 Hawks going into Feb 23, 2007: 21 - 33

Record of 09 - 10 Knicks going into Feb 23, 2010: 19 - 36

Hmmmmmmmmm #3

Final Jeapordy question:

"His NBA teams over a 4 year span averaged an offensive ranking of 1.5 out of 30 teams, when Steve Nash ran his offense. When Nash didn't run his offense, his teams over a 3.5 year stretch averaged an offensive ranking of 17.25 out of 30.

Name him.

LOL The 2nd best player on the Knicks this season is Al Harrington - the same Al Harrington that was 8th and 4th in PER for Woody coached teams that won 13 and 26 games.

So I'm saying I'll take some missed games by guys like Josh Smith playing 74 games or Josh Childress playing 55 games over Wilson Chandler or Jared Jeffries being available all the time.

If his goal was to win games (and why wouldn't you try to get Josh to focus on better shot selection if it wasn't) Woody underachieved his first four years with this team. I am happy he finally has this team winning a reasonable number of games, though!

[High5]

Woodson gets bashed because he's not a good coach. People always want to defend him with the fact that the team gets better each year, but that's the obvious outcome when you let a squad of lottery picks play together for years and the starting point is 13 wins.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL The 2nd best player on the Knicks this season is Al Harrington - the same Al Harrington that was 8th and 4th in PER for Woody coached teams that won 13 and 26 games.

So I'm saying I'll take some missed games by guys like Josh Smith playing 74 games or Josh Childress playing 55 games over Wilson Chandler or Jared Jeffries being available all the time.

If his goal was to win games (and why wouldn't you try to get Josh to focus on better shot selection if it wasn't) Woody underachieved his first four years with this team. I am happy he finally has this team winning a reasonable number of games, though!

But if the 06 - 07 Hawks had been as healthy as the 09 - 10 Knicks, wouldn't the Hawks have a much better record than the Knicks?

I mean, the running joke that season was that our projected starting 5 ( Speedy - JJ - Marvin - Smoove - Zaza ) had played like a total of 5 games with each other all season. We were missing one and two starters all year that season. Then, when it looked like we were finally going to get everyone healthy in March to make a remote run at that 8th spot . . . JJ goes down, and management decides to basically deactivate him.

To say that team underachieved, when they were so young and so decimated by injuries, is unfair to that group.

I mean, good lord . . . 13 different people started a game for the Hawks that year. Lorenzen Wright started 31 games. Royal Ivey started 18 games. LOL . . even Cedric Bozeman started 5 games.

That squad easily wins 35 - 40 games if relatively healthy. That wasn't a 30 win team.

Woody gets a complete pass from me in Year 1. That was a D-League team led by Antoine the Gunner.

Year 2 was JJ's first year, and the team doubled their win total, but that team was garbage also

Year 3 was the 06 - 07 season, which was killed by injuries.

Year 4, was the 07 - 08 season. That's the season in which you can say that they underachieved . . but was saved by the Bibby trade and made the playoffs.

Year 5 we make the big jump and post our first winning record in a decade, and win a 1st round series

And now we're in Year 6.

D'Antoni is in Year 2 up in New York. They're worse offensively this year, than they were last year. Maybe T-Mac makes them a little better this year . . . or maybe they tank the season in a few weeks and try to luck up and get John Wall. Like Woody, he's going to need some players, before he sees things turn around up there. His coaching alone isn't going to turn those guys around. He's not all that hot of a coach anyway, if you listen to Suns fans.

Edited February 24, 2010 by northcyde

[NineOhTheRino]

D'Antoni is in Year 2 up in New York. They're worse offensively this year, than they were last year. Maybe T-Mac makes them a little better this year . . . or maybe they tank the season in a few weeks and try to luck up and get John Wall. Like Woody, he's going to need some players, before he sees things turn around up there. His coaching alone isn't going to turn those guys around. He's not all that hot of a coach anyway, if you listen to Suns fans.

Don't think the idiots have a 1st round pick. I think the pick goes to the Utah Jazz.

In 2004 Isaiah Thomas traded Howard Eisley, Antonio McDyess, Charlie Ward, a 2004 draft pick, and a future protected draft pick to the Suns for Anfernee (Penny) Hardaway and Stephon Marbury

A month later, the Jazz traded Keon Clark and Ben Handgloten to the Phoenix Suns for Tom Gugliotta and that Knicks first-round pick. Here are the Protections for that pick: Protected 2006=top 25, 2007=top 24, 2008=top 23, 2009=top 22. Unprotected in 2010.

Edited February 24, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[GST]

You don't have to have a true pass-first PG to win, but if you don't have one, you need strong team discipline on offense to compensate. An example of this would be the Spurs, Lakers, and the Jordan-era Bulls. We don't have a great pass-first PG, and we don't have offensive discipline. I agree with Antmillennium and Wurider about our prospects for the playoffs.

[AHF]

But if the 06 - 07 Hawks had been as healthy as the 09 - 10 Knicks, wouldn't the Hawks have a much better record than the Knicks?

If they didn't have a massively better record, then Woody should have been fired immediately because the 06 -07 Hawks were much more talented. Even with the injuries, they were more talented.

[AHF]

. or maybe they tank the season in a few weeks and try to luck up and get John Wall. Like Woody, he's going to need some players, before he sees things turn around up there. His coaching alone isn't going to turn those guys around. He's not all that hot of a coach anyway, if you listen to Suns fans.

NY is so mismanaged their first round pick goes to Utah this season so even if they got the #1 pick, it goes to the Jazz.

I am just saying I think Woody had better talent in 2006-07 even considering injuries than this year's woeful and squeezably soft Knicks squad.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Don't think the idiots have a 1st round pick. I think the pick goes to the Utah Jazz.

Damn . . that's right!! LOL @ Isaiah . . . screwing the Knicks 6 years into the future. My God . . Imagine if Utah lucked out and got Wall . . . or better yet Demarcus Cousins?

[NineOhTheRino]

Damn . . that's right!! LOL @ Isaiah . . . screwing the Knicks 6 years into the future. My God . . Imagine if Utah lucked out and got Wall . . . or better yet Demarcus Cousins?

The NY media is killing Isaiah on this but put yourself in Isaiah's shoes at the time. Zeke was thinking the the Knicks would be a good team by then so the 2010 #1 would amount to a virtual 2nd round pick. Who'd believe the the Knicks would still be sucking all these years later? Not me.

[macdaddy]

I give Woody credit. He's improved the team and done a good job. That doesn't mean he's a great coach. Great coaches don't last long with the excuse 'I told them what to do they just didn't do it'. If he gets us out of the second round then I'd consider bringing him back. Truth is i'm nervous about a 1st round exit.

Down 3 with 10 seconds left and the ball ends up in Josh Smith's hands at the 3 point line? You just drew up one really crappy play.

[Diesel]

Woodson gets bashed because he's not a good coach. People always want to defend him with the fact that the team gets better each year, but that's the obvious outcome when you let a squad of lottery picks play together for years and the starting point is 13 wins.

I'm not quick to say that Woody is no goody.

What I will say is that:

Woody is terrible at developing his bench mainly due to his substittutions.

Woody gets it in his mind that he needs a 6-7 man rotation and he can milk that for the season.. However, when seasons end comes, his starters are worn down. What woody needs to do is expand the rotation to 9-10. Get Teague, West, Smith, and Morris some freakin playing time. Don't put them in together, sprinkle them in. The second quarter is a good place for that. Let your closers close out games. 2nd and early 3rd, play your subs.

[Diesel]

The NY media is killing Isaiah on this but put yourself in Isaiah's shoes at the time. Zeke was thinking the the Knicks would be a good team by then so the 2010 #1 would amount to a virtual 2nd round pick. Who'd believe the the Knicks would still be sucking all these years later? Not me.

How can you diss the man that brought you David Lee, Nate Robinson, Jamal Crawford, and Al Harrington.

You can talk bad about his coaching, and he did make two bad signings of Jeffries, Curry, and James.. but let's look at some of his acquisitions:

Crawford

Zach Randolph

Channing Frye

Nate Robinson

David Lee

Nazr Muhammed

Deke

Tim Thomas

Stephon Marbury ?? Maybe bad.

Matt Barnes

Ranaldo Balkman ???

Trevor Ariza

Steve Francis

Wilson Chandler.

Chris Duhon

Danilo Gallinari

Now, he had lots of talent to come through those door in NY. A lot of times, he was questioned about the guys he brought in like Randolph, Ariza, Duhon, Gallinari.. but just look at them players now. Most are second shelf guys.

[spotatl]

The NY media is killing Isaiah on this but put yourself in Isaiah's shoes at the time. Zeke was thinking the the Knicks would be a good team by then so the 2010 #1 would amount to a virtual 2nd round pick. Who'd believe the the Knicks would still be sucking all these years later? Not me.

You know this was part of the Marbury trade right. Damn right I killed the Knicks at the time for that trade. It was a terrible deal for them at the time and there were lots of people who said so.

[AHF]

Isiah gave away a lot of fantastic players with his terrible, terrible trades. Remember, just for the privilege of grossly overpaying Marbury and Curry he gave up:

2004 #16 Pick traded for Marbury

Key Players Available: #17 Josh Smith, #18 JR Smith, #20 Jameer Nelson

2006 #2 Pick traded for Eddy Curry

Key Players Available: #6 Brandon Roy; #2 LeMarcus Aldridge; #8 Rudy Gay

2007 #9 Pick traded for Eddy Curry

Key Players Available: #9 Joakim Noah; #15 Rodney Stuckey; #12 Thaddeus Young

2010 first round pick now unprotected for Stephon Marbury - Currently projected at #5

Key Players Reasonable Likely to be Available: Derrick Favors, Demarcus Cousins, Al-Farouq Aminu, Cole Aldridge

Anyone think that owning Josh Smith, Brandon Roy, Joakim Noah and Demarcus Cousins would be nicer than two guys who are literally or essentially out of the league?

Isiah's lottery picks were no great thing, either. Channing Frye (over Andrew Bynum) and Michael Sweetney were no great thing for the Knicks.

Where he did excel and deserves credit is for nailing a lot of late first and early second round picks. He also got some decent talent like Zach Randolph but surrounded them in terrible situations proving his ability to assemble a winning team rather than a fantasy roster (Starbury, Franchise, etc.) was non-existant.

[Diesel]

Isiah gave away a lot of fantastic players with his terrible, terrible trades. Remember, just for the privilege of grossly overpaying Marbury and Curry he gave up:

2004 #16 Pick traded for Marbury

Key Players Available: #17 Josh Smith, #18 JR Smith, #20 Jameer Nelson

2006 #2 Pick traded for Eddy Curry

Key Players Available: #6 Brandon Roy; #2 LeMarcus Aldridge; #8 Rudy Gay

2007 #9 Pick traded for Eddy Curry

Key Players Available: #9 Joakim Noah; #15 Rodney Stuckey; #12 Thaddeus Young

2010 first round pick now unprotected for Stephon Marbury - Currently projected at #5

Key Players Reasonable Likely to be Available: Derrick Favors, Demarcus Cousins, Al-Farouq Aminu, Cole Aldridge

Anyone think that owning Josh Smith, Brandon Roy, Joakim Noah and Demarcus Cousins would be nicer than two guys who are literally or essentially out of the league?

Isiah's lottery picks were no great thing, either. Channing Frye (over Andrew Bynum) and Michael Sweetney were no great thing for the Knicks.

Where he did excel and deserves credit is for nailing a lot of late first and early second round picks. He also got some decent talent like Zach Randolph but surrounded them in terrible situations proving his ability to assemble a winning team rather than a fantasy roster (Starbury, Franchise, etc.) was non-existant.

His main problem was the Curry deal and the Marbury deal. You take those two deals away and he's GM of the year every year.

I wasn't jumping up and down over Sweetney... and Bynum came out of nowhere.... The Lakers just lucked up. Bynum was the last HSer picked that really never was a high profile HSer.. Not until the last minute. We all had problems with Bynum in that draft.

[AHF]

His main problem was the Curry deal and the Marbury deal. You take those two deals away and he's GM of the year every year.

I wasn't jumping up and down over Sweetney... and Bynum came out of nowhere.... The Lakers just lucked up. Bynum was the last HSer picked that really never was a high profile HSer.. Not until the last minute. We all had problems with Bynum in that draft.

Name his best lottery picks with the Knicks. The guy's teams were in the lottery every year with the Knicks and what did they do to build the team?

Moreover, his concept for the team was terrible. Just awful. He brought in me-first chuckers one after another - all soft on D and unwilling to play team-first ball. He was not even close to a GM of the year any year in NY. He left that team in the crapper through his terrible GMing in NY.

Edited February 25, 2010 by AHF

[exodus]

Signing Jerome James for the full MLE. :laughing5: Signing, or was it trading, for Francis. Isiah was horrible.

He actually believed a Curry/Randolph would work. He believed a Francis/Marbury backcourt would work. Seriously WTF

Edited February 25, 2010 by exodus

[Joker]

Woodson gets bashed because he's not a good coach. People always want to defend him with the fact that the team gets better each year, but that's the obvious outcome when you let a squad of lottery picks play together for years and the starting point is 13 wins.

I really don't know how you can say that. He's one of the best defensive coaches in the NBA. Offensively, he's solid, he just sucks at tactics from time to time but usually he never relies on them anyway.