The end of Joe Johnson as a 1st option.

[mrhonline]

Joe Johnson has played in 11 playoff road games as a first option.

In those 11 games, he's averaged:

37.4 minutes

47.3% TS

43% eFG

31% 3FG

3.7 ASTS

1.3 A:TO

0.7 STLS

0.0 BLKS

His team's record? 1-10.

So, for those who do NOT want to S&T Joe to a team where he can be the 2nd option (Dallas, Chicago, etc.), do you want to trade Josh Smith, Al Horford, or both to acquire that first option?

[dhawk]

Yea right, we saw the options we had the last 2:45 seconds when Joe fouled out, please. Joe has been the only one to show up in both road games against the Bucks (scoring 25 & 29 pts). This team has played scared on the road when the crowd starts roaring, if they don't show up to play it won't matter what option Joe or anybody else is, you can't win with 1 or 2 against 5 plus being outcoached.

[niremetal]

Joe Johnson has played in 11 playoff road games as a first option.

In those 11 games, he's averaged:

37.4 minutes

47.3% TS

43% eFG

31% 3FG

3.7 ASTS

1.3 A:TO

0.7 STLS

0.0 BLKS

His team's record? 1-10.

So, for those who do NOT want to S&T Joe to a team where he can be the 2nd option (Dallas, Chicago, etc.), do you want to trade Josh Smith, Al Horford, or both to acquire that first option?

Give him a year without Woody before giving up on him. After watching the debacle that was the last 2.5 minutes without JJ, I'm no longer willing to blame any player's offensive underperformance in the clutch on that player individually. I'd say the Hawks ran around like chickens with their heads cut off, but I don't want to offend poultry.

We have no spacing, no ball movement, and no off-ball movement. I saw everyone on the floor but Bibby get an ISO in the 4th quarter. Our players who go ISO are typically on their own, since no one really moves to get open, leaving the isolated player with the choice between forcing a shot and making a desperation pass at the last second (often to Josh for a 20 footer) if they can't break down their man and get an easy shot. In that type of ISO-heavy "system," there isn't a player in the league who wouldn't be inefficient (except, perhaps, LeBron).

Edited April 29, 2010 by niremetal

[mrhonline]

Give him a year without Woody before giving up on him.

Guys, that's NOT an option. You don't sign a guy to $100M, change coaches, watch him fail, and then hope to ditch his contract as it if were nothing. A failed first option with $85M left on his contract heading into a lockout is an unmovable contract.

The decision on JJ needs to be made independently of Woodson, but it needs to be made this summer.

Edited April 29, 2010 by mrhonline

[niremetal]

Guys, that's NOT an option. You don't sign a guy to $100M, change coaches, watch him fail, and then hope to ditch his contract as it if were nothing. A failed first option with $85M left on his contract heading into a lockout is an unmovable contract.

The decision on JJ needs to be made independently of Woodson, but it needs to be made this summer.

Then keep him. Because otherwise, we are a lottery team. Don't know if you noticed, but teams intent on improving don't let perennial All-Stars in their prime walk. And considering the number of teams that have the cap space to sign him outright this summer, the odds of us getting anything of any substance in return for him are incredibly slim.

Your opinion on the wisdom of paying JJ is pretty clear. But come on. The Magic paid Rashard the max. Joe is better than Rashard. The Magic were able to do that for 2 years without cracking luxury tax territory, and so can we. Re-signing JJ doesn't doom us to paying the tax in order to compete, and you're knowledgable enough about the cap that you'd be disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Edited April 29, 2010 by niremetal

[AHF]

It does need to be made this summer and if JJ fails he would be unmovable for a few years - except for someone else's albatross ala Memphis taking on Zach Randolph. I still feel like the greater risk is blowing up our progress by letting JJ go or for dealing him for non-impact compensation in a S&T.

This decision depends in large part on the willingness of the ASG to pay for the team as well. If they are willing to pay JJ the max, pay Horford, and go into the luxury tax zone then it is an easy decision for me. If they are effectively choosing between JJ and Horford because they won't pay both, then it is a much harder line.

I am hoping the ASG steps up, sells the Thrashers for $$, and continues to invest in and improve this core.

[mrhonline]

Then keep him. Because otherwise, we are a lottery team. Don't know if you noticed, but teams intent on improving don't let perennial All-Stars in their prime walk.

Perennial first/second round exits aren't better than being in the lottery.

So, Horford or Smith then?

[frankthetank966]

Get rid of JJ, sign D-Wade. Rumors have it that he wants to leave miami if they are eliminated.

[mrhonline]

Get rid of JJ, sign D-Wade. Rumors have it that he wants to leave miami if they are eliminated.

Not an option - don't have the cap space.

For those who would trade Smith or Horford, Amare or Bosh would look to be your options. A JJ/Bosh -or- JJ/Amare team might have some chance to get to the EC finals, but it would take two max contracts and moving at least Josh Smith or Al Horford to pull it off.

[AHF]

Get rid of JJ, sign D-Wade. Rumors have it that he wants to leave miami if they are eliminated.

We don't have cap room to sign any FA above the MLE let alone someone like Wade. Plus if he doesn't like Miami, what would he possibly like about Atlanta?

[niremetal]

Perennial first/second round exits aren't better than being in the lottery.

So, Horford or Smith then?

Replace Woody as coach, and we aren't a first/second round exit team. We have 4 All-Stars for pete's sake. That's my view.

[coachx]

Get rid of JJ, sign D-Wade. Rumors have it that he wants to leave miami if they are eliminated.

LOL......let me quote Jeff Foxworthy..............."Heres your sign !"

[mrhonline]

Replace Woody as coach, and we aren't a first/second round exit team. We have 4 All-Stars for pete's sake. That's my view.

Woodson or not, the Hawks still have major issues defending against quick guards and elite centers, and the lack of a real 1st option on offense would then be a permanent problem with a re-signed Joe Johnson. Sund would not have the money or the assets to fix those problems.

I fail to see how "status quo minus Woodson" would ever be enough to defeat the Magic or the Cavs (assuming LeBron re-signs). There will likely be other teams skyrocketing up the playoff chain this offseason, too.

[niremetal]

Woodson or not, the Hawks still have major issues defending against quick guards and elite centers, and the lack of a real 1st option on offense would then be a permanent problem with a re-signed Joe Johnson. Sund would not have the money or the assets to fix those problems.

I fail to see how "status quo minus Woodson" would ever be enough to defeat the Magic or the Cavs (assuming LeBron re-signs). There will likely be other teams skyrocketing up the playoff chain this offseason, too.

I think with a new coach, we could very well get to the ECF or Finals with the current roster. I think we could have JJ score the same ppg on fewer shots by giving him more catch-and-shoot, pick-and-roll, and off-screen touches (according to synergy, he's more efficient on such plays than on ISOs). I think Horford could average 16-18ppg and along with Jamal give us three legit scoring threats night-in-and-night-out. We could sign a perimeter defensive specialist to a really cheap contract in order to cover quick opposing PGs, or (better yet) hire a coach who will work to develop Teague into one.

I don't see anyone on the Magic who is a "real" 1st option on offense; Dwight ain't there yet. Neither was there one on the '08 Celtics - I'd take JJ over any of those guys. To an even greater extent, the same was true of the recent Jazz and Pistons teams. My point: There are many, many ways to skin a cat. I think we have a roster that from 1-6 (and maybe even 1-8) is as talented and well-balanced as any in the league. We disagree on the strength of our roster if you don't think that 4 All-Star caliber players and 4 good rotation players couldn't be molded into a contender with just a minor tweak or two.

Edited April 29, 2010 by niremetal

[mrhonline]

I think with a new coach, we could very well get to the ECF or Finals with the current roster.

Based on what evidence? When has this group of guys EVER proven they can successfully beat elite teams on the road?

Talent does not equal wins. You have to have the right blend of talent. The Hawks do not have that. Paying JJ $100M isn't changing that; roster changes MUST be made.

[niremetal]

Based on what evidence? When has this group of guys EVER proven they can successfully beat elite teams on the road?

Talent does not equal wins. You have to have the right blend of talent. The Hawks do not have that. Paying JJ $100M isn't changing that; roster changes MUST be made.

Are you kidding me? EVERY team has to do things they never did before in order to contend. That's inherent in the nature of going from "Playoff team" to "contending team." You're demanding evidence for a prediction of what could happen in the future after a major change occurs?? I didn't have evidence that the Magic had a shot at making the Finals last year either. They certainly had not shown that they could beat those Cavs or Celtics in a 7-game series without home-court advantage. I felt they could, though. And they did. NBC had no evidence that Cheers could be a successful show after it finished dead last in the ratings in its first season. But they stuck with it and it did.

The nature of predicting future events is that you believe something will change, and that that change will be sufficient to bring about the predicted result. My prediction is that with a new coach (a change), the Hawks will play more consistently and won't break down into ISO-ball or razzle-dazzle when games get tight. I predict that we'll make better use of the talent we have, which I believe would prove to be the right blend of talent to contend given said better coach.

My evidence consists of my observations of what this team is capable of. I guess you don't count beating Boston and Dallas on the road as beating elite teams this year (or Orlando last year), but that's not even the point. I'm making a prediction and stating an opinion. I'm not pretending that I know for certainty that it will come true. I'm stating my opinion that I think it would. I really don't understand why that's so offensive to you.

Edited April 29, 2010 by niremetal

[mrhonline]

Are you kidding me? EVERY team has to do things they never did before in order to contend.

And they do that based on evidence of prior success.

The sample size for the Hawks is three years long now. You can't blame EVERYTHING on Woodson. Some of that blame has to fall on the individual players and the overall roster structure.

[tbhawksfan]

I'm with MrH; but I've already been there for obout a year and a half. JJ is the guy to move, please take Bibby with him. S&T is the only way to go. If we bring in a nice sized C with the move, Zaza becomes tradeable too. Smoove can play Power SF for a few minutes a game, but there are enough minutes at PF/C for Smoove, Horf and C to get about 30-34 minutes a piece.

So JJ / Bibby / Zaza for ?

I'd take a nice PG and starter quality C any day. Bring back Chil, draft a C and a wing.

Please find a decent replacement for Woodson. Someone that can light a fire under them and teach them a system or two.

[niremetal]

And they do that based on evidence of prior success.

The sample size for the Hawks is three years long now. You can't blame EVERYTHING on Woodson. Some of that blame has to fall on the individual players and the overall roster structure.

You're being willfully blind if you don't think there is considerable evidence of prior success. We are the #3 seed, just won 53 games, and have a number of impressive victories over the past couple seasons against elite teams - including a few on the road. Consistency has been the biggest issue, in my eye, and that comes down to coaching. Do they need to do those things more consistently or in higher pressure situations in order to make it to the next level? Yes. But again - that's true of EVERY team looking to make the leap from playoff team to legit contender.

I'm not saying we can be a dynasty with the roster as presently constructed. I'm saying it could break through to the conference finals or Finals. Once you make that level, THEN you typically see teams spend more money because of the massive revenues that come from deep playoff runs. In other words, I think the Hawks can do the same thing that the Magic last year - make a couple tweaks, make a deep playoff run, and then use the increased budget that comes with those extra revenues to become a legit title contender.

Edited April 29, 2010 by niremetal

[Packfill]

Woodson or not, the Hawks still have major issues defending against quick guards and elite centers, and the lack of a real 1st option on offense would then be a permanent problem with a re-signed Joe Johnson. Sund would not have the money or the assets to fix those problems.

I fail to see how "status quo minus Woodson" would ever be enough to defeat the Magic or the Cavs (assuming LeBron re-signs). There will likely be other teams skyrocketing up the playoff chain this offseason, too.

The problem with getting rid of JJ is that they are not going to get a number 1 scoring option back in return. The team is what it is, which is unfortunately something less than a championship contender. This is the legacy of Billy Knight's failed drafts.