No Low Post ...............

[Vol4ever]

offense no wining in the playoffs. If you live by the jumper, you die by the jumper, and this is an age old truth. The Hawks have NO low post player on the roster and the playoffs expose that everytime - look at M'Kee this year and Boston last year.

Getting necessary parts is what the offseason is for. Crawford was a great pickup BUT we did not get a low post player so we will go down to the Magic.

[MVP23]

This team is flawed. We need a coach a point a center a true shooter and a go to guy. We dont have any one of those things i just listed. Instead we have wood head the slowest point in the league 6'9 al a few chuckers and joe freaking johnson. We need to rebuild.

Edited May 5, 2010 by MVP23

[Joker]

Horford is a great low post talent at PF, not v. Dwight or any true centers. Smith is a jack of all tricks but master of none player and neither are centers. We do need a PnR PG and a true center.

[niremetal]

Horford is a great low post talent at PF, not v. Dwight or any true centers. Smith is a jack of all tricks but master of none player and neither are centers. We do need a PnR PG and a true center.

I'd love to know what the definition of a "true center" is. Last I checked, we have an All-Star at center and the Celtics won a ring with Kendrick Perkins at center (and the Spurs with Fabricio Oberto, the Pistons with Ben Wallace, etc). I can count on one hand the number of guys in the league I'd rather have at center than Horford.

We don't match up well against Dwight Howard. Hate to break it to you, but no one does. Anybody we put at center to match up well against him will weaken us against a half-dozen other teams.

Orlando is a terrible match-up for us. This shouldn't be a shock. But it inevitably backfires when you decide to make major moves primarily because of matchup problems with 1 potential opponent with a dominant big man. If you doubt that, go ask the Sixers/Nets how trading for Deke worked out, or the Suns about trading for Shaq. If we do a deal that forces us to trade Smoove or Horford and/or move Smoove to SF, we'll suffer a lot more than we do against the 3-4 teams in the league whose size truly causes problems for us.

Edited May 5, 2010 by niremetal

[Sothron]

Orlando isn't unbeatable. Its not like they go 82-0 every year and then win the Finals every postseason. The Hawks can do what other teams do: attack the basket. There's maybe 2-4 guys total in the NBA that could score or at least get Howard in foul trouble in the low post. So I don't blame Horford too much on that. We need guys to attack the rim and have Horford pull Howard away from the basket by facing him up and hitting jumpshots or even better attacking the rim by going right at Howard.

The iso game, the all jumper game, that's not going to cut it. We make zero adjustments because our head coach is beyond incompetent. I don't blame the roster, I blame the coach.

[Joker]

I'd love to know what the definition of a "true center" is. Last I checked, we have an All-Star at center and the Celtics won a ring with Kendrick Perkins at center (and the Spurs with Fabricio Oberto, the Pistons with Ben Wallace, etc). I can count on one hand the number of guys in the league I'd rather have at center than Horford.

We don't match up well against Dwight Howard. Hate to break it to you, but no one does. Anybody we put at center to match up well against him will weaken us against a half-dozen other teams.

Orlando is a terrible match-up for us. This shouldn't be a shock. But it inevitably backfires when you decide to make major moves primarily because of matchup problems with 1 potential opponent with a dominant big man. If you doubt that, go ask the Sixers/Nets how trading for Deke worked out, or the Suns about trading for Shaq. If we do a deal that forces us to trade Smoove or Horford and/or move Smoove to SF, we'll suffer a lot more than we do against the 3-4 teams in the league whose size truly causes problems for us.

I explained Big Ben in the Josh Smith thread. Perkins is a true center, at the very least a starting one. Oberto is not starting material but he's playing beside TD who one of the greatest ever this league has had. I rather have Horford at PF which is his only position. He can play center v. teams who aren't playoff ready. Most playoffs teams have a true center. Yao Ming matches up well v. Dwight but Dwight's elite, so it's understandable that hardly anyone matches up well v. him. To be truthful, how would Big Z harm us. We can start Horf and him, have Smith come off the bench playing 32-36 mins per. We are a much better team like that. The Sixers went to the finals with Deke, it worked out very well. The Nets are a quick moving PnR offense and Deke slowed them down. There are some PnR teams that play fast, NJ(Kidd) and Phx(Nash), and others play slow UTAH(Deron) and NO(CP3).

We know Orlando a terrible match-up for us, has been since Dwight gotten a lot bigger and much better especially on defense where when locked in, he's Bill Russell.

Orlando isn't unbeatable. Its not like they go 82-0 every year and then win the Finals every postseason. The Hawks can do what other teams do: attack the basket. There's maybe 2-4 guys total in the NBA that could score or at least get Howard in foul trouble in the low post. So I don't blame Horford too much on that. We need guys to attack the rim and have Horford pull Howard away from the basket by facing him up and hitting jumpshots or even better attacking the rim by going right at Howard.

The iso game, the all jumper game, that's not going to cut it. We make zero adjustments because our head coach is beyond incompetent. I don't blame the roster, I blame the coach.

Sothron, we do not have anyone who can attack the rim at a consistent level. Crawford is the best at it and Dwight gives him fits. Now we agree that Horford can make Dwight play out by hitting jumpers, that's true. That is our best hope because Dwight killing us. He's making an impact offensively but dominating defensively like he's shown during the regular season.

The Cavs will not beat Orlando unless the refs help. Bron is the only slasher and Jameer is too dominate on offense for the Cavs. This Magic team can be a dynasty simply because they have decent talent and manly Dwight. Boston will give them a run because of a true center(Perkins), a crafty center(Sheed), an defensive anchor(Garnett) and Rondo is too much for Jameer. That's the series that Orlando could lose. But the Hawks, Cavs, or anyone in the West will lose to the Magic.

Edited May 5, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[niremetal]

Perkins is a true center, at the very least a starting one.

Why is Perkins a true center while Horford is not?

Edited May 5, 2010 by niremetal

[Joker]

Why is Perkins a true center while Horford is not?

6'11 265, very strong lower and strong upper body. Horford is 6'9-10 240-245, strong upper body, average lower body. Not built to be a Center while Perkins is. Perkins has center skills and traits. Horford has very strong PF traits similar to Karl Malone. You wouldn't put Shawn Kemp, Boozer, or Malone at center?

Perkins is a defensive minded center while Horford is an all around PF.

Edited May 5, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[niremetal]

6'11 265, very strong lower and strong upper body. Horford is 6'9-10 240-245, strong upper body, average lower body.

BS. What is your source for Perkins being 6'11? Every source I've ever seen has him at 6'10. And it's not exactly a secret that like Horford, Perkins has to do "with shoes" just to be listed as 6'10. In games, it is clear that Garnett has a couple inches on him.

And if you think that there is a unified set of "center traits" in the modern NBA...well, you can just look at the teams that won titles in the last 20 years and tell that that's BS.

Edited May 5, 2010 by niremetal

[Sothron]

I explained Big Ben in the Josh Smith thread. Perkins is a true center, at the very least a starting one. Oberto is not starting material but he's playing beside TD who one of the greatest ever this league has had. I rather have Horford at PF which is his only position. He can play center v. teams who aren't playoff ready. Most playoffs teams have a true center. Yao Ming matches up well v. Dwight but Dwight's elite, so it's understandable that hardly anyone matches up well v. him. To be truthful, how would Big Z harm us. We can start Horf and him, have Smith come off the bench playing 32-36 mins per. We are a much better team like that. The Sixers went to the finals with Deke, it worked out very well. The Nets are a quick moving PnR offense and Deke slowed them down. There are some PnR teams that play fast, NJ(Kidd) and Phx(Nash), and others play slow UTAH(Deron) and NO(CP3).

We know Orlando a terrible match-up for us, has been since Dwight gotten a lot bigger and much better especially on defense where when locked in, he's Bill Russell.

Sothron, we do not have anyone who can attack the rim at a consistent level. Crawford is the best at it and Dwight gives him fits. Now we agree that Horford can make Dwight play out by hitting jumpers, that's true. That is our best hope because Dwight killing us. He's making an impact offensively but dominating defensively like he's shown during the regular season.

The Cavs will not beat Orlando unless the refs help. Bron is the only slasher and Jameer is too dominate on offense for the Cavs. This Magic team can be a dynasty simply because they have decent talent and manly Dwight. Boston will give them a run because of a true center(Perkins), a crafty center(Sheed), an defensive anchor(Garnett) and Rondo is too much for Jameer. That's the series that Orlando could lose. But the Hawks, Cavs, or anyone in the West will lose to the Magic.

I disagree completely that we only have one guy who can attack a rim. Every starter we have except for Bibby is above average or freakishly athletically. They can attack the rim, they just are not coached to do it. We've seen every one of those guys in Smoove, Marv, Joe and even Al at times take a guy off the dribble and attack the rim. We just need a coach with the cajones to get those guys to do it.

[coachx]

I disagree completely that we only have one guy who can attack a rim. Every starter we have except for Bibby is above average or freakishly athletically. They can attack the rim, they just are not coached to do it. We've seen every one of those guys in Smoove, Marv, Joe and even Al at times take a guy off the dribble and attack the rim. We just need a coach with the cajones to get those guys to do it.

We attacked the rim repeatedly last night. We were even out scoring the Magic in the paint after 1 quarter. Then our tired legs and the Magic's fresh legs caught up with us. Smith got his 3rd foul early in the 2nd quarter too and he is our best guy at attacking the rim. As we fatigued, and Smoove sat, the best interior defender in the NBA, Howard, affected our shots more and more.

Its one thing to preach attacking the rim. It was obviously preached based on how we started the game. The problem is interior defense is the strength of the Magic team due to Howard and Gortat.

Edited May 5, 2010 by coachx

[coachx]

I explained Big Ben in the Josh Smith thread.lose. But the Hawks, Cavs, or anyone in the West will lose to the Magic.

That was an awful thread too.

[CrawDaddy]

Orlando isn't unbeatable. Its not like they go 82-0 every year and then win the Finals every postseason. The Hawks can do what other teams do: attack the basket. There's maybe 2-4 guys total in the NBA that could score or at least get Howard in foul trouble in the low post. So I don't blame Horford too much on that. We need guys to attack the rim and have Horford pull Howard away from the basket by facing him up and hitting jumpshots or even better attacking the rim by going right at Howard.

The iso game, the all jumper game, that's not going to cut it. We make zero adjustments because our head coach is beyond incompetent. I don't blame the roster, I blame the coach.

Sothron has it right. It ain't the players folks. We have no offensive system, other than the pick and roll, which we use sparingly. Otherwise, it's all ISO and jump shots from the guy that has the ball when the shot clock is running down. A middle school coach could have watched the Charlotte series and saw that Larry Brown told his guys to go to the hole no matter what. Forget it if Dwight blocks your shot. If he fouls you 40% of the time, he goes out of the game, and everything opens up. Instead we took a thousand jump shots last night when everyone is cold. No roster is perfect, but we have a pretty damn good one. Fire Woody. Hell, fire Woody and hire a middle school coach - we'll be in much better shape.

Edited May 5, 2010 by CrawDaddy

[CrawDaddy]

We attacked the rim repeatedly last night FOR PART OF THE FIRST QUARTER.

Fixed this.

[Joker]

That was an awful thread too.

Your entitled to your opinion.

[Joker]

I disagree completely that we only have one guy who can attack a rim. Every starter we have except for Bibby is above average or freakishly athletically. They can attack the rim, they just are not coached to do it. We've seen every one of those guys in Smoove, Marv, Joe and even Al at times take a guy off the dribble and attack the rim. We just need a coach with the cajones to get those guys to do it.

Come on, I wasn't saying that no one can attack but I was referring to it as successfully attack. Sure, we know Smith, JJ, Craw, Horford, and Evans can slash to the basket but with Howard. The success rate for us making those shots aren't high. It's not like we are talking about Tony Parker, Bron, Wade or Rondo who are great at slashing and have a very high success rate. coachx was correct, we were attacking but we were having moderate to little success which is why Horford jumpshot is important for more than one reason.

[Sothron]

Come on, I wasn't saying that no one can attack but I was referring to it as successfully attack. Sure, we know Smith, JJ, Craw, Horford, and Evans can slash to the basket but with Howard. The success rate for us making those shots aren't high. It's not like we are talking about Tony Parker, Bron, Wade or Rondo who are great at slashing and have a very high success rate. coachx was correct, we were attacking but we were having moderate to little success which is why Horford jumpshot is important for more than one reason.

No, he was not right. We were doing it early in the first quarter then completely abandoned the concept for the rest of the game. This is the only team I've ever seen where when we get our bigs involved or we're attacking the rim or having crisp ball movement that our guards will literally stop doing what is working and go back to Jump Shot City.

This team could beat Orlando and any team in the NBA if we played smarter and had a real coach. It is downright Twilight Zone to see how befuddled our "head" coach is when running an offense. He has no answer to anything except Jump Shot City brought to you by the letters I S O.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Come on, I wasn't saying that no one can attack but I was referring to it as successfully attack. Sure, we know Smith, JJ, Craw, Horford, and Evans can slash to the basket but with Howard. The success rate for us making those shots aren't high. It's not like we are talking about Tony Parker, Bron, Wade or Rondo who are great at slashing and have a very high success rate. coachx was correct, we were attacking but we were having moderate to little success which is why Horford jumpshot is important for more than one reason.

At least you understand what the issue is.

It's one thing to say that we have to do something. It's completely different when you look at the personnel, and see if they can successfully do it. People want us to play like Charlotte, but we don't have the personnel that Charlotte has. And because Charlotte can't shoot the basketball at all from the outside, even they ended up getting swept.

Every miss the Hawks have, turns into an transition offense opportunity for the Magic . . . and they'll shoot threes out of transition. At some point, the Hawks are going to have to make jumpshots. JJ and Jamal are going to have to make some tough jumpers, while the other guys need to knock down the wide open looks.

- JJ's game is not about attacking the rim and drawing fouls

- Nor is Crawford's

- Nor is Horford's

- Smoove can do it, but the refs may or may not call a foul when he gets hit

- Marvin can do it, but people have always talked about how clumsy and how he gets his shot blocked

- Mo Evans can't do it

- Bibby sure in the hell can't do it

- Zaza likes to bang, and occasionally will draw a foul . . but he gets turnover prone when trying to do too much

We don't have that prototypical "slasher" on this squad. Smoove is the closest guy to being that.

The minute the Hawks start knocking down open jumpshots ( and tough jumpers by JJ and Jamal ), is the minute you'll see this series change for the better. Bibby, JJ, Jamal, and Horford shot a combined 7 - 34 in last night's game. You're not going to beat anybody shooting like that. In JJ's case, he has to turn the ball over less, and get up more shots. And if he makes a few, he'll be able to pass the ball to other open shooters.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

No, he was not right. We were doing it early in the first quarter then completely abandoned the concept for the rest of the game. This is the only team I've ever seen where when we get our bigs involved or we're attacking the rim or having crisp ball movement that our guards will literally stop doing what is working and go back to Jump Shot City.

This team could beat Orlando and any team in the NBA if we played smarter and had a real coach. It is downright Twilight Zone to see how befuddled our "head" coach is when running an offense. He has no answer to anything except Jump Shot City brought to you by the letters I S O.

A lot of that came via transition though. Smoove got 6 points off of transition opportunities. And the Hawks made 4 jumpshots in that quarter as well. The Hawks were limiting the Magic to one and done opportunities, or creating turnovers, which fueled those opportunities. And they also got a few offensive rebounds, and put the ball back in the hole.

A lot of you are in denial about the impact that Dwight Howard has on our frontline and the aggressiveness of our guards. When these guys get wide open jumpers, they have to knock them down. That's the only way we're going to beat the Magic. In the game we beat them in March, a big reason for the win was Mike Bibby and Mo Evans knocking down outside shots.

[coachx]

A lot of that came via transition though. Smoove got 6 points off of transition opportunities. And the Hawks made 4 jumpshots in that quarter as well. The Hawks were limiting the Magic to one and done opportunities, or creating turnovers, which fueled those opportunities. And they also got a few offensive rebounds, and put the ball back in the hole.

A lot of you are in denial about the impact that Dwight Howard has on our frontline and the aggressiveness of our guards. When these guys get wide open jumpers, they have to knock them down. That's the only way we're going to beat the Magic. In the game we beat them in March, a big reason for the win was Mike Bibby and Mo Evans knocking down outside shots.

This man speaks truth !

+1 for you sir.