Very good article on where we stand with the cap

[thecampster]

http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/2010-cap-space-atlanta/

Here's the deal in short. this year is the JJ year. We won't be able to sign anyone else with the JJ money. It's resign JJ or pray for a sign and trade.

Next year is the Horford year. Crawford walks or is resigned, Either way....money is tied up next year too unless Bibby is traded away to give someone else an expiring contract.

This year is Bibby's year to go.

This year is Josh's year.

This year is Marvin's year.

There you go Hawks fans. Money is tied up every year from here on out. We can't get out of contract situations due to long term deals given to Crawford, Bibby, Johnson, Childress. Johnson, Bibby, Crawford, Childress (all three main guards and the one that should be here) represent approximately 43 million against the cap and without trading Childress away, that won't get better any time soon.

For everyone stating we should resign Joe, the best option is a sign and trade of Joe for something of value from New York, Chicago or wherever else Joe will play. Then packaging Bibby and the rights to Childress plus a draft pick for a useful player on a bad contract (Okafor comes to mind). This will get us back real depth and team players. Our biggest bargaining chip right now is Childress and a draft pick for whomever loses the free agency sweepstakes this off season.

Resigning Joe as you can see by this article would hamstring the franchise financially for years to come.

[thecampster]

http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/2010-teams-with-cap-space-2/

Ok, here is the next article. To put all this "Trade Joe Johnson" craziness to rest. This is a list of the teams that currently have cap space. Only a team that has space can sign him for what they have available or he can sign and trade but only to a team with equal value.

So you see, straight sign, his only current options are :

New York – $20.2-to-$23.4 million in cap space

New Jersey – $20.35-to-$25.5 million in cap space

Miami – $18.4-to-$21.9 million in cap space (note, this is DWade's space).

Chicago – $9.2-to-$17.9 million in cap space

Wade is staying in Miami so just rule them out. If JJ goes elsewhere, it's to either New York, New Jersey or Chicago. yes there are other possibilities but no team in the next tier is bending over backwards to get JJ...no one. Of those teams, JJ will get none of them over the top and they could only sign JJ if they completed a sign and trade with the Hawks to make up the difference...meaning they'd have to make their rosters weaker to sign him.

Now here's the reality. There are 3 free agents on the market that everyone wants. Bosh, Lebron, JJ. Those 3 (DWADE is going back to Miami...bank on it). So Either New York or New Jersey gets Lebron....the other will offer JJ. Whomever offers for either will try to do a sign and trade to free up enough room to add Bosh too. With Approximately 23 million in Space and signing either player to a max deal, you would need to trade away approximately 12 million dollars in salary to be able to sign Bosh too. If for some reason New Jersey bails, look at Chicago to drop in and pick up the pieces....I highly doubt it but it could happen.

If it's the Nets, the only salary they could trade to get them there is Devin Harris and that leaves them without a point.

If it's the Knicks, they would need to trade back either Eddy Curry or both Jeffries and Gallinari. Both Curry and Jeffries are expiring contracts next year and can therefore be moved to a team wanting to clear space for Carmelo in 2011.

So in a real world scenario, what you are looking at Hawks fans is something like Atlanta Signing and trading Joe Johnson for Eddy Curry and then New York siging Bosh to go with him. Then the Hawks can bring back Chilldress to take Johnson's spot while using/holding on to Curry till the trading deadline in 2011 to move for a good player that is under a long contract to a team that is clearing cap space to make a run at Carmelo.

[coachx]

Good articles and thanks for sharing. I hope all of the poster making unrealistic threads on what they would do in NBA 2K11 take note.

As myself and plenty others have stated.........I hope we S&T JJ to Chicago for Hinrich and maybe we get them to throw in pick #17 if we can use the Knicks as leverage.

Sund tells Paxon / Chicago that he would rather have Curry's expiring contract then Hinrich and unless they throw in pick #17 we walk away.

We may have to give up our #25 pick to move up to #17 depending on how we play it.

The Currry option is attractive only if we can turn his expiring contract into a better option then Hinrich at the trade deadline. We should be able to pull that off but there are no guarantees.

For the record I think Crawford's expiring contract may be trade bait to. I don't think we want to resign him after next year considering he will be 32 in the 1st season of his next contract.

Edited May 10, 2010 by coachx

[macdaddy]

For Chicago having Joe and Rose is pretty attractive.

So I can see that only those teams with cap space can sign Joe outright but with a sign and trade couldn't that open the door for other teams if they are sending the same salary that they are signing Joe for to us? Since this is a cap lesson I thought it appropriate to ask here.

[gsuteke]

Not resigning joe is simply not an oiption unless you plan on another total rebuild. The hawks are over the cap so if you don't spend 15 million on jj it just sits there - the team is unable to use that cap space. That cap space only exists through bird rights. It's pretend money (haha run that quote by gearon) which is why so many people say silly things in respect to signing players.

[coachx]

For Chicago having Joe and Rose is pretty attractive.

So I can see that only those teams with cap space can sign Joe outright but with a sign and trade couldn't that open the door for other teams if they are sending the same salary that they are signing Joe for to us? Since this is a cap lesson I thought it appropriate to ask here.

If a team is under the cap the salaries do not have to match in a sign and trade.

If the team is over the cap I believe the S & T has to be within 80%.

[macdaddy]

If a team is under the cap the salaries do not have to match in a sign and trade.

If the team is over the cap I believe the S & T has to be within 80%.

But lets say the SNT is 100%. In effect we could SNT Joe to any team in the league right? Of course the only way this works is if a team has a player making a lot of money they don't want anymore but they really want Joe. But there may be some of that out there.

[Buzzard]

Wade is staying in Miami so just rule them out. If JJ goes elsewhere, it's to either New York, New Jersey or Chicago. yes there are other possibilities but no team in the next tier is bending over backwards to get JJ...no one. Of those teams, JJ will get none of them over the top and they could only sign JJ if they completed a sign and trade with the Hawks to make up the difference...meaning they'd have to make their rosters weaker to sign him.

Can't the Heat sign a FA 1st with their cap space and then sign Wade no matter what due to having his bird rights? I thought that was the whole reason Wade would stay in Miami is if the Heat where willing to do just that to get him some help for another championship run.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Buzzard

[Guest]

Then packaging Bibby and the rights to Childress plus a draft pick for a useful player on a bad contract (Okafor comes to mind). This will get us back real depth and team players. Our biggest bargaining chip right now is Childress and a draft pick for whomever loses the free agency sweepstakes this off season.

You cannot trade Childress' "rights."

[mrhonline]

The way this will likely work itself out in public is as follows:

1. The Hawks will openly state they will make a competitive offer to Joe. It will be a five-year deal, but not the max. Say, $75M or $80M with some incentives thrown in.

2. The big names will fall into place.

3. The teams that lose on LeBron/Wade will quickly turn to JJ and outbid the Hawks.

4. The Hawks will talk to JJ's agent behind the scenes about a S&T.

5. They either fail to negotiate a S&T -or- they succeed....

It'll be a while before we get to stage 4, so we might as well talk "draft" until then.

[niremetal]

You cannot trade Childress' "rights."

It's remarkable that 2 years later, so many people don't get that. Note to world: Childress is a free agent, not a draft pick.

[vext]

Can't the Heat sign a FA 1st with their cap space and then sign Wade no matter what due to having his bird rights? I thought that was the whole reason Wade would stay in Miami is if the Heat where willing to do just that to get him some help for another championship run.

I don't think so. I am pretty sure that Wade will cause a cap hold on Miami for his current salary +. This is similar to the 10mil cap hold that Childress has on us, which is why even if Joe walks we have -1 mil cap space. The purpose of the cap hold is for these exact scenarios so that teams couldn't just go out and sign free agents before handling their own free agents. But I would have to double check on Miami, I know they have JO's 21mil coming off their salary cap this summer.

[Guest]

It's remarkable that 2 years later, so many people don't get that. Note to world: Childress is a free agent, not a draft pick.

Yes, its a frustrating subject.

[Buzzard]

Yes, its a frustrating subject.

Yes most of us understand this but it is also splitting hairs...instead of trading his "rights" chances are the poster meant working out a SNT....

[coachx]

I don't think so. I am pretty sure that Wade will cause a cap hold on Miami for his current salary +. This is similar to the 10mil cap hold that Childress has on us, which is why even if Joe walks we have -1 mil cap space. The purpose of the cap hold is for these exact scenarios so that teams couldn't just go out and sign free agents before handling their own free agents. But I would have to double check on Miami, I know they have JO's 21mil coming off their salary cap this summer.

I may be wrong but I believe that only restricted free agents have cap holds..........not unrestricted free agents.

Edited May 10, 2010 by coachx

[Wurider05]

Man if we do a SNT with Chicago I hope we can get Noah!!

[niremetal]

I may be wrong but I believe that only restricter free agents have cap holds..........not unrestricted free agents.

No, UFAs have cap holds too. If they didn't, teams could manipulate the cap rules by simply changing the order in which they sign players.

There is a loophole if the free agent has a low-ish salary, though - but that's not true of any of the big-name free agents that are hitting the market this summer. If you're interested on the loophole, read on. If not, stop reading.

Say Team A is $20M under the cap. They have a veteran free agent, Player X, who made $6.7M last year (ie more than the midlevel, but not a crazy amount of money). Player X would have a cap hold of $10M, since most veteran free agents' cap hold is 150% of their former slaary. Let's say that as a free agent, Player X will get a contract with a $15M starting salary. Let's also say that Team A wants to both re-sign Player X and also sign another team's free agent, Player Y. Player Y will also get draw a contract with a $15M starting salary.

Team A will not be able to sign both players, no matter the order in which they sign them. If they sign Player X first, they no longer will have the cap space to sign Player Y. And if they want to sign Player Y first, they will have to renounce Player X in order to clear enough cap space - and you can't renounce a renouncement.

But if Team A had $26M in cap space, they would be able to sign both. First, they would have to sign Player Y at $15M/yr. That would be ok because Player X's cap hold is just $10M/yr. After they sign Player Y, they could then sign Player X for $15M/yr.

[coachx]

Man if we do a SNT with Chicago I hope we can get Noah!!

Why would they give away Noah (& his cheap rookie contract) when they can sign JJ out right ?

The only reason they give up Hinrich is b/c they don't want his contract and could use the salary dump to bring in a big to compliment Noah & Gibson.

[coachx]

No, UFAs have cap holds too. If they didn't, teams could manipulate the cap rules by simply changing the order in which they sign players.

Thanks for the correction. I looked on Larry Coon's website for a while before making that statement. All I saw him mention were RFA..........could not him talking about cap - holds with unrestricted free agnets any where.

I totally get why the rule is there.

[mrhonline]

Here's the section, coachx:

http://members.cox.n...larycap.htm#Q30

I'd quote it, but he's got a handy little table that won't paste right.