I got a new game....

[Diesel]

The object of this game is to put a relative value on Marvin + the 24th pick.

I'll start. I have 2.

Marvin + 24th pick = 23rd pick. Ah.. jjk... Really. Marvin = Sessions/23rd.

Minny is in a position where it's time to start over. The problem is that no FA is looking hard at Minny. They have Jefferson and Love which will have to be resolved. They have Gomes and Corey Brewer who are likely starters.

I figure that they will get Cousins with the 4th. They will trade Big Al for something good. They trade for Marvin because of his versatility of being defensive and able to play PF/SF. Love can play C/PF. Cousins will be groomed as a C but with bigs you never know. In the draft, you get a SG at 16. Henry out of Kansas.

Marvin + 24 pick = Nate Robinson SNT.

Welcome to the youth movement. Boston is old. Too much in salary so they have to SNT for what they want.

[lethalweapon3]

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/346997-marvin-plus-the-%2324-spot/

Believe me, I tried. Best answer I could get was an empty bag of potato chips.

~lw3

[spotatl]

I think the first question is whether the Hawks could trade Marvin for the expiring contract of an unwanted player. Could the Hawks get Gadzuric from the Bucks for marvin? Is Marvin's contract still seen as a desirable one to have after this past season? I tend to think that the Hawks could get an expiring contract for Marvin but honestly I don't know that he is worth much more than that given team's current aversion to taking on salary.

The easiest way to think about it is to ask whether Marvin would get more or less than a 4 year 30 million dollar contract if he were a free agent this offseason. I tend to think that fans here would have been irritated with Sund giving him that contract.

[coachx]

If Sund can find a deal for Marvin/#24 that is an actual talent upgrade I will be shocked.

It is so different from the Bibby and Crawford trades where we dumped expiring contracts for talent upgrades. Marvin has 3 years left on his contract.

[Diesel]

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/346997-marvin-plus-the-%2324-spot/

Believe me, I tried. Best answer I could get was an empty bag of potato chips.

~lw3

I missed that.

[Diesel]

If Sund can find a deal for Marvin/#24 that is an actual talent upgrade I will be shocked.

It is so different from the Bibby and Crawford trades where we dumped expiring contracts for talent upgrades. Marvin has 3 years left on his contract.

I know it seemed as though I was not serious, but Marvin/#24 for Nate makes sense for both teams.

The Celtics are already over the cap. They are on the last year of Paul Pierces contract and Allen is a free agent. The really have just about 4 players signed at about 66 Million dollars. They needs players without having to trade away a lot.

I figure, they would take a guy like Marvin simply because he has value and they would SNT nate.

They don't need an expensive BU PG like Nate. However, Marvin is a guy who can play a lot of minutes in Boston especially if they get the injury bug.

Nate for us, could represent a starting PG. He has the speed we like, he can score without help. He's a shorter version of what we expect Teague to look like.

A good coach could use Nate, Teague, and Bibby in a three guard rotation.

This would speed up Teague's development and sets up a Teague/Nate PG of the future scenario.

[Wretch]

I'd really like to see Marvin under a different coach before we move him. I know... I know... It's just that, maybe he might regain the promise he showed the last couple of seasons and it's not like his value is going to get any lower. Unless we could get something real - which I doubt but anyway - I say wait until mid-season (late Dec/Jan time frame) to start exploring options.

[Diesel]

I'd really like to see Marvin under a different coach before we move him. I know... I know... It's just that, maybe he might regain the promise he showed the last couple of seasons and it's not like his value is going to get any lower. Unless we could get something real - which I doubt but anyway - I say wait until mid-season (late Dec/Jan time frame) to start exploring options.

As you know my problem with Marvin is one that is philosophical. I don't think Marvin desire more for himself than to be a mediocre player. I like players who want to be the best. I don't think Marvin wants it. We talk about his aggressiveness, but in his demeanor, you can also see it's more than aggressiveness, it's everything. His body language, his summer activities, his awe of other players (even Stoudamire) suggests that he doesn't really see himself as being able to be great or attain greatness. He doesn't have the desire to do that either. So he will always be the guy with a lot of potential. The problem is that I don't think that there's any coaching that can make him carry that potential to fruition.

His High School Coach didn't.

His AAU coach didn't.

Roy Williams didn't.

Woody didn't.

He's happy being second fiddle.

[Guest]

I'd really like to see Marvin under a different coach before we move him. I know... I know... It's just that, maybe he might regain the promise he showed the last couple of seasons and it's not like his value is going to get any lower. Unless we could get something real - which I doubt but anyway - I say wait until mid-season (late Dec/Jan time frame) to start exploring options.

+1

[AHF]

I'd really like to see Marvin under a different coach before we move him. I know... I know... It's just that, maybe he might regain the promise he showed the last couple of seasons and it's not like his value is going to get any lower. Unless we could get something real - which I doubt but anyway - I say wait until mid-season (late Dec/Jan time frame) to start exploring options.

I agree. He is likely at his low value point right now. If we can get something worthwhile, great. But if we are just looking to unload him for a problem-child or flawed player (like Nate), I would rather see him under a new coach.

Edited June 2, 2010 by AHF

[Dejay]

As you know my problem with Marvin is one that is philosophical. I don't think Marvin desire more for himself than to be a mediocre player. I like players who want to be the best. I don't think Marvin wants it. We talk about his aggressiveness, but in his demeanor, you can also see it's more than aggressiveness, it's everything. His body language, his summer activities, his awe of other players (even Stoudamire) suggests that he doesn't really see himself as being able to be great or attain greatness. He doesn't have the desire to do that either. So he will always be the guy with a lot of potential. The problem is that I don't think that there's any coaching that can make him carry that potential to fruition.

His High School Coach didn't.

His AAU coach didn't.

Roy Williams didn't.

Woody didn't.

He's happy being second fiddle.

Second fiddle? I would've been delighted if he had the desire to be even second fiddle compared to what we've seen. To me, he hasn't shown much second-fiddle 'want to', either.

[thecampster]

I know it seemed as though I was not serious, but Marvin/#24 for Nate makes sense for both teams.

The Celtics are already over the cap. They are on the last year of Paul Pierces contract and Allen is a free agent. The really have just about 4 players signed at about 66 Million dollars. They needs players without having to trade away a lot.

I figure, they would take a guy like Marvin simply because he has value and they would SNT nate.

They don't need an expensive BU PG like Nate. However, Marvin is a guy who can play a lot of minutes in Boston especially if they get the injury bug.

Nate for us, could represent a starting PG. He has the speed we like, he can score without help. He's a shorter version of what we expect Teague to look like.

A good coach could use Nate, Teague, and Bibby in a three guard rotation.

This would speed up Teague's development and sets up a Teague/Nate PG of the future scenario.

I want to play poker with you. Seriously, the trade game isn't about value, it's about perceived value. Imagine you are a GM and you are trying to sell me a player. I present it like this. I've got this 24 year old kid who's averaged 12 points, 5.4 rebounds and only 1 turnover the last 3 years. He plays good 1 on 1 defense and has been a solid team player accepting the role of 4th option. He can shoot the 3 with some accuracy and finish at the rim. I'd like to throw in the 24th pick in the draft. He only makes about $7 million a year. He can play the 3 and the 4 but I've already got 2 players that can start the 3 and the 4 and I'm really trying to make room for a big so I can create a bigger team defensively.

You're doing great so far until you say, "And all I want is your 5'9", bad defense, score first bad pass point guard who is too short and not a good enough passer to be a starter in the NBA."

Marvin has value D. Not to you, but we aren't selling him to you now are we? Think about what team out there needs a 6'8 finisher that can play both inside and out. Not great at any one thing but good at most things (except walking upright and dribbling in traffic). Now go sell him big guy but don't come back saying that he and a first round draft pick are only worth a backup point guard.

[lethalweapon3]

Soooo as far as ideas go, we're down to Ramon+23rd, and the empty bag of Lay's.

~lw3

[JTB]

As you know my problem with Marvin is one that is philosophical. I don't think Marvin desire more for himself than to be a mediocre player. I like players who want to be the best. I don't think Marvin wants it. We talk about his aggressiveness, but in his demeanor, you can also see it's more than aggressiveness, it's everything. His body language, his summer activities, his awe of other players (even Stoudamire) suggests that he doesn't really see himself as being able to be great or attain greatness. He doesn't have the desire to do that either. So he will always be the guy with a lot of potential. The problem is that I don't think that there's any coaching that can make him carry that potential to fruition.

His High School Coach didn't.

His AAU coach didn't.

Roy Williams didn't.

Woody didn't.

He's happy being second fiddle.

Ok answer this why does he think like that?.......maybe because of woody who's not a motivator at all. People change if you didnt know and depending on what coach comes to the hawks certain coaches can get certain players all out of them and personally I know Marvin isn't giving the hawks his all because of his attitude towards his role on the team and to think about it Woody never really discussed marvin as a part of being involved...ya know.....woody didnt run plays his way, he hardly yelled at him or took him to the side to talk things over! he kinda just said "Hey kid get out there play".in other words woody ignored marvin. he was never really big on marvin like he was JJ, smoove, Al, and Bib. Marvin was the odd man out and i know that's how he felt cause you could see it in his attitude, aggressiveness, and hustle! Woody made the man feel like he wasn't needed and thats why marvin is what he is today until we get a real coach who can motivate this young group of guys to play at their best every game liike Skiles did with MIL, that group didnt quit cause they lost they star center! No sir they fought hard and tried to win if that was us and we lost horford we would have rolled over and let them walk all over us and the blame would have been on Woody much like it is in the magic series now.Anyways Marvin dont need to go anywhere until this new coach is for sure he cant get marvins all out of him........oh and deisel Marvins all is something serious if this next coach can get it out of him believe that!!!

[spotatl]

I know it seemed as though I was not serious, but Marvin/#24 for Nate makes sense for both teams.

What the hell are you talking about? You know Nate is an unrestricted free agent right? Just offer him the MLE and you can keep Marvin and the #24.

[coachx]

Marvin has value D. Not to you, but we aren't selling him to you now are we? Think about what team out there needs a 6'8 finisher that can play both inside and out. Not great at any one thing but good at most things (except walking upright and dribbling in traffic). Now go sell him big guy but don't come back saying that he and a first round draft pick are only worth a backup point guard.

Those same teams can go out and get Barnes for $2 or $3 mill a year of Wilkens / Evans for LLE type money while keeping whatever pieces they give up for a Marvin Williams.

Marvin is guaranteed $6.7, $7.5, & $8.2 mill over the next 3 years. That is $22.4 mill over 3 years. A GM could choose Wilkens, Evans, or Barnes for a fraction of what Marvin Williams would cost you while keeping whatever pieces he would have to give up to get Marvin.

We are stuck with Marvin.

Edited June 3, 2010 by coachx

[Wretch]

As you know my problem with Marvin is one that is philosophical. I don't think Marvin desire more for himself than to be a mediocre player. I like players who want to be the best. I don't think Marvin wants it. We talk about his aggressiveness, but in his demeanor, you can also see it's more than aggressiveness, it's everything. His body language, his summer activities, his awe of other players (even Stoudamire) suggests that he doesn't really see himself as being able to be great or attain greatness. He doesn't have the desire to do that either. So he will always be the guy with a lot of potential. The problem is that I don't think that there's any coaching that can make him carry that potential to fruition.

His High School Coach didn't.

His AAU coach didn't.

Roy Williams didn't.

Woody didn't.

He's happy being second fiddle.

Seems that way don't it? I don't think he's happy being the player he is though. That would be the mark of a lazy player, and Marvin just doesn't strike me as that. I honestly think it's confidence. Marvin has been playing scared. Will that change with a new coach? I can't say yes or no for certain. Is it his personality to just accept who he is? Will he respond to being challenged? Has he really been challenged? I think the latter is a better question. The only thing that Mike Woodson gave to Marvin was a wide open shot that he has been off and on with.

...but don't let me sit here and defend him though. Marvin is a #2 pick and a grown-*ss man. It really pisses me off that a guy with that much athleticism, strength, quickness, and the ability to hit shots just stands around aimlessly on the court or sleepwalks occasionally to a 20+ point game. I want to see a real coach light a fire under his *ss and see if he will respond. I'd be ready to dump him then and I think that point is mid-season coming up.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Wretch

[JTB]

Seems that way don't it? I don't think he's happy being the player he is though. That would be the mark of a lazy player, and Marvin just doesn't strike me as that. I honestly think it's confidence. Marvin has been playing scared. Will that change with a new coach? I can't say yes or no for certain. Is it his personality to just accept who he is? Will he respond to being challenged? Has he really been challenged? I think the latter is a better question. The only thing that Mike Woodson gave to Marvin was a wide open shot that he has been off and on with.

...but don't let me sit here and defend him though. Marvin is a #2 pick and a grown-*ss man. It really pisses me off that a guy with that much athleticism, strength, quickness, and the ability to hit shots just stands around aimlessly on the court or sleepwalks occasionally to a 20+ point game. I want to see a real coach light a fire under his *ss and see if he will respond. I'd be ready to dump him then and I think that point is mid-season coming up.

exactly what im saying man let's just wait and see if this new coach can "light a fire under his *ss and get him going" like you said. Marvin has alot of potential and i feel woody didnt use it the right way nor did would even seemed as if he cared about marvin but now that he's gon and we can get a new coach, we need to see how marvin and the rest of these hawks players respond. let's wait to see if they start playing with heart, hustle, whatever! Let's see if this next coach and get these hawks to bring their all every game including the playoffs! If he cant we will know by mid season and then we can start moving our core pieces but right now it doesnt really make sense to.

[NineOhTheRino]

Marvin + the 24th pick = the 24th pick

Other than the Falcons Jimmy Williams (not related) I can't recall being more disappointed in a draft pick. Like many have said already what's the point of trading him now.

Edited June 3, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[lethalweapon3]

The two things of value with Marvin is his experience-to-youth ratio (significant number of starts and still the second youngest on this team, a month before age 24), and his perception as a good on-the-ball defensive player, with room to improve his decision making under the right system, in terms of team defense, passing, and shooting. I think these factors do have value to other NBA teams, particularly those that need an upgrade for talent and depth at the 3 and 4 positions. Also, his demeanor and professionalism may be just what the doctor ordered for a few locker rooms.

Above the Hawks in this draft, there are some teams that do not appear to be satisfied with their roster at SF. Teams such as Portland, San Antonio, Miami, and Minnesota may indeed be interested in dealing rather than taking a rookie with their draft selection, or may realize they could nab Marvin and either provide him backup or fill another need at Pick #24. What's questionable is what they could offer in addition to their pick to make a swap worthwhile.

I've had a mindset of moving up (so the Wolves don't repeat our nightmare from last year), but perhaps getting better talent or depth is what would be the value of moving down instead (or even out of the draft altogether), perhaps with a team like Washington.

~lw3