I got a new game....

[Diesel]

I want to play poker with you. Seriously, the trade game isn't about value, it's about perceived value. Imagine you are a GM and you are trying to sell me a player. I present it like this. I've got this 24 year old kid who's averaged 12 points, 5.4 rebounds and only 1 turnover the last 3 years. He plays good 1 on 1 defense and has been a solid team player accepting the role of 4th option. He can shoot the 3 with some accuracy and finish at the rim. I'd like to throw in the 24th pick in the draft. He only makes about $7 million a year. He can play the 3 and the 4 but I've already got 2 players that can start the 3 and the 4 and I'm really trying to make room for a big so I can create a bigger team defensively.

You're doing great so far until you say, "And all I want is your 5'9", bad defense, score first bad pass point guard who is too short and not a good enough passer to be a starter in the NBA."

Marvin has value D. Not to you, but we aren't selling him to you now are we? Think about what team out there needs a 6'8 finisher that can play both inside and out. Not great at any one thing but good at most things (except walking upright and dribbling in traffic). Now go sell him big guy but don't come back saying that he and a first round draft pick are only worth a backup point guard.

That may fly with the Celtics.

However, let's analyze the facts here. Marvin has value, to another team, however, we have Sfs waiting in the wings who are better for us than Marvin. We're all hoping that a new coach can breathe new life into Marvin and make him worthy of starting or have the guts to make him a bench player. For us, Marvin's salary and the longterm salary is unneccessary if he doesn't produce. For years, we as Hawks fans have overstated Marvin's defense. Marvin's defense is not really that great. His outside shooting is good during a contract year. He's a 2nd string player and he's starting for us.

You say Nate is a bad PG? I don't think so. Nate is a scoring PG. He doesn't try to score. He scores. He's got speed. He's a kick start for an assembly of player strengths that we have (right now). How many times have this "bad" PG torched us?

[Diesel]

Ok answer this why does he think like that?.......maybe because of woody who's not a motivator at all. People change if you didnt know and depending on what coach comes to the hawks certain coaches can get certain players all out of them and personally I know Marvin isn't giving the hawks his all because of his attitude towards his role on the team and to think about it Woody never really discussed marvin as a part of being involved...ya know.....woody didnt run plays his way, he hardly yelled at him or took him to the side to talk things over! he kinda just said "Hey kid get out there play".in other words woody ignored marvin. he was never really big on marvin like he was JJ, smoove, Al, and Bib. Marvin was the odd man out and i know that's how he felt cause you could see it in his attitude, aggressiveness, and hustle! Woody made the man feel like he wasn't needed and thats why marvin is what he is today until we get a real coach who can motivate this young group of guys to play at their best every game liike Skiles did with MIL, that group didnt quit cause they lost they star center! No sir they fought hard and tried to win if that was us and we lost horford we would have rolled over and let them walk all over us and the blame would have been on Woody much like it is in the magic series now.Anyways Marvin dont need to go anywhere until this new coach is for sure he cant get marvins all out of him........oh and deisel Marvins all is something serious if this next coach can get it out of him believe that!!!

Marvin is not Woody's fault. Woody made him a starter and kept him there even though there were others who were definitely better.

The problem is that I don't think that there's any coaching that can make him carry his potential to fruition.

His High School Coach didn't.

His AAU coach didn't.

Roy Williams didn't.

Woody didn't.

You're just reaching again. Next time whoose fault will it be?

[Diesel]

Seems that way don't it? I don't think he's happy being the player he is though. That would be the mark of a lazy player, and Marvin just doesn't strike me as that. I honestly think it's confidence. Marvin has been playing scared. Will that change with a new coach? I can't say yes or no for certain. Is it his personality to just accept who he is? Will he respond to being challenged? Has he really been challenged? I think the latter is a better question. The only thing that Mike Woodson gave to Marvin was a wide open shot that he has been off and on with.

...but don't let me sit here and defend him though. Marvin is a #2 pick and a grown-*ss man. It really pisses me off that a guy with that much athleticism, strength, quickness, and the ability to hit shots just stands around aimlessly on the court or sleepwalks occasionally to a 20+ point game. I want to see a real coach light a fire under his *ss and see if he will respond. I'd be ready to dump him then and I think that point is mid-season coming up.

6 yrs Wretch.

6 years.

Marvin didn't gain any confidence over the last 5 years?

Where was he? He was a starter. He had no competition for his job. He could do what he wanted.

It's funny. Now we're trying to put the blame on Woody or Woody's system... However, JJ never struggled when he moved to Sf??? IF SF is such a systematic problem, why doesn't it affect others when they play it?

The problem was not Woody. It was Marvin. Marvin never wanted more for himself. He is that lazy player... and the sad part is that he has always been that guy.

[lethalweapon3]

Looks like we're still down to this and Ramon+23rd as far as ideas go.

I kinda liked the Nate idea... only insofar as the daily scrimmages in practice may encourage Bibby to retire early! Alas, he's a UFA, and an SNT with Boston is neither probable nor prudent.

I'm no better as far as ideas go for "24+24" alone, which is why my trade-disasters usually added somebody (Bibby, Crawford, Zaza) to the mix to see if we could get more value in return.

~lw3

[AHF]

My view is that Marvin is at his low value right now. Any improvement in play will improve his value (and he clearly has performed better than he did last year) and his value will also increase with the passage of time as his contract shortens. Teams rarely get fair value in a trade for players that are at their low value. Since I don't expect that here, my default view is that Marvin will return and we will wait and see what a new coach and new approach brings out of him.

[Guest Walter]

My view is that Marvin is at his low value right now. Any improvement in play will improve his value (and he clearly has performed better than he did last year) and his value will also increase with the passage of time as his contract shortens. Teams rarely get fair value in a trade for players that are at their low value. Since I don't expect that here, my default view is that Marvin will return and we will wait and see what a new coach and new approach brings out of him.

Let's assume MW has a good month sometime early next season. Can we please unload him then?!?!?!?

His trade value has only decreased as his apologists (they remain just they've gone from projecting stardom for him to protesting criticism of him) persist.

AHF, even I thought the MW value was as low as it could go (meaning we couldn't get equal his "value" back in trade without at least resigning him) and got burned after watching lapses of even realizing MW was on the court or even still playing for us. He's as close to a non-factor as anyone with his gifts can get. The difference this off-season is that we do not have to invest further (resign) in MW. IF we are going to hope he shows something, are we not to the point that IF he does we would be fools not to pull the trigger on a trade. Yes, there is always a chance that trading MW or any "young" player bites you, but with MW is ANYBODY afraid he has the heart to go even Keith Brooking on us much less provide significantly more than whatever we get? Unlike KB, I think trading MW might just finish off breaking his fragile spirit and he might retire or diminish further. He's that weak IMHO.

One good month (unless it's 18PPG or more) and trade him.

W

[AHF]

I'd like to see if he can turn things around under a new coach but I don't object to a trade with him that improves our team.

[Final_quest]

Marvin was a bad signing last offseason. We paid too much for him in what many labeled our greatest offseason of all time. We overpaid for aging Bibby and Marvin when no other team was spending. Now we'd have to take on equally bad contracts to get rid of them.