Is Joe the same player without Woody?

[Wurider05]

Now JJ benefited supremely from Woody's ISO JJ offense hence the name. Even then he only averaged 21-22 ppg. Now if we get a new coach who decides to spread the ball more them JJ's point production goes down. No more All-star team, no more most underrated player. JJ and his agent has to realize that the situation will change here. We have too much talent for him to get most of the shots. He and his agent knows this. Now if Woody ran a decent offense I think that JJ gives you 17-19ppg he would have the balls to ask for the max. Without Woody what kind of player would JJ be.

JJ is a good player but he is a product of Woody's system. Maybe he can give us more rebounds and assists but this will be a new team next season. Woody's system allowed him to ask for the max and now Woody is gone!!

[frosgrim]

In a good, motion oriented offense, Joe could be a more efficient player than he was under Woodson. In today's NBA you have to run some iso. What can't happen in the new offense is 50% or more of the plays being iso Joe or Crawford. That percentage probably needs to be in the 30s.

Does this mean that Joe's numbers would drop in a non-iso system? Not necessarily. His scoring numbers could drop, or it could be that Joe gets better looks within the flow of the offense and still gets his 20, while shooting a higher percentage.

[Wretch]

In a good, motion oriented offense, Joe could be a more efficient player than he was under Woodson. In today's NBA you have to run some iso. What can't happen in the new offense is 50% or more of the plays being iso Joe or Crawford. That percentage probably needs to be in the 30s.

Does this mean that Joe's numbers would drop in a non-iso system? Not necessarily. His scoring numbers could drop, or it could be that Joe gets better looks within the flow of the offense and still gets his 20, while shooting a higher percentage.

Agreed 100%. I think the ISO offense actually held JJ back from the type of player he could really be. Think about it... Basketball is a game of adjustments just like any other. How silly is it then to go to the same play with the same player OVER AND OVER again. And considering that JJ really isn't the type of player that can carry a team in an ISO offense...we were REALLY shooting ourselves in the foot. Combining that with him having to shoot over 2-3 guys night in and night out? It's no wonder he has interest in a place with an already established star.

[macdaddy]

I don't think its Woody or Joe's stats that are getting him big money. Its that he lead this team to 50+ wins. Without Joe we would have been pretty poor especially before Crawford came here. We have some great talent but only one true scorer in 08-09 and two with Crawford this season. Look at the other top teams they have 2 or 3 big time offensive players and usually a post guy and wings. We have two wings who shoot a lot of jump shots yet we still won a lot of games.

[Cwell]

he averaged 17 pts his last two years in phx and wasn't even the top option there. What does that tell u?

[99PROBL3MS]

I'm with Cwell. He averaged 17pts as a fourth option in Phoenix. If he played with a PG that could get him some easy shots I think his scoring would actually go up 2-4pts per game.

[Wretch]

he averaged 17 pts his last two years in phx and wasn't even the top option there. What does that tell u?

Very good point. People hate on JJ and want to pile all the responsibility for our shortcomings on him. They really don't know the talent that they want to throw away...

[Cwell]

I'm with Cwell. He averaged 17pts as a fourth option in Phoenix. If he played with a PG that could get him some easy shots I think his scoring would actually go up 2-4pts per game.

exactly, and also he was 2nd in the league in 3 pt shooting his last year in phoenix with Nash setting him up. shot 48 percent from 3

Edited June 3, 2010 by Cwell

[NineOhTheRino]

according to the experts on HS.net every guy on the team should be headed to the HOF now that the worst coach in NBA history is gone.

[Tumbleweed]

Everyone of you is getting it wrong, even the OP, although I agree with his conclusion. This offense was all JJ's from the minute he stepped

foot in Atlanta, you cannot call it "Woody's Offense". I have talked about this before, but what we saw in Atlanta under JJ's tenure, was the

most ideal/optimal offense for JJ's skills and compfort zone. That is why some of the other players were not happy with the system, it catered

to JJ's strengths and not the team's as a whole, this team had all the components of a running team. So let's call it "JJ's Offense".

Now your man would no doubt do well in other systems, but he would be out of his compfort zone would not be happy just being "another" option

on THIS team. That is why he has to move on, he will/have to accept that role on another team. If he stays here he is going to have to be the man,

and he is just not worth it.

[99PROBL3MS]

Everyone of you is getting it wrong, even the OP, although I agree with his conclusion. This offense was all JJ's from the minute he stepped

foot in Atlanta, you cannot call it "Woody's Offense". I have talked about this before, but what we saw in Atlanta under JJ's tenure, was the

most ideal/optimal offense for JJ's skills and compfort zone. That is why some of the other players were not happy with the system, it catered

to JJ's strengths and not the team's as a whole, this team had all the components of a running team. So let's call it "JJ's Offense".

Now your man would no doubt do well in other systems, but he would be out of his compfort zone would not be happy just being "another" option

on THIS team. That is why he has to move on, he will/have to accept that role on another team. If he stays here he is going to have to be the man,

and he is just not worth it.

You really think this offense fits JJ's strengths? An offense that has him going 1-on-5 all game? Wow is all I can say.......JJ is one of the leagues most versatile scorers he would do well in any system. This offense was certainly not the "optimal offense for JJ's skills". What are you basing that on?

[AHF]

you cannot call it "Woody's Offense".

Woody had 6 years to implement his offense and didn't implement his own offense? That is harsher condemnation of Woody than even I am willing to dish out.

[tbhawksfan]

Is Joe the same player without Woody?

No; A new coach BETTER install an offensive scheme that involves the team and exploits all the players strengths. JJ would be a focal point of any coach's offense, they would just set him up and involve the rest of the team.

[Tumbleweed]

Woody had 6 years to implement his offense and didn't implement his own offense? That is harsher condemnation of Woody than even I am willing to dish out.

+1, I'm afraid so. If you go back to some of Woody's quotes from when we first got JJ, it is so obvious, that everything was and was going to

be set-up around Joe. It did not matter what type of talent we already had or were to aquire, it was always going to be "JJ's Offense". To make

it worse, JJ never passed out of double/tripple teams consistenly like he should have. That's because he did not have to, it was his show,

Woody would never have had the guts to ruffle him.

[HawkItus]

I asked this question a few months back. IMO, Joe is going to be amazing with the new team he signs with. The problem here has been the absence of actual coaching. Joe probably thought high usage and possession of the ball in 75% of offensive sets was good for him, but that's why he is a player. Good coaches like Phil Jackson convince Jordan and Kobe that sharing the ball is the best option. Woody basically said "I'm not getting on guys about offense as long as they defend" Joe was one of our most consistent defenders, so he never got coached on the offensive end. When he goes to NY, Miami or Chicago he'll get coaching on that end and he'll be better.

[RedDawg#8]

I believe that any player will increase his effeciency when there is an actual system in place that takes advantage of his strengths. I also think that the best players HAVE to be able to be creative once the original play fails. JJ was one of the leagues best shooters in PHX, and once he came here he became one the the better 1 on 1 guys (something he didnt do much of PHX). So in a system that is designed to get him OPEN shots on a regular basis, I would say he could be even better than he was under Woody, because even if he isnt able to get open he has shown the ability to create shots for himself. Basically combining his strengths from his past two systems by not making him work hard every possession to score a bucket, until cruch time or blown plays.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

These threads get nuttier by the day.

What Hawks team have you guys been watching over the past 5 years? Seriously?

I think it's hilarious for people to say that JJ benefitted greatly from Woody's offense, yet, give Woody no credit whatsoever for the development of JJ. Woody definitely put JJ in position to be a 4-time All-Star, by giving him "superstar reaponsibilities."

But you guys act like Woody had the talent at PG to delegate a lot of responsibility to other players.

PGs in the JJ era::

- Royal Ivey

- Tyronn Lue

- Anthony Johnson

- Salim Stoudamire ( at times )

- Speedy Claxton

- Acie Law

- Mike Bibby

- Jeff Teague

- Jamal Crawford

You need a floor leader to run good offense in the NBA, whether it be a PG, SG or Point Forward. Which one of those guys were a better floor leader than JJ? I mean, dang . . . look at that list. Bibby was by far the best floor leader. But when he turned to garbage as the year went on, he couldn't even get it done. And JJ, for the most part, had to set up all of these guys ( except Crawford ) for open shots. And he even started doing it for Crawford as the season wore on.

What team are you guys watching?

Low post options for the Hawks in the JJ era:

- Al Harrington

- Josh Smith

- Lorenzen Wright

- Esteban Batista

- Zaza Pachulia

- Shelden Williams

- Solomon Jones

- Al Horford

- Joe Smith

Who is the best scorer down on the blocks? Harrington? And even with Harrington, he may have only had the best post-up moves If he had his preference, he's play from 18 feet on out.

What team were you guys watching?

And how can anybody criticize JJ for not passing more, even though he averaged over 5 assists as a Hawk, and led the Hawks in assists 4 of the 5 years?

IF you want to say that he didn't pass quick enough out of double teams, that's a fair criticism. But when he did pass, did guys consistently knock down shots? Did Bibby? How about Marvin? Mo? Smoove? This year, only Horford and Crawford knocked down shots when JJ kicked the ball to them.

Woody pretty much HAD to design the offense around JJ's array of skills, seeing that it was one of the strengths of the team, and because JJ was one of the few players on each of those Hawk teams, who could creat AD MAKE his own shot.

Seriously? What team have you guys been watching, to believe that they'd be better off with LESS involvement of JJ in the offense?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

These threads get nuttier by the day.

What Hawks team have you guys been watching over the past 5 years? Seriously?

I think it's hilarious for people to say that JJ benefitted greatly from Woody's offense, yet, give Woody no credit whatsoever for the development of JJ. Woody definitely put JJ in position to be a 4-time All-Star, by giving him "superstar reaponsibilities."

But you guys act like Woody had the talent at PG to delegate a lot of responsibility to other players.

PGs in the JJ era::

- Royal Ivey

- Tyronn Lue

- Anthony Johnson

- Salim Stoudamire ( at times )

- Speedy Claxton

- Acie Law

- Mike Bibby

- Jeff Teague

- Jamal Crawford

You need a floor leader to run good offense in the NBA, whether it be a PG, SG or Point Forward. Which one of those guys were a better floor leader than JJ? I mean, dang . . . look at that list. Bibby was by far the best floor leader. But when he turned to garbage as the year went on, he couldn't even get it done. And JJ, for the most part, had to set up all of these guys ( except Crawford ) for open shots. And he even started doing it for Crawford as the season wore on.

What team are you guys watching?

Low post options for the Hawks in the JJ era:

- Al Harrington

- Josh Smith

- Lorenzen Wright

- Esteban Batista

- Zaza Pachulia

- Shelden Williams

- Solomon Jones

- Al Horford

- Joe Smith

Who is the best scorer down on the blocks? Harrington? And even with Harrington, he may have only had the best post-up moves If he had his preference, he's play from 18 feet on out.

What team were you guys watching?

And how can anybody criticize JJ for not passing more, even though he averaged over 5 assists as a Hawk, and led the Hawks in assists 4 of the 5 years?

IF you want to say that he didn't pass quick enough out of double teams, that's a fair criticism. But when he did pass, did guys consistently knock down shots? Did Bibby? How about Marvin? Mo? Smoove? This year, only Horford and Crawford knocked down shots when JJ kicked the ball to them.

Woody pretty much HAD to design the offense around JJ's array of skills, seeing that it was one of the strengths of the team, and because JJ was one of the few players on each of those Hawk teams, who could create AND MAKE his own shot.

Seriously? What team have you guys been watching, to believe that they'd be better off with LESS involvement of JJ in the offense?

[Diesel]

Now JJ benefited supremely from Woody's ISO JJ offense hence the name. Even then he only averaged 21-22 ppg. Now if we get a new coach who decides to spread the ball more them JJ's point production goes down. No more All-star team, no more most underrated player. JJ and his agent has to realize that the situation will change here. We have too much talent for him to get most of the shots. He and his agent knows this. Now if Woody ran a decent offense I think that JJ gives you 17-19ppg he would have the balls to ask for the max. Without Woody what kind of player would JJ be.

JJ is a good player but he is a product of Woody's system. Maybe he can give us more rebounds and assists but this will be a new team next season. Woody's system allowed him to ask for the max and now Woody is gone!!

I think what will happen is that in a non-Iso offense, Joe's effeciency goes through the roof. I think what Joe has needed is a PG who could run the show. Somebody who could find him in his spot but at the same time not allow him to hold the ball. Joe won't like that, but it will certain work better. I really think if Joe gets his money, he won't care as much. He wants to win.

[Tumbleweed]

These threads get nuttier by the day.

What team are you guys watching?

What team were you guys watching?

Seriously? What team have you guys been watching, to believe that they'd be better off with LESS involvement of JJ in the offense?

Sounds like you may be starting a song there. I've watched a lot of NBA basketball, and have interviewed many of the biggest names in the sport.

First off, what the Hawks did was good enough to win 50 games (not too shabby). But, what myself and many astute fans on this MB realize, is that's

as far as it goes with this cast. Woody thought JJ was the second coming of Jordan, and handed the offense to him, while he focused on the 'D'. Woody

was weak and easily intimidated by some players, while JJ was quiet but with a huge EGO. You did not need JJ to handle the ball three quarters of

the game, for the Hawks to play winning basketball. If the right system were implemented you could have high school kids out ther making great passes.

And most people forget, that the Hawks did not start playing better than .500 ball, until big Al came town.

So for Woody to hand over the Offense to a player of JJ's caliber(3rd option on Jordan's team), was to put the ceiling at 50 wins, and a second round exit.

That's why he was fired. As a matter of fact I think JJ has to go with him, Woody has inflated his ego way too high, for him to work with this unit.