All We Need Is a Small Forward Worth a Damn

[Diesel]

I am not saying we are not weak at the SF position. We are weak at PF and Center also when matched up against the likes of Howard and Bosh. But you said adamantly SF needs to be changed or we will be horrible. You do make it out to be a blame game when you say things like this (Had Marvin been better, we would have had better effort from the others.) . I think PG is the position that needs to be changed more than anything else; and if I can only fix one position this off season, PG is it.

Our starting PG played just as weak; and at times weaker, than our starting SF. PG is much more critical when trying to get to the next level than SF IMO; unless of course we can figure out a way to get the likes of Lebron.

Well, let's look at it realistically.

How many times does Horf make an impact on games?

How many times does Smoove make an impact on games?

If you're honest, you would say too many to count.

How many times does Marvin make an impact on games? I'm not talking about some unseen impact, I'm talking about if Marvin was not there, we would have definitely lost?

If you're honest, you would say very few times.

It's no doubt that we could stand to improve the PG play on our team.. However, with the greatest of PG play, Marvin probably still would not be impactful. He doesn't seem to care. He has never seemed to care. I'm not talking about him being nonchalant like Joe. Because even Joe Cool shows up and makes an impact when the team needs it. However, when the team needs it.. especially when the other players are not fairing well, Marvin cannot be counted on. The Bulls used to do something very peculiar on defense. Pippen would defend the best player and Jordan would end up on the worst backcourt or Sf player. Then Jordan would play off of his man and be an automatic double team on the better post players or backcourt players. If that team were playing today, MJs assigned man would be Marvin.

[Diesel]

The point was Center...Howard vs Horf...PF Bosh vs Smoove = bad matchups. Bosh had a bad season against us as did Smoove vs Toronto. Horf vs Howard is not even a close call. Point is we are weak when matched up like this. Nothing more; nothing less; and it is not Marvins fault which is what Diesel is trying to say in no uncertain terms with this quote:

Had Marvin been better, we would have had better effort from the others.

IMO PG is the man who gets and keeps everyone involved. If we are going to blame anyone, which I did not do, for our team not being involved and/or playing without effort, it starts with the coach and PG; not the SF lol. And to say our SF is our weakest position is totally ignoring how weak Bibby was this season. PG or SF, I will take better PG play vs SF play all day long as our most needed improvement.

Yep.

Just imagine for a second. Orlando vs. Atlanta. IF Marvin is stroking from the midrange or from the outside, what's Orlando's response going to be? Either they will stretch their defense (giving Horf and Smoove more room inside) or they will try to double... Freeing up either Smoove, Joe or Bibby. Do you not see how if Marvin were better, it would not have helped the other guys games??

Instead, what did we have. Marvin does what he normally does, drift off to the three point line and become a useless decoy... Orlando collapses on the paint.. Orlando shut down Smoove and Horf from inside. Smoove goes outside and begins chucking threes again.

[Diesel]

Heading toward three pages of back-and-forth and the only mentions of "Small Forwards Worth a D@mm" or "Small Forwards Who Will Give a D@mm" to pursue are T-Mac and (if they want to return) Childress and Kleiza?

Let's leave the psychoanalysis to Dr. Joyce Brothers.

IF Marvin doesn't cut it, WHO do y'all want starting at the 3 next season, and HOW do we get them?

~lw3

Chillz definitely. I think the experience of having to be the man and taking a team to a winning position has made Chillz a much better player.

If we could pull Chillz and Kleiza that would be great.

[Buzzard]

Yep.

Just imagine for a second. Orlando vs. Atlanta. IF Marvin is stroking from the midrange or from the outside, what's Orlando's response going to be? Either they will stretch their defense (giving Horf and Smoove more room inside) or they will try to double... Freeing up either Smoove, Joe or Bibby. Do you not see how if Marvin were better, it would not have helped the other guys games??

Instead, what did we have. Marvin does what he normally does, drift off to the three point line and become a useless decoy... Orlando collapses on the paint.. Orlando shut down Smoove and Horf from inside. Smoove goes outside and begins chucking threes again.

You seem to be blaming Marvin for our lack of ball movement here. In the first bolded sentence you say if he is shooting he would be more effective; and in the very next bolded sentence you have him where or near where you want him to be but without the ball. No doubt in my mind, for better or worse depending how his shot is going that night, Marvin would shoot more if passed to more. As is there is no doubts that when a player is not trusted to be passed to he is a useless decoy.

Marvin and Bibby both were atrocious on the offensive end as far as PPG go. But Bibby is atrocious on the defensive end as well; where as at least Marvin defends his position at a average to better than average way depending on his matchup. Bibby could not defend a fly if he had him trapped in a paper bag.

PG is where the improvement must happen; if we are to keep improving. All this talk about us being like Detroit is dead on without us having a bonfide superstar. And all you have to do is look at what happened to Detroit as soon as Dumars traded away Billups to understand what a PG means to this team. No solid PG, and we may slip this year with other teams improving. Get a solid PG and we have a chance to get to the next level.

Tayshaun Prince is no superstar; but Chancey made him into a very good role player on a championship team. I understand wanting more than that from our SF; but not everyone can be a all-star in todays market. Especially for our market. A good coach and PG will get everyone on our team the ball where they like having it. That is exactly what Brown and Chancey did, night in and night out.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Buzzard

[Diesel]

You seem to be blaming Marvin for our lack of ball movement here. In the first bolded sentence you say if he is shooting he would be more effective; and in the very next bolded sentence you have him where or near where you want him to be but without the ball. No doubt in my mind, for better or worse depending how his shot is going that night, Marvin would shoot more if passed to more. As is there is no doubts that when a player is not trusted to be passed to he is a useless decoy.

Marvin and Bibby both were atrocious on the offensive end as far as PPG go. But Bibby is atrocious on the defensive end as well; where as at least Marvin defends his position at a average to better than average way depending on his matchup. Bibby could not defend a fly if he had him trapped in a paper bag.

PG is where the improvement must happen; if we are to keep improving. All this talk about us being like Detroit is dead on without us having a bonfide superstar. And all you have to do is look at what happened to Detroit as soon as Dumars traded away Billups to understand what a PG means to this team. No solid PG, and we may slip this year with other teams improving. Get a solid PG and we have a chance to get to the next level.

Tayshaun Prince is no superstar; but Chancey made him into a very good role player on a championship team. I understand wanting more than that from our SF; but not everyone can be a all-star in todays market. Especially for our market. A good coach and PG will get everyone on our team the ball where they like having it. That is exactly what Brown and Chancey did, night in and night out.

You're trying to give Marvin a pass for not doing anything. Marvin was attrocious. That wasn't Bibby's fault, that was Marvin's fault. Again, How do you account for Marvin's good play during his contract year? You were on his bandwagon strong during his contract year. That was 1 year ago.

[High5]

Woodson was a horrible motivator and a worse X's and O's guy. I still have hope that a more fiery and competent coach can get something out of Marvin. As disappointing as he has been, there are worse things than a gifted 23 year old with motivation issues. Our PG play is a much bigger concern.

[NineOhTheRino]

Woodson was a horrible motivator and a worse X's and O's guy. I still have hope that a more fiery and competent coach can get something out of Marvin. As disappointing as he has been, there are worse things than a gifted 23 year old with motivation issues. Our PG play is a much bigger concern.

funny how he was able to motivate Al and Josh

You're trying to give Marvin a pass for not doing anything. Marvin was attrocious. That wasn't Bibby's fault, that was Marvin's fault. Again, How do you account for Marvin's good play during his contract year? You were on his bandwagon strong during his contract year. That was 1 year ago.

you got it right again. Marvin's only objective is maintaining his lifestyle. Some here are using Woody's system and other players as an excuse.

Edited June 8, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[Buzzard]

You're trying to give Marvin a pass for not doing anything. Marvin was attrocious. That wasn't Bibby's fault, that was Marvin's fault. Again, How do you account for Marvin's good play during his contract year? You were on his bandwagon strong during his contract year. That was 1 year ago.

How is saying we are weak at SF but weaker at PG giving anyone a pass. You are incredulous when it comes to reading things that are not there. My statements on our teams weakness are exactly what they have been since I noticed Bibbys game take a dive. Here is the exact order I see as our teams weaknesses. Listed 1 through 6, with 1 being the most obvious and blatant weakness and 6 being our most obvious strength.:

1: Coaching everything weak

2: PG everything weak with exception of leadership and experience

3: SF offensive game issues and motvation issues

4: PF range issue, size issue, and motivation issues

5: Center range issue and size issue

6: SG about as good as we can expect from a non elite player (If we lose JJ, this could easily move into a 3b with Marvin.)

We need a coach and PG first and foremost to help hide our teams weaknesses and better exploit our players strengths. That is my opinion. Now please try and read something factual into that.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Buzzard

[High5]

funny how he was able to motivate Al and Josh

The Josh Smith that constantly slacked off? The Josh Smith who was a huge embarrassment walking up and down the court during the playoffs? The Josh Smith that has shot out of his range for his entire career? Josh Smith is 2nd to Marvin in the lack of motivation department. He's flying high when things are going well, but he crumbles when things don't go his way.

You can't give Woodson credit for Horford's attitude. He played the exact same way in college.

[Diesel]

How is saying we are weak at SF but weaker at PG giving anyone a pass. You are incredulous when it comes to reading things that are not there. My statements on our teams weakness are exactly what they have been since I noticed Bibbys game take a dive. Here is the exact order I see as our teams weaknesses. Listed 1 through 6, with 1 being the most obvious and blatant weakness and 6 being our most obvious strength.:

1: Coaching everything weak

2: PG everything weak with exception of leadership and experience

3: SF offensive game issues and motvation issues

4: PF range issue, size issue, and motivation issues

5: Center range issue and size issue

6: SG about as good as we can expect from a non elite player (If we lose JJ, this could easily move into a 3b with Marvin.)

We need a coach and PG first and foremost to help hide our teams weaknesses and better exploit our players strengths. That is my opinion. Now please try and read something factual into that.

When you try to use the PG weakness to justify the Sf weakness... that's giving the Sf a pass.

The Sf has to be able to do something other than take up space on the floor. It was like we were playing 4 on 5 basketball. Marvin didn't insert himself into the offense or defense and it looked as though he didn't care to. I can't blame Bibby for that. I can't blame Woody for that. That's Marvin's personality and has been since forever.

[Diesel]

The Josh Smith that constantly slacked off? The Josh Smith who was a huge embarrassment walking up and down the court during the playoffs? The Josh Smith that has shot out of his range for his entire career? Josh Smith is 2nd to Marvin in the lack of motivation department. He's flying high when things are going well, but he crumbles when things don't go his way.

You can't give Woodson credit for Horford's attitude. He played the exact same way in college.

The same Josh Smith who was predicted to be a bust when he was drafted. Who had no true skills but athleticsim. However, now was considered a should have been allstar... that Josh Smith.

[lethalweapon3]

Onto page 4 and still no new names for SFs "Worth a D@mm" or "Wlling to Give a D@mm."

Matt Barnes? Travis Outlaw? Any other free agent SF names to throw the MLE or veterans' minimum at?

~lw3

[DJlaysitup]

The problem with Marvin is that he isn't very good. Face it. The guy simply isn't very good.

He can make a few shots now and then and can dunk (on nobody defending).......but he isn't very good.....or even average.

[thecampster]

When you try to use the PG weakness to justify the Sf weakness... that's giving the Sf a pass.

The Sf has to be able to do something other than take up space on the floor. It was like we were playing 4 on 5 basketball. Marvin didn't insert himself into the offense or defense and it looked as though he didn't care to. I can't blame Bibby for that. I can't blame Woody for that. That's Marvin's personality and has been since forever.

Just a question here, not a criticism but a question to help you validate your point. How many players that played the majority of their games at SF this year played better (statistically) than Marvin and earned less that 7.5 million. It's just a question, but a fair one I'd say. I'd be interested to see the list.

[Diesel]

Onto page 4 and still no new names for SFs "Worth a D@mm" or "Wlling to Give a D@mm."

Matt Barnes? Travis Outlaw? Any other free agent SF names to throw the MLE or veterans' minimum at?

~lw3

Well, you got two good ones right there. Plus, you failed to mention Chillz. I also like Jarvis Hayes. Then there are guys who I would just check to see if there was anything there: Rodney Carney and Kyle Kover.

[Diesel]

Just a question here, not a criticism but a question to help you validate your point. How many players that played the majority of their games at SF this year played better (statistically) than Marvin and earned less that 7.5 million. It's just a question, but a fair one I'd say. I'd be interested to see the list.

Stephen Jackson.

Shawn Marion

Charlie Villanueva

Raja Bell

Azubike

Ariza

Artest

Rasual Butler

Jerry Stackhouse

John Salmons

Carlos Delfino

Corey Brewer

Gallinari

Jeff Green

Jason Kapono

Grant Hill

Nocioni

[lethalweapon3]

Well, you got two good ones right there. Plus, you failed to mention Chillz. I also like Jarvis Hayes. Then there are guys who I would just check to see if there was anything there: Rodney Carney and Kyle Kover.

Chillz and Kleiza were cited previously, as well as T-Mac, although Jarvis is new to this thread. I was asking about options that the MLE or vet-minimum might apply to if the Hawks were to use it to bolster their SF rotation, plus it appears the ball is in Childress' court as to whether he wishes to return to the NBA.

Which leads me to a question, for my own clarification. Is it correct that Childress' qualifying offer (I believe it's somewhere around $5 million) doesn't eat up either of the exceptions or vet-minimum money the Hawks might use to find free agents? That is, as far as the cap goes, is Chillz in the "Hawks can re-sign their own free agents" category?

~lw3

[lethalweapon3]

SFs so far:

Childress (~$4.8 million QO) 2010 Salary ~$6 million w/ taxes paid (Greece)

Kleiza (via Sign-and-Trade, ~$2.8 million QO) 2010 Salary ~$6 million w/ taxes paid (Greece)

T-Mac (Vet Min, $1.35 million, Bi-Annual, $2.08 million, or part of ~$6 million MLE) 09-10 Salary $22.5 million

Jarvis (Bi-Annual, $2.08 million, or part of ~$6 million MLE) 09-10 Salary $2.1 million

Korver (Vet Min, $1.15 million, Bi-Annual, $2.08 million, or part of ~$6 million MLE)** 09-10 Salary $5.2 million

Carney (Vet Min, $0.92 million, Bi-Annual, $2.08 million,or part of ~$6 million MLE) 09-10 Salary $0.83 million

Outlaw (Vet Min, $1.15 million, Bi-Annual, $2.08 million, or part of ~$6 million MLE) 09-10 Salary $3.6 million

** I'm sure the media mentioned it a million times during the Jazz' post season, but I didn't know in limited action that Kyle broke the NBA regular season record for 3-point FG% (53.6%)

~lw3

Edited June 9, 2010 by lethalweapon3

[Diesel]

Chillz and Kleiza were cited previously, as well as T-Mac, although Jarvis is new to this thread. I was asking about options that the MLE or vet-minimum might apply to if the Hawks were to use it to bolster their SF rotation, plus it appears the ball is in Childress' court as to whether he wishes to return to the NBA.

Which leads me to a question, for my own clarification. Is it correct that Childress' qualifying offer (I believe it's somewhere around $5 million) doesn't eat up either of the exceptions or vet-minimum money the Hawks might use to find free agents? That is, as far as the cap goes, is Chillz in the "Hawks can re-sign their own free agents" category?

~lw3

That's correct. Chillz has bird rights with Atlanta and his deal wouldn't touch an exception.

[Diesel]

SFs so far:

Childress (~$4.8 million QO)

Kleiza (via Sign-and-Trade, ~$2.8 million QO)

T-Mac (Vet Min, $1.35 million, or Bi-Annual, $2.08 million)

Jarvis (Bi-Annual, $2.08 million)

Korver (Vet Min, $1.15 million, or Bi-Annual, $2.08 million)**

** I'm sure the media mentioned it a million times during the Jazz' post season, but I didn't know in limited action that Kyle broke the NBA regular season record for 3-point FG% (53.6%)

~lw3

Don't forget Carney for a cheap contract too.

And another new one is Raja Bell.