All We Need Is a Small Forward Worth a Damn

[Buzzard]

Had Marvin been better, we would have had better effort from the others. It's hard carrying dead weight. Would that have meant Championship? Maybe not, but it wouldn't have been poor showing.

Yep its Marvin fault Bibby and Joe Smith was dead weight most of the season. As is its his fault JJ, Smoove, and Craw had a bad series against the Magic, not just for the playoffs, but for JJ and Smoove the last three years. We need a PG more than a big or small forward. Don't think I am right, check out what Jamison did for the Cavs this year. They played worse and exited sooner.

Bash Marvin all you want; but the Lakers and Kobe are the only team playing right now that can get to elite level without a rock solid PG.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Buzzard

[Diesel]

Marvin doesn't want it, if that's not clear to some on here now it never will be. He doesn't have it in him to be a star.. Has nothing to do with his potential..

There's an old addage...

You can have a big tool box but if you don't know how to use the tools, it doesn't mean much.

Well, Marvin has a big tool box (potential) but he doesn't know how to use the tools and he'd rather pay somebody to do the job anyway.

[Diesel]

Yep its Marvin fault Bibby and Joe Smith was dead weight most of the season. As is its his fault JJ, Smoove, and Craw had a bad series against the Magic, not just for the playoffs, but for JJ and Smoove the last three years. We need a PG more than a big or small forward. Don't think I am right, check out what Jamison did for the Cavs this year. They played worse and exited sooner.

Bash Marvin all you want; but the Lakers and Kobe are the only team playing right now that can get to elite level without a rock solid PG.

This is not about Blame or Fault. The offseason is the chance to realistically look at the team and determine what needs to be changed. In this case, what needs to be changed is SF. Period.

Now you can go on making Marvin the victim... but Marvin has made over 30 Million dollars from this franchise. Have we gotten 30 million dollars worth of product? I think if you take all the years that Nique was a Hawk, he didn't make 30 Million dollars.

Even now. you can't play like Mo Evans and make that much money and assume that it's alright or you deserve one more chance. Marvin doesn't deserve anything. He's a thief and it's high time that we make the necessary change to make this team better if that means sending him away or to the bench, he can't be a starter anymore.

[Buzzard]

This is not about Blame or Fault. The offseason is the chance to realistically look at the team and determine what needs to be changed. In this case, what needs to be changed is SF. Period.

Now you can go on making Marvin the victim... but Marvin has made over 30 Million dollars from this franchise. Have we gotten 30 million dollars worth of product? I think if you take all the years that Nique was a Hawk, he didn't make 30 Million dollars.

Even now. you can't play like Mo Evans and make that much money and assume that it's alright or you deserve one more chance. Marvin doesn't deserve anything. He's a thief and it's high time that we make the necessary change to make this team better if that means sending him away or to the bench, he can't be a starter anymore.

We just have to disagree big time on this one. What needs to change 1st and foremost is our PG play. If we get the same play out of the PG, without adding a superstar in a trade, we will have the same results next season. Quite possibly worse IMO.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Buzzard

[Diesel]

I do not know about the usefulness on the court part, but if he wants to make the quantum leap as a player, he will need build a desire for the sport. Forget about the bloggers and just find away to get better. He's talented enough to where if you give him the shots, he will get 18per a game. That is the reason why teams, not just the Hawks wanted Williams, the problem is when it's not given to you what do you do then. When he lost his 4th quarter minutes to Jamal, instead of work harder, prove to the coach that I am a key component and bust his *ss, what did he do? He sat on the bench, smiled, he had that stupid towel over his head looking like a limped legged hobo and was okay with what transpired. Now if he was Bibby or Fisher who lost minutes because frankly, they don't have it anymore, I would have been okay with that, but not for Marvin. He's too talented to lose minutes to a guy who's only weapon is his scoring ability. Marvin needs to grow some is the better term and I wish Atlanta would have drafted Deron like I through they were going to do. Oh well, that's beyond time, the bottom-line is Marvin needs to understand that even if this is a job, take it serious and fight for promotion or in his case, more responsibility within the team.

You have just describe Marvin. Period. He doesn't want it. It was evident back at UNC. He played behind Jawad Williams... Why? Williams was not a great player and his potential was nowhere close to Marvin's. Coach Williams had to know that Marvin was a possible one and done because Marvin contemplated going in the draft with Smoove and Howard. So how is it that this guy goes to the bench and doesn't push himself to be made a starter? It worked out that way because he didn't care. I pointed this out 6 years ago and people treated me as if I was making something up. No... Marvin's whole life has revolved around him getting wtihout putting any effort out. Why should his pro career change that? We drafted him number 2 ahead of guys who had to work hard and prove that they belonged. We made him a starter over guys who had to work for their spot and watch it get taken away. We kept him as a starter over a guy who was clearly a harder worker and a more efficient player.

So when does the charity end?

Even now we have a group on the board saying " I want to see him under a new caoch." So now, the Charity givers are saying " It's Woody's fault". It's not Woody's fault. It's Marvin. It is who he has been his whole life. He will not lift a finger to better himself on the court.

We hear about offseasons where guys like Jordan would go and work out with physical trainers who pushed them and then would challenge himself by playing young great players. Jordan was about HIS BUSINESS. Even Smoove does some summer stuff to get better. Why is it that Marvin always comes back out of shape? Because he's still trying to get a degree?

I don't down education one bit. But Marvin, you are a Millionaire. You have time to go back and get your education when your career is over. Why not work on your trade now???

[Diesel]

We just have to disagree big time on this one. What needs to change 1st and foremost is our PG play. If we get the same play out of the PG without adding a superstar in a trade, we will have the same results next season. Quite possibly worse IMO.

So now, it's the PGs fault?

Why is it that Horf, JJ, JSmoove all do well with our PGs and Marvin doesn't?

Did you notice how Marvin improved in his contract year and the year after his contract year (this past year) he was exceptionally bad?

IF it's the PG's fault, how do you explain that?

The PGs were more friendly during Marvin's contract year?

Maybe Acie Law is the reason why Marvin was so good!!!!

Bring Acie Back!!

Bring Acie Back!!!

Or maybe...

Marvin just sucks because he just don't care?

[NineOhTheRino]

I think we fans often want players to be great more than players wants to be great. I hate to always interject football but that's my #1 sport and I know many here also follow the Falcons as well. Marvin is the Hawks version of MV7. Every year we MV7 fans found someone new to blame for why our favorite QB struggled. Head coach, offensive play calling, offensive line, wide receivers...etc In the end we were all shocked to learn that our favorite QB just didn't give a s***.

Sometimes we fans have to wake up and realized that just because we take this seriously that 'Player X' could just look at it as a way to get cheddar. I guarantee everyone here that Marvin could care less about losing a playoff game by 43 points. I say you are what you are in this world and Marvin is just another mediocre basketball player that's happy as long as the check clears.

Edited June 7, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[Joker]

I think we fans often want players to be great more than players wants to be great. I hate to always interject football but that's my #1 sport and I know many here also follow the Falcons as well. Marvin is the Hawks version of MV7. Every year we MV7 fans found someone new to blame for why our favorite QB struggled. Head coach, offensive play calling, offensive line, wide receivers, DA's, pitbulls...etc In the end we were all shocked to learn that our favorite QB just didn't give a s***.

Sometimes we fans have to wake up and realized that just because we take this seriously that 'Player X' could just look at it as a way to get cheddar. I guarantee everyone here that Marvin could care less about losing a playoff game by 43 points. I say you are what you are in this world and Marvin is just another mediocre basketball player that's happy as long as the check clears.

It's hard to compare anyone to Vick. He could have been GOAT for Football but even in failure. He was an impact player and was the damn team by himself. Of course that was not enough to win a title, because to win a title, you need to work twice as hard as your opponent. The water-boy worked harder than Michael. He's like the wealthy man's version of Williams with criminal record. I believe if Vick worked hard with his impressive talents, he could still be a great QB but his time has passed for being a potential GOAT.

Edited June 7, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[Buzzard]

So now, it's the PGs fault?

Why is it that Horf, JJ, JSmoove all do well with our PGs and Marvin doesn't?

Did you notice how Marvin improved in his contract year and the year after his contract year (this past year) he was exceptionally bad?

IF it's the PG's fault, how do you explain that?

The PGs were more friendly during Marvin's contract year?

Maybe Acie Law is the reason why Marvin was so good!!!!

Bring Acie Back!!

Bring Acie Back!!!

Or maybe...

Marvin just sucks because he just don't care?

I am not saying we are not weak at the SF position. We are weak at PF and Center also when matched up against the likes of Howard and Bosh. But you said adamantly SF needs to be changed or we will be horrible. You do make it out to be a blame game when you say things like this (Had Marvin been better, we would have had better effort from the others.) . I think PG is the position that needs to be changed more than anything else; and if I can only fix one position this off season, PG is it.

Our starting PG played just as weak; and at times weaker, than our starting SF. PG is much more critical when trying to get to the next level than SF IMO; unless of course we can figure out a way to get the likes of Lebron.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Buzzard

[Joker]

I am not saying we are not weak at the SF position. We are weak at PF and Center also when matched up against the likes of Howard and Bosh. But you said adamantly SF needs to be changed or we will be horrible. You do make it out to be a blame game when you say things like this Had Marvin been better, we would have had better effort from the others. I think PG is the position that needs to be changed more than anything else; and if I can only fix one position this off season, PG is it.

Our starting PG played just as weak; and at times weaker, than our starting SF. PG is much more critical when trying to get to the next level than SF IMO; unless of course we can figure out a way to get the likes of Lebron.

:thumbsdownsmileyanim:

This one might be the most out of place post in this thread.

[NineOhTheRino]

It's hard to compare anyone to Vick. He could have been GOAT for Football but even in failure. He was an impact player and was the damn team by himself. Of course that was not enough to win a title, because to win a title, you need to work twice as hard as your opponent. The water-boy worked harder than Michael. He's like the wealthy man's version of Williams with criminal record. I believe if Vick worked hard with his impressive talents, he could still be a great QB but his time has passed for being a potential GOAT.

if he had 1/4 of Ray Allen's work ethic he would have been damn near unstoppable. He often looked unstoppable but that was usually against a bad defense. Put Vick up against a prepared defense and it was game over for the Falcons.

Edited June 7, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[Buzzard]

:thumbsdownsmileyanim:

This one might be the most out of place post in this thread.

Yea if you take the context out of it "when matched up against the likes of Howard and Bosh". Unless you think those are really good matchups for us? Which if you do, you need to change your name to "nbasuperstar40_WHO_KNOWS_NOTHING_ABOUT_MATCHUPS"

Edited June 7, 2010 by Buzzard

[Joker]

if he had 1/4 of Ray Allen's work ethic he would have been damn near unstoppable. He often looked unstoppable but that was usually against a bad defense. Put Vick up against a prepared defense and it was game over over for the Falcons.

Yep, he had some quality games v. good defenses but any defense that was very good or elite. Michael looked like s***. I remember those Eagles games, which before the Giants came along was the only elite defense in the NFC They would make Vick look like the Hawks v. the Magic in this years playoffs.

[Joker]

Yea if you take the context out of it "when macthed up against the likes of Howard and Bosh". Unless you think those are really good matchups for us? Which if you do, you need to change your name to "nbasuperstar40_WHO_KNOWS_NOTHING_ABOUT_MATCHUPS"

We dominated Bosh, in fact Horford is a better PF than Bosh. Go look at the versus stats. I understand Howard, that's obvious. Horford game is built around athleticism, basketball IQ, strength, and hustle. Dwight game is built around the same thing sans offensive IQ but is bigger, taller, stronger, and more athletic than Horford. That's basically makes Horford useless v. Howard comparatively. As for Bosh, he sucks v. Horford or Smith, he's better v. Smith because Smith can stay will his quickness. Versus Al, he's in deep s***.

Edited June 7, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[Buzzard]

We dominated Bosh, in fact Horford is a better PF than Bosh. Go look at the versus stats. I understand Howard, that's obvious. Horford game is built around athleticism, basketball IQ, strength, and hustle. Dwight game is built around the same thing sans offensive IQ but is bigger, taller, stronger, and more athletic than Horford. That's basically makes Horford useless v. Howard comparatively. As for Bosh, he sucks v. Horford or Smith, he's better v. Smith because Smith can stay will his quickness. Versus Al, he's in deep s***.

The point was Center...Howard vs Horf...PF Bosh vs Smoove = bad matchups. Bosh had a bad season against us as did Smoove vs Toronto. Horf vs Howard is not even a close call. Point is we are weak when matched up like this. Nothing more; nothing less; and it is not Marvins fault which is what Diesel is trying to say in no uncertain terms with this quote:

Had Marvin been better, we would have had better effort from the others.

IMO PG is the man who gets and keeps everyone involved. If we are going to blame anyone, which I did not do, for our team not being involved and/or playing without effort, it starts with the coach and PG; not the SF lol. And to say our SF is our weakest position is totally ignoring how weak Bibby was this season. PG or SF, I will take better PG play vs SF play all day long as our most needed improvement.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Buzzard

[lethalweapon3]

Heading toward three pages of back-and-forth and the only mentions of "Small Forwards Worth a D@mm" or "Small Forwards Who Will Give a D@mm" to pursue are T-Mac and (if they want to return) Childress and Kleiza?

Let's leave the psychoanalysis to Dr. Joyce Brothers.

IF Marvin doesn't cut it, WHO do y'all want starting at the 3 next season, and HOW do we get them?

~lw3

[Guest Walter]

When he lost his 4th quarter minutes to Jamal, instead of work harder, prove to the coach that I am a key component and bust his *ss, what did he do? He sat on the bench, smiled, he had that stupid towel over his head looking like a limped legged hobo and was okay with what transpired.

I can't think of a player in the league who I would be more surprised with if they complained to the media about a loss of PT than MW. I'm not a big fan of a player using the media to lodge a complaint or ask for a trade but if MW were to do that I would be greatly, pleasantly shocked. He would of course have to work to earn it, something I don't think he has had to do with the Hawks to date, but a little desire shown in the form of his being upset about a loss of PT would suggest he gives a damn and might work like it.

W

[Buzzard]

Heading toward three pages of back-and-forth and the only mentions of "Small Forwards Worth a D@mm" or "Small Forwards Who Will Give a D@mm" to pursue are T-Mac and (if they want to return) Childress and Kleiza?

Let's leave the psychoanalysis to Dr. Joyce Brothers.

IF Marvin doesn't cut it, WHO do y'all want starting at the 3 next season, and HOW do we get them?

~lw3

You make solid points and I do not know for certain if any of these three would be a significant upgade over a whole season. But my order of preference would be:

1-Take a shot at TMac for a reasonable contract but nothing elaborate. Those days are over for him IMO.

2-Chilz, I always liked his hustle and he can play the 2 in a pinch.

3-Kleiza, don't know enough about him to put him ahead of the other two.

[Joker]

The point was Center...Howard vs Horf...PF Bosh vs Smoove = bad matchups. Bosh had a bad season against us as did Smoove vs Toronto. Horf vs Howard is not even a close call. Point is we are weak when matched up like this. Nothing more; nothing less; and it is not Marvins fault which is what Diesel is trying to say in no uncertain terms with this quote:

Had Marvin been better, we would have had better effort from the others.

IMO PG is the man who gets and keeps everyone involved. If we are going to blame anyone, which I did not do, for our team not being involved and/or playing without effort, it starts with the coach and PG; not the SF lol. And to say our SF is our weakest position is totally ignoring how weak Bibby was this season. PG or SF, I will take better PG play vs SF play all day long as our most needed improvement.

I don't think many outside of a few who have history saying this feels like Marvin is a the weaklink. That was Bibby and depending on the matchup, other players. But Marvin has been disappointing that's true in sense. I also had a major typo when I comparing the match-up with Smith/Bosh. I can't recall what I said but what I meant to say is that Bosh is far too quick for Smith to guard. He gives Smith problems which you further stated. My thing is we normally place Smith on Bargs and Horford on Bosh since Bargs is slow and Smith can defend him outside of the paint. Only on switches do you see match-ups like Bosh/Smith.

[HAWKSFAN89]

I just want the greek fro back in A-Town. Starting.