Why the 6th year that ATL only can offer has to be important to JJ

[sturt]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/13563027/while-draft-goes-on-teams-continue-to-maneuver-for-real-prize? tag=headlines;nba

"LeBron's 25 years old," Falk said. "So does he think at age 30 he's not going to be able to play anymore? No. Secondly, Cleveland can pay him 2.5 percent more per year and he pays tax on that. He goes to Miami with no state taxes, and he'll make 5 percent more. So there's no home-court advantage. ... It's minimal. There's an advantage for Joe Johnson or another guy who's 29 years old. It's not an advantage to a guy who's 25."

Also of interest...

The Bulls ($30 million of cap room) are now second only to the Knicks ($34 million) in the chase for cap space, assuming the 2010-11 cap holds firm at the league-estimated $56.1 million. Then come the Heat ($29 million) and the Nets ($27 million), both of whom fell short in serious efforts to clear more space and keep up with the Joneses -- or Reinsdorfs, if you will. Miami's push to unload Michael Beasley and his $4.9 million salary fell through, as did the Nets' attempts to deal Devin Harris ($9 million). All of this could change in the coming days and weeks, but this is where we stand now: The Knicks, Bulls and Heat have room for two max players. The Nets hope LeBron signs a two-year extension with Cleveland and then joins them in Brooklyn in 2012.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The only problem I see . . . is if someone offers JJ the MAX over 5 years, and the Hawks 6 year offer is only modestly better, JJ may opt to leave the money on the table for us, and play somewhere else.

I'm not quite sure what the max JJ can get from someone else on a 5 year deal. Say it's 5 yrs - 100 million. If the Hawks countered that with a 6 year - 105 million deal, would the extra 5 million over the life of the contract be enough to get JJ to stay, or would he opt to take the 5 year deal, because he'll make more money in the short term?

I think that's the main question. That, and who actually goes after JJ.

[Buzzard]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/13563027/while-draft-goes-on-teams-continue-to-maneuver-for-real-prize? tag=headlines;nba

Also of interest...

The only reason its important IMO is it will be his last max contract. Problem with JJ is same as when he was with the Suns, he gets pissed and leaves no mater what. Nash, Amare, the Matrix, and JJ would have been much stronger for a run at a title than same team minus JJ.

I have always felt fortunate we got him; but honestly I have never really understood the reason why. Could you imagine a 25 yr old Lebron, Wade, or Kobe leaving that team for us if contracts where equal?

Edited June 25, 2010 by Buzzard

[AHF]

The only problem I see . . . is if someone offers JJ the MAX over 5 years, and the Hawks 6 year offer is only modestly better, JJ may opt to leave the money on the table for us, and play somewhere else.

I'm not quite sure what the max JJ can get from someone else on a 5 year deal. Say it's 5 yrs - 100 million. If the Hawks countered that with a 6 year - 105 million deal, would the extra 5 million over the life of the contract be enough to get JJ to stay, or would he opt to take the 5 year deal, because he'll make more money in the short term?

I think that's the main question. That, and who actually goes after JJ.

In your hypothetical, of course he would take the 5 year, 20M deal. It pays $20M/year while our deal pays $17.5M/year. A sixth year at $5M isn't worth much to him.

A tougher choice would be something like:

5 years, $100M

6 years, $113M

Now you are looking at another 13M that he would never be able to get as a mid-30s vet. At least it is a choice that offers some significant upside. If JJ is in the league after this deal, he has to figure he can close to $5M for sure and with a good shot at significantly more than that if he ages like Ray Allen. A $105M deal could very realistically cost him money even before the tax issue because (a) the time value of money means that less dollars in his pocket at the front of contract means less value for the contract and (b) as a FA in year 6, he probably thinks he will be worth significantly more than that since a guy like Reggie Miller was getting $12M/year at age 37.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The only reason its important IMO is it will be his last max contract. Problem with JJ is same as when he was with the Suns, he gets pissed and leaves no mater what. Nash, Amare, the Matrix, and JJ would have been much stronger for a run at a title than same team minus JJ.

I have always felt fortunate we got him; but honestly I have never really understood the reason why. Could you imagine a 25 yr old Lebron, Wade, or Kobe leaving that team for us if contracts where equal?

Of course they would've left.

Remember, Phoenix initially was offering JJ a 5 yr - 45 mill deal. We come along, and offer him a 5 yr - 70 mill deal, with a 20 mill payment in that 1st year, to really entice him to come here.

It wasn't until the last minute, that Phoenix upped their offer to something like 6 yrs - 70 million. But by that time, we had wooed him to the point that he was ready to leave.

- it was his first big money contract

- he goes from 3 mill in 04 - 05 . . to 20 mill in 05 - 06

- he gets to be the star of the team

- he gets to play close to home

Winning is great, but the NBA is also a business. And with JJ being so young, the money took precedent over winning. And it would have for those other guys too, if they were in the exact same situation as JJ.

That's why the Lakers shipped Eddie Jones out of LA to give more time to Kobe. Once he proved his worth to the team, they didn't even hesitate to pay that man his first big money deal.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

In your hypothetical, of course he would take the 5 year, 20M deal. It pays $20M/year while our deal pays $17.5M/year. A sixth year at $5M isn't worth much to him.

A tougher choice would be something like:

5 years, $100M

6 years, $113M

Now you are looking at another 13M that he would never be able to get as a mid-30s vet. At least it is a choice that offers some significant upside. If JJ is in the league after this deal, he has to figure he can close to $5M for sure and with a good shot at significantly more than that if he ages like Ray Allen. A $105M deal could very realistically cost him money even before the tax issue because (a) the time value of money means that less dollars in his pocket at the front of contract means less value for the contract and (b) as a FA in year 6, he probably thinks he will be worth significantly more than that since a guy like Reggie Miller was getting $12M/year at age 37.

You're right on point. That 6 yr contract has to be enough over whatever 5 year deal he can get, to at least make him blink. And it's important that if we do offer him a 6 year deal, that we don't low ball him.

Don't offer something weak, like a 6 yr - 90 mill deal. It has to at least start at 5/85 or 6/100 in my opinion.

The other thing to possibly worry about, are these other teams that are way under the cap possibly frontloading a deal for JJ. If they give him the maximum payout of his contract in that first year, with the following years descending in value, that could be a problem as wel. But only a few teams are even capable of doing that.

[Buzzard]

Of course they would've left.

Remember, Phoenix initially was offering JJ a 5 yr - 45 mill deal. We come along, and offer him a 5 yr - 70 mill deal, with a 20 mill payment in that 1st year, to really entice him to come here.

It wasn't until the last minute, that Phoenix upped their offer to something like 6 yrs - 70 million. But by that time, we had wooed him to the point that he was ready to leave.

- it was his first big money contract

- he goes from 3 mill in 04 - 05 . . to 20 mill in 05 - 06

- he gets to be the star of the team

- he gets to play close to home

Winning is great, but the NBA is also a business. And with JJ being so young, the money took precedent over winning. And it would have for those other guys too, if they were in the exact same situation as JJ.

That's why the Lakers shipped Eddie Jones out of LA to give more time to Kobe. Once he proved his worth to the team, they didn't even hesitate to pay that man his first big money deal.

You live in your world I will be happy to stay in mine. All things being equal, if Kobe, Wade, or Lebron were getting exact same offers as we were giving and no other team was offering more, no doubt in my mind they stay with Nash, Amare, and Matrix. I do not care if it was the last second that Phoenix matched our offer. Winning was at that time no where near as important to JJ as it has always been to that trio and this is what befuddles the hell out of me when it comes to JJ...

He lets emotions rule his business and career decisions; and that should be scary for any team that wants to sign or resign him.

[MaceCase]

You live in your world I will be happy to stay in mine. All things being equal, if Kobe, Wade, or Lebron were getting exact same offers as we were giving and no other team was offering more, no doubt in my mind they stay with Nash, Amare, and Matrix. I do not care if it was the last second that Phoenix matched our offer. Winning was at that time no where near as important to JJ as it has always been to that trio and this is what befuddles the hell out of me when it comes to JJ...

He lets emotions rule his business and career decisions; and that should be scary for any team that wants to sign or resign him.

I'm sorry to inform your world but I clearly remember Kobe having a distinct dislike over not being the alpha dog in LA to the point he forced the collapse of a dynasty. Joe didn't only leave for the money but also to be the man, being 4th on the pecking order of that Phoenix team is not something any young player not named Marvin necessarily wants for themselves. All those players you mentioned are the top dogs on their respective teams and are even talking now about not necessarily joining each other due to their egos. Pretty much Lebron and Wade are trying to recruit Bosh to go be their Robin but then Bosh had the nerve to say he wants to be the man himself. You get that? They want to win but they want to be looked at as the man at the same time.

I just don't get your world, Buzz ,but in the real world most superstar talents want to be both paid like the man and treated like the man. You'd just have a hard time arguing to me that any of these guys grew up wanting to be Pippen and not Jordan. Sure in their 30s they sometimes reverse that thinking but at 24? Please.

[sturt]

Off-topic.... Buzzard, I see you live in Cincy... how are the people you rub elbows with taking the news that WLW's McConnell is off to Chicago?

[Buzzard]

Off-topic.... Buzzard, I see you live in Cincy... how are the people you rub elbows with taking the news that WLW's McConnell is off to Chicago?

Chicago is his dream job. No one wants to lose him; but everyone I have heard talk wishes him well.

[Buzzard]

I'm sorry to inform your world but I clearly remember Kobe having a distinct dislike over not being the alpha dog in LA to the point he forced the collapse of a dynasty. Joe didn't only leave for the money but also to be the man, being 4th on the pecking order of that Phoenix team is not something any young player not named Marvin necessarily wants for themselves. All those players you mentioned are the top dogs on their respective teams and are even talking now about not necessarily joining each other due to their egos. Pretty much Lebron and Wade are trying to recruit Bosh to go be their Robin but then Bosh had the nerve to say he wants to be the man himself. You get that? They want to win but they want to be looked at as the man at the same time.

I just don't get your world, Buzz ,but in the real world most superstar talents want to be both paid like the man and treated like the man. You'd just have a hard time arguing to me that any of these guys grew up wanting to be Pippen and not Jordan. Sure in their 30s they sometimes reverse that thinking but at 24? Please.

OK here is your world. Kobe, LeBron, and Wade do not talk constantly about wanting to win championships. All they talk about is being top dog and getting paid. Sorry man but championships is all those guys do talk about.

Kobe and Shaq was a winner but Shaq and Kobe clashed severely. Whether you know this or not, Kobe is a gym rat and lazy people get on his last nerve. While Shaq was out making movies and showing up 20 to 30lbs overweight; Kobe shows up in game shape day one every year. Then throw in the fact Shaq hit on his wife at a party and you are lucky as hell they could be in the same locker room at all; much less long enough to win three rings together.

LeBron has held the Cavs at ransom since being there with only one goal in mind ... his famous quote "I am a winner" should be enough to convince you of his intentions.

Wade is doing the same as LeBron to Miami as I type this up.

When has JJ ever demanded anything other than to be traded away from a championship contender? Now he is with us and we are only a tweak and/or coach away from contending as well. Wonder what he will do?

Your world is different than mine because you try to put JJ in the same company as those three. Its not even close from a championship drive standpoint; much less a talent standpoint.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Buzzard

[MaceCase]

Yea Buzz, Shaq was so damn lazy that it lead him to three rings and finals MVPs. It really irked the "gym rat" that all his work still meant he was second fiddle. I love the revisionist history, all of a sudden Kobe was the victim, he wasn't throwing shade at Shaq in the middle of his rape case talking about "I should have paid her off", he wasn't telling management he would sign with the Clippers if Shaq was still on the team, he didn't force one of the greatest coaches in the league to retire and write a book talking about how Kobe was uncoachable, he didn't sign an extension with the Lakers that's going to pay him 30 million at the age of 36. And yes Lebron is more known for being a "winner" than wanting to be "the first billionaire athlete" and no Wade is not on record talking about the 6th year and pay increases the Heat can offer him saying "30 million dollars matters to anyone, even Bill Gates." Yea all these guys are all about winning that they are all willing to give up the Max that all these teams have been struggling to pay them. I truly hate how anytime you mention a superstar and Joe in the same sentence some smart guy is always quick to say "don't mention Joe with player X" at least I can say Joe is on record saying he doesn't mind being a second option, I'm still waiting for the rest of those guys to say the same.

[Buzzard]

Yea Buzz, Shaq was so damn lazy that it lead him to three rings and finals MVPs. It really irked the "gym rat" that all his work still meant he was second fiddle. I love the revisionist history, all of a sudden Kobe was the victim, he wasn't throwing shade at Shaq in the middle of his rape case talking about "I should have paid her off", he wasn't telling management he would sign with the Clippers if Shaq was still on the team, he didn't force one of the greatest coaches in the league to retire and write a book talking about how Kobe was uncoachable, he didn't sign an extension with the Lakers that's going to pay him 30 million at the age of 36.

And yes Lebron is more known for being a "winner" than wanting to be "the first billionaire athlete"

and no Wade is not on record talking about the 6th year and pay increases the Heat can offer him saying "30 million dollars matters to anyone, even Bill Gates."

Yea all these guys are all about winning that they are all willing to give up the Max that all these teams have been struggling to pay them. I truly hate how anytime you mention a superstar and Joe in the same sentence some smart guy is always quick to say "don't mention Joe with player X" at least I can say Joe is on record saying he doesn't mind being a second option, I'm still waiting for the rest of those guys to say the same.

I guess you are right in your mind and that is OK Crawman. But I do know they clashed. It is well known throughout the league Shaq does not show up in game shape year in and year out; and Kobe is a gym rat who does. And it was published that Shaq hit on Kobes wife; as well as Shaq saying he felt like Kobe through him under the bus for making that public. Shaq had to explain that to his wife and the media.

His wife has since divorced him for other infidelities. Does not matter who is right or wrong, Kobe or Shaq, they did not like each other at all; but still they BOTH managed to put personal differences aside long enough to win three rings. And that is how it was. You can revise it to be all Kobes fault if you like; but I do not see it that way. If the guy hit on my wife I would not want him in my locker room; and if I hit on someones wife and she told her husband about it, I would not want to be in his locker room either.

All things being equal they all four want their paydays but you would rather they go on record saying I am willing to be second fiddle than go on record that they all want rings. Give me the guy whose primary goal is winning championships; you can have the willing second fiddle dude LMAO. If JJ stays with us or goes to a contender, that will show me his goal is championships as well as paydays. You think Wade, LeBron, and Kobe will be vying for championships as well?

All of them can choose, except Kobe, who they want to play for. If any end up playing on a 2nd tier playoff team; all things being equal, that will show me which is more important.

[MaceCase]

Buzz, I'm on my iPhone so I'm having trouble googling some of your claims. From memory, I have zero recollection of Shaq ever hitting on Kobe's wife, perhaps he did but I don't remember hearing or reading that. Now I do remember Karl Malone hitting on Kobe's wife but not Shaq and I remember Shaq feeling like he was thrown under the bus because Kobe thought it wise telling the police he should of paid off his rape victim like Shaq does with his mistresses. Now again, I remember the Lakers being a dominant dynasty and Mr. Winner felt that wasn't important enough so he gave the Lakers an ultimatum during his free agency to either trade Shaq or he was going to sign across the hall with a franchise associated with winning championships. Now let's look at your logic, you are backing the guy who didn't want championships if it meant he was second fiddle over the guy who's willing to be second fiddle if it means winning championships. Wow, just wow. That's one hell of a PR team they got out there in LA, simply rewriting history. Say all you want about Joe but you don't know Jack. To say a guy is all about money and not winning because he's willing to entertain signing as a second option to a superstar in another city than remain the first option for a franchise that is not showing any willingness or apptitude for actually contending based on your bias and what he did as 24 year old is rather comical. Again, I don't see any of these "winners" looking to take pay cuts. How come we're not in the running for ANY of these guys? Doesn't our core offer all those other guys a chance at winning? What exactly is it that's keeping them from this core that's a "tweak and a coach" away? Guess it ain't called greed if you're a "winner".