Aldridge: Hawks trying to sell Joe on contender status.

[mrhonline]

The economy has also tanked during this CBA. Will it be as bad in 6 years as it is now? History says "no" but we don't know. I know my business's modeling says things will be a lot better.

Discussion for another time and another board, no?

Either way, I don't expect sudden and dramatic growth.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Al could make his "demand" either way. Keeping JJ actually makes it harder to bring in a center because of the lack of financial flexibility.

You bring in that center via a trade. Or you try to acquire one via the MLE.

Keeping JJ keeps a significant talent piece intact for potential trades. But you shed the lesser expiring contracts to gain that financial flexibility, just like everybody else around the league does.

Even if we lost a Horford, we could still be in position to get a center, still have Smoove at PF, and still have JJ. Or you could use JJ himself, to trade for that center, and keep Horford. It doesn't matter how you want to do it. Just as long as we have talent here when we do acquire a center.

Star talent and expiring contracts are the most precious trade pieces in the NBA. And they're also important when it comes to financial flexibility. The reason why it took the Knicks so long to shed payroll, is because they had too many mediocre long term contracts of players that nobody wanted. Conversely, the reason why Washington was able to shed bigger contracts like Butler and Jamison so quickly, is because contending teams saw value in those players, and weren't afraid to trade for them, despite their contract.

It is much easier to move money around when you have star or borderline star players with sizeable contracts, than it is to move people who are role players that no one sees true value in.

[AHF]

Discussion for another time and another board, no?

Either way, I don't expect sudden and dramatic growth.

For our industry, we see the significant growth a few years down the line. Not for the immediate future.

[AHF]

Al could make his "demand" either way. Keeping JJ actually makes it harder to bring in a center because of the lack of financial flexibility.

Which is why it might be nice to develop a young center on a cheap budget. Just saying....

[Sothron]

I disagree here. You honestly don't think we could be a much better team without Woody running the offense? we will actually be a running team with Drew I believe orchestrating the offense. Just look how ISO we were in the Orlando series with ZERO ball movement. We could of beaten Orlando with a REAL gameplan on offense. This team simply tuned out Woody's plan of 'just let them play' on offense. Everyone on our team will be better next year and with a new coach actually running offensive sets we can only get better and more cohesive. We can definitely make it past the second round with this team.

Here's what you have to do to get past the second round: you have to beat a top four team in your conference to get to the conference finals let alone the actual Finals. The Hawks have ZERO chance of beating any top team in the East in a seven game playoff series. The MOST Drew will do with the current roster is actually scratch out a win or two in the second round. That's it.

[exodus]

It's almost like people don't know the history of this league. Teams don't improve by maximizing on every draft pick that isn't a lottery pick. Even the Spurs ( the team that maximizes the draft the best ) needed to basically tank a season, so that they could get lucky and acquire Tim Duncan, who ended up being the cornerstone of the franchise. And along with their draft picks, they were able to trade for the right type of talent to surround Duncan.

But no other team even comes close to what the Spurs do via the draft. The vast majority of teams get better by trading talent for talent. Even if it's disgruntled talent on a bad team. Talents on bad teams . . like a Monta Ellis, Danny Granger, Al Jefferson . . and possibly down the road like an Andre Iguodala or Gilbert Arenas will all be traded for, if those guys continue to be productive players that could help a contending team. They'll team with a star player already in place to make the squad better.

That's the general history of the league.

I am not buying this. The best teams generally draft their best players and fill in the roster around them. LA drafted Kobe. Miami drafted Wade. The Spurs were a contender before Duncan even got there because they drafted Robinson. They had the best record in the league one year in the mid-90s. After getting Duncan they got their key pieces (Parker and Ginobili) through the draft. Orlando drafted Howard.

Going back Chicago drafted Jordan and Pippen. Boston drafted Bird and got McHale/Parish in a draft day deal. LA drafted Magic. Houston drafted Hakeem. The Pistons drafted Isiah (and Dumars i believe).

That is the vast majority of titles over the past 30 years right there. When you have the chance to draft stars you need to take advantage of it. The Hawks didn't and that is why they are in a bind now.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Here's what you have to do to get past the second round: you have to beat a top four team in your conference to get to the conference finals let alone the actual Finals. The Hawks have ZERO chance of beating any top team in the East in a seven game playoff series. The MOST Drew will do with the current roster is actually scratch out a win or two in the second round. That's it.

That's straight BS. Everyone knows that Orlando was the absolute worst possible matchup for us last year. They were the only team in the league that consistently dominated us like that.

While Boston or Cleveland may have beaten us in the 2nd round last year, our confidence against those 2 teams especially would've been sky high. Especially against Boston, who all season had no answer for JJ and Jamal. Even with the Cavs, the Hawks basically blew 2 games both home and away against them. But against the Magic, they basically kicked our azz 3 times, before we were finally able to break through at home ( only because they had an off shooting night ).

So how far do we get WITHOUT JJ here, if the best we can do is win one or two games in the 2nd round? Do we even get out of the 1st round? Do we even make the playoffs? And if either of those scenarios happen, how many "so-called" fans stay loyal to the Hawks while they try to re-tool the team?

[mrhonline]

When you have the chance to draft stars you need to take advantage of it. The Hawks didn't and that is why they are in a bind now.

Ding ding ding.

[Sothron]

That's straight BS. Everyone knows that Orlando was the absolute worst possible matchup for us last year. They were the only team in the league that consistently dominated us like that.

While Boston or Cleveland may have beaten us in the 2nd round last year, our confidence against those 2 teams especially would've been sky high. Especially against Boston, who all season had no answer for JJ and Jamal. Even with the Cavs, the Hawks basically blew 2 games both home and away against them. But against the Magic, they basically kicked our azz 3 times, before we were finally able to break through at home ( only because they had an off shooting night ).

So how far do we get WITHOUT JJ here, if the best we can do is win one or two games in the 2nd round? Do we even get out of the 1st round? Do we even make the playoffs? And if either of those scenarios happen, how many "so-called" fans stay loyal to the Hawks while they try to re-tool the team?

We aren't beating Boston, Orlando or wherever Lebron goes in a seven game playoff series. Zero chance. We don't have the talent or the matchups to beat those teams in a seven game playoff series.

As for the last part, I don't know if you directed that at me but check my sig. I've been a fan of the Hawks my entire life and have been posting on Hawk fan sites since I got on the internet. Any Hawks fan that survived the early 2000's can make it through a rebuilding effort w/o Joe.

I'd rather lose Joe for nothing than pay him 120 million to lock ourselves into a second round exit playoff team.

[AHF]

Boston drafted Bird and got McHale/Parish in a draft day deal. LA drafted Magic. Houston drafted Hakeem. The Pistons drafted Isiah (and Dumars i believe).

Interesting how many of these were draft day deals:

McHale

Parish

Pippen

Kobe

[99PROBL3MS]

I think one thing we fail to mention while crunching numbers is that JJ being here is one of the most (and probably the most) enticing things about potential acquisitionns whether it be through trades or free agency. As sturt pointing out, if JJs contract was so sorely out of place, all the other teams that covet him would have walked away the moment Atlanta's max offer became eminent. I could see a Melo agreeing to be traded here if the opportunity to play with JJ presents itself. Smoove and Horford are great young players but I don't know how much of a draw they would be without JJ.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I am not buying this. The best teams generally draft their best players and fill in the roster around them. LA drafted Kobe. Miami drafted Wade. The Spurs were a contender before Duncan even got there because they drafted Robinson. They had the best record in the league one year in the mid-90s. After getting Duncan they got their key pieces (Parker and Ginobili) through the draft. Orlando drafted Howard.

Going back Chicago drafted Jordan and Pippen. Boston drafted Bird and got McHale/Parish in a draft day deal. LA drafted Magic. Houston drafted Hakeem. The Pistons drafted Isiah (and Dumars i believe).

That is the vast majority of titles over the past 30 years right there. When you have the chance to draft stars you need to take advantage of it. The Hawks didn't and that is why they are in a bind now.

LA didn't draft Kobe. They traded a talent that they had ( Vlade Divac ) and sent him to Charlotte in order to acquire Kobe. Charlotte needed a center, but Jerry West saw talent in Kobe ( which is why he was picked #13 )

And all of those teams that you talked about drafting Hall of Famers, basically had to see their team go into the tank, in order to acquire that talent.

* Chicago before Jordan: 27 - 55

* Boston before Bird: 29 - 53

* Lakers before Magic: 47 - 35 ( but they got the #1 pick via the New Orleans Jazz giving the Lakers 3 draft picks for Gail Goodrich 2 years earlier. The Jazz finished last in the NBA in 78 - 79, enabling the Lakers to pick Magic )

* Houston before Olajuwon: 29 - 53

* Detroit before Isaiah: 21 - 61

* Orlando before Howard: 21 - 61

I agree that when you have the chance to draft stars, you need to take advantage of it. Which is why people still talk about Marvin Williams over Chris Paul. But all of those teams that you named, also traded for people and brought them in, so that they could achieve championship greatness. Hell . . even we had to trade for Joe Johnson initially. And most of the teams in the modern era had to trade for talented stars, in order for them to achieve greatness.

So unless people want to completely blow things up, tank the season, and hopefully get the #1 pick in the draft . . . how else is this team supposed to improve, if they don't either develop their talent, or trade the talent they already have to get an upgrade?

[AHF]

LA didn't draft Kobe. They traded a talent that they had ( Vlade Divac ) and sent him to Charlotte in order to acquire Kobe.

Kobe was selected for them in the draft. Boston should get credit for drafting Rondo and LA should get credit for drafting Kobe. If Kobe was already playing for Charlotte, he woudln't have come so cheap. Without the downside risk of the draft pick busting, it is tougher to acquire these types of players.

[Sothron]

Kobe had told everyone he was only playing for the Lakers and the Hornets took him anyways to get something for the pick. I remember the draft when they took him and how people were going nuts because the Hornets had dared to do it.

[Johnnybravo4]

Interesting how many of these were draft day deals:

McHale

Parish

Pippen

Kobe

So was Nique.

I have posted an interesting scenerio above.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Kobe was selected for them in the draft. Boston should get credit for drafting Rondo and LA should get credit for drafting Kobe. If Kobe was already playing for Charlotte, he woudln't have come so cheap. Without the downside risk of the draft pick busting, it is tougher to acquire these types of players.

True. Kobe was selected for them in the draft . . because Charlotte wanted Divac. And LA should get credit for drafting Kobe. But there have been far too many examples of star players coming to a contending team, and that team getting to the next level because of that move.

A guy like Lebron needed help. The Cavs simply traded for the wrong player. By them not trading for Amare, it may cost them Lebron altogether.

[Joker]

True. Kobe was selected for them in the draft . . because Charlotte wanted Divac. And LA should get credit for drafting Kobe. But there have been far too many examples of star players coming to a contending team, and that team getting to the next level because of that move.

A guy like Lebron needed help. The Cavs simply traded for the wrong player. By them not trading for Amare, it may cost them Lebron altogether.

No they shouldn't the Sixers wanted to draft Kobe over A.I. but Kobe said don't bother, I am playing for the Lakers. Brandon Roy did the samething to us.

They tried to get Amare, but the Suns decided to keep him at the last moment.

Edited July 1, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[AHF]

A guy like Lebron needed help. The Cavs simply traded for the wrong player. By them not trading for Amare, it may cost them Lebron altogether.

What was the offer they were making for Amare? If they had the choice for the cost, you may absolutely be right.

[Guest]

You're looking at this from a cheap *ss perspective HF. Even our "cheap" owners ponied up the money to make our franchise winners. Bibby anyone? If the Hawks get a cheap *ss owner, then you can expect that regardless of who we have, he will try to fire sale and start from scratch. And then run the team "on the cheap" in order to suck up the profit from the league sharing (ala Sterling). However, an owner who wants to win something, will run the team well not on the cheap... That means maximizing your talent and setting bench marks for your team.

It was reported that our owners were willing to give Joe the large contract because...they won't have to pay it as they anticipate not being the owners in the future. That is the perspective I am taking, the real world. Not some made up fancy scenario with Bill Gates as owner.

The logic that our owners take on that perspective is just flat out wrong. Sure they won't have to "pay" the physical amount, but they will see the loss (or benefit in the strange perspective you are taking) in the value of the franchise. Just imagine two identical Franchises, the only difference is Franchise A has a payroll of $50 million while Franchise B has a payroll of $100 million. Everything else is equal, Forbes places the value of the Franchises the same (less payroll) and whatever dope ESPN analyst you want to mention says the teams are the same. Hell, even imagine they are in the same city and have the same demographic of fans. If Franchise A and B are both sold, which sells for more? Can we tell by how much?

The point is, its flawed to think you won't have to pay the entirety of the contract. Yes you will! A potential owner will adjust their bid accordingly. Diesel you are arguing a tangent, and I'm not going into that. You said you disagreed with me, while all I have been saying is the owners will end up paying for the contract either explicitly or implicitly. So are you telling me Franchise A and B will sell for the same? I doubt it, you are arguing about whether Joe will have a positive or negative impact. I haven't touched on that subject so I have no idea what you are disagreeing with me about.

[Joker]

What was the offer they were making for Amare? If they had the choice for the cost, you may absolutely be right.

Hickson and Big Z, but all of the team begged management not to do the deal and management finally craved in.